i'm 99.99% certain lance doped throughout his cycling career exactly the way USADA says.runninboy said:Ok first off How do you judge whether or not Lance doped in high school as a triathlete? Steroids run rampant through texas high school football, those same steroids would build the muscle for the swim and the bike. So you refuse to look at the possibility that Lance was taking steriods as many texas high school students did at the time. Why? wishful thinking?
Now on to Lemond. Many of us HAVE considered it. I did when i was reading Paul Kimmage's first book "a Rough ride". I considered it right up until i got to the chapter where Paul mentioned how he was not going to specifically name the dopers but instead would offer the one rider that he was sure never doped. Greg Lemond. Then he went on to explain how he came to that conclusion. When the guy leading the charge for clean cycling says the one person he would stake his reputation on being clean is Greg Lemond, most people tend to give that opinion considerable weight. Then when you look at some of the facts, Greg had fantastic VO2Max, far higher than Armstrong. Greg had successfully raced as a young junior, against some of the best cyclists in the Nation , then later the World and won. He immediately followed that up with high placings at the World's and the TDF. It has been a consistently high level of accomplishment.
Now because Armstrong is dirty, brave people on the internet are slinging mud Greg's way. Despite that, his contemporaries vouch for him, the leading anti doping activist vouches for him, only internet trolls continue to question his accomplishments. Just because he was an amazing athlete at a young age does not mean he doped.
Since you said you were a triathlete here is a little test for you. If a high school sophmore runs a best of 5:38 for the mile, is it possible for him to break the four minute mile the next year without drugs? Sound impossible?
Jim Ryun did just that. Made the Olympic team while still in high school. Ending up running just 3 seconds slower than the world mile record while still in high school 3:55. And he was totally clean. But because Lance is dirty you think everyone else is as well and it is simply not true
the point is not if lemond doped, everything might strongly suggest he didn't. Just as everything strongly suggest armstrong did.DirtyWorks said:No one is refusing. There is a long, long, long running thread about it and the answer is always the same. The evidence we have strongly suggests Lemond didn't dope. Albatross says otherwise, but we're still waiting for specific allegations to be posted. We'll be waiting quite a long time for those.
100% agree; bringing down lance/ferrari/bruyneel & co is a great first step.Benotti69 said:I considered it. Armstrong had since 2001 with huge money available to discover LeMond's doping. He couldn't. Lawyer's, huge entourage, paid assistants, mechanics, doctors, etc and no doubt Private investigators to dig the dirt.
So the only positive thing Amrstrong has done for cycling is to dispel any idea that LeMond doped.
Now why would you argue otherwise?
This has been pointed out numerous times the issue is raised about LeMond's doping and every single time those trying to look uninterested whether he doped or not failed to convince the clinic of anything but they are fanboys.
thegripo said:Still, I think he did everything in his power to win the TDF.
190 riders start the race and do everything in their power to win. Non argument.
Fignon had the exact same equipment as LeMond. Fignon against he advice he wa given chose not to use it. Another non argument. Using latest tech = doping. Fail.
Racing a bike down an Alpine pas at 70km per hour is crazy. Doesn't mae LeMond a doper. Fail.
No one is blindly puting their faith in anyone. I repeat in case you haven't finished high school and are coming down off dope. Armstrong had since 2001 with huge money available to discover LeMond's doping. He couldn't. Lawyer's, huge entourage, paid assistants, mechanics, doctors, etc and no doubt Private investigators to dig the dirt.
What has Tygart got to do with it? Tygart did not work alone. USADA has more than 1 person. Or is it only his name on your intern brief?
For sure and to take down someone as big as Armstrong is as good a starting point as any. Hell it is probably the best place you can start. The guy that bribed the Federation and doped his way to riches getting stripped and thrown out of all sanctioned sports for the rest of his life might make others think before they dope.
I think they forgot to put the other 4 names from the USADA investigation on your little intern brief. Ferarri, Bruyneel (won more TdFs as a Ds than wonderboy did as a rider), Del Moral, Ceyla and Marti were all big players in doping and now are gone from the sport. Next McQuaid and Verbruggen
I think the USADA have done a fantastic job considering their meagre resources up agaisnt 5 very powerful and wealthy cheats.
it is anecdotally said he was doping a tri speedo athlete.thegripo said:i'm 99.99% certain lance doped throughout his cycling career exactly the way USADA says.
i still don't think he doped in the late 80s early 90s just because it was less available, he wouldn't have had the resources at 15-18 y-old.
the fact he turned into possibly the most hard core doper later during the 90s doesnt change that.
jim ryun story makes sense; you do make huge improvements when you're a teenager.
my point is LA did not single-handedly corrupted cycling, I think the formula (obsessive sociopath + big money + corrupt system(UCI) + large majority of dirty cyclists ) => perfect storm. Lance is the result of this mix, but only one of the parts.
so, supposing Lemond is clean, i still find it simplistic and dangerous to just focus on LA/UCI and pretend everyone else just got bullied or maneuvered into doping.
yes he's pretty much been taken down, and yes it's a huge step forward, but cycling has to avoid going back to 98 post festina. When everything was supposed to be crystal clear.
Like I said before, it would be just setting up the stage for the next Armstrong.
however, you don't have to equivocate on everything in life.thegripo said:the point is avoid both extremes; almighty saintly angels (greg) AND all knowing evil masterminds (lance).
they're both very like not to be either.
He kind of poignantly doesn't mention them. They were very good friends of his, and I think Kelly still is to some degree. In an interview after when he was asked, he sidestepped the question, sort of a "this is my story, it's not my place to tell theirs" type answer.the delgados said:Does he say the same about Roche and Kelly?
Either way, how does he know?
Exactly what are you trying to say? You believe LeMond doped? Just come out and say it. This bullsh*t of throwing some mud at LeMond to see if it sticks carries little to weight around here. There were no f*cking oxygen boosting drugs for LeMond to take. How hard is it for people like yourself to understand that?thegripo said:Benotti69 said:i also don't agree that lemond is unquestionable and greatest/cleanest/most innocent/ most talented cyclist that has ever existed. crushing dopers, riding on bread/water and steel bycicles. i think he pushed things are far as he could to win.
Just like any human being who's crazily obsessive enough to want to win a race that lasts 21 5-hour days against the top 200 in the world.
Why do you need business to put on races?What do the clubs do?mwbyrd said:Guys, the only problem with not renewing our licenses is that we will put a lot of local race directors out of business. I'm all for not getting a USCycling license but not at the expense of local RDs, one of which is a good friend of mine.
The UCI is counting on your support. Good to know that you support the UCI.mwbyrd said:Guys, the only problem with not renewing our licenses is that we will put a lot of local race directors out of business. I'm all for not getting a USCycling license but not at the expense of local RDs, one of which is a good friend of mine.
I don't think that most people posting in the clinic would think this so I don't really see how it applies. The focus at the moment is on LA and USPS because that is the focus of the USADA case but I don't see any evidence that the prevailing view here is that this is the be all and end all. Far from it considering the cynicism with which various rider statements about doping finishing in 2006 and "level playing field" have been met. Just wait until the Italian investigation of Ferrari starts to bite, that is going to rival USPS in scope as it will be more than one team.thegripo said:so, supposing Lemond is clean, i still find it simplistic and dangerous to just focus on LA/UCI and pretend everyone else just got bullied or maneuvered into doping.
the thing that interests me is that everyone si after the uci but it is wada and usada thta did the testing ...is their incompetence going to be utterly ignored.? if tygart and pound had been doing their jobs none of this wouldve been gotten away with.DirtyWorks said:You mean how Greg raced at the sharp end of practically every race entirely unlike every EPO super-responder that came after?
Lemond's performance as an amateur were soul-crushing to every Pro Cycling hopeful that had to race with him. Yes, he was that good. Unlike EPO responders who are 'good' a few times a year, with Lemond it was all year long on a much harder schedule than modern racers.
Clearly you were not following the sport in Lemond's era otherwise you would know how this ridiculous claim eliminates any possible credibility you might have had.
The vague allegations that Lemond doped are in full-swing right now, clearly fueled by Wonderboy believers on a number of cycling-related sites. Lemond's defenders use this one and it's a bad argument.
If anything, the case can be made that Lemond's exit from bike racing is the perfect test case for dopers. He was getting beat like pack-fill his last TdF. Clearly he was not on EPO and other riders who WERE pack-fill pre-EPO were killing it.
At the time, riders were dying of EPO induced heart attacks and Hein was pretending nothing was wrong. Meanwhile, the IOC pretended EPO did not exist either until it became ridiculous.
In fact, let's dredge-up that era one more time because it highlights how entirely corrupt cycling was and still is under Hein's control and makes Lemond look like a saint.
The "problems" with the USADA's case are manufactured. Greg's letter is on the mark.
hey man...that was just a coin cidence...the hypocrisy is neck deep in cycling tho and it is irrellevant now whetehr Lemond did por didnt except that he is being incredibly hypocritivcal in regards to the uci. Its usada and wada also...there ar ehtree parts to this hes only complaining about one. I agree the apple cart should be upset but completely...If there wasnt gross incompetence in all the agencies involved we wouldnt be watching all this right now. Tygart only entered the investigation after the fda bungled it. Where was he all those years?Albatros said:They must have slept in separate rooms or Lemond felt asleep real quick cause in his own words, he only noticed people were doping after six years as a professional.
I know this "little" in-congruence amounts to nothing for Lemond followers, but think again, six years without noticing anything strange when we get accounts from fellow cyclists of the time that doping was as widespread as it is today. Even a current friend of his wrote a book about it to make the money he couldn't make as a professional.
And let's not forget that our Lemond won a race early in his career because Pascal Simon was disqualified for doping.
The same Pascal Simon who introduced Robert Millar to Dr Bellocq to get a nice "hormone re-balancing", and the same doctor Bellocq that later became Lemond's team doctor.
Yes..at last a voice of reason. I'm more interested in Lemonds eveidence he eludes to in his letter. Would love to see him sink Fat Pat. Anyone know what he is referring to?Ferminal said:This is not the place to discuss LeMond's personal history. If you want you can do that in the thread discussing Andrew McQuaid's accusations.
Here we meet again the smoke grenade, McQuaid-style: don’t dare to write a book and make money with it! Doing commercial things isn’t suitable for a commercial sportsperson …Albatros said:Even a current friend of his wrote a book about it to make the money he couldn't make as a professional.
Numbers don't lie ?, you do though. Seriously, they're throwing you guys out with so little basic training these days.roadfreak44 said:the thing that interests me is that everyone si after the uci but it is wada and usada thta did the testing ...is their incompetence going to be utterly ignored.? if tygart and pound had been doing their jobs none of this wouldve been gotten away with.
fyi my bad in merckxs firsat grand tour he was ninth. lemond who is a far better rider obviously than merckx was third. Hinault was clearly doping as he won or placed second in every grand tour he was in except for one where he withdrew because of knee problems while wearing yellow. The numbers dont lie. there are only a couple of riders who ever were on the podium in their first attempts. Whether anyone buys that the numbers speaks for themselves at the heart of the discussion is corruption and hypocuirsy in cycling and given that wada and usada are the "Cops" of racing and caught few of these guys speaks to the hpocrisy that is being offered by lemond et al...sure toss uci got no problem with that followed closely by tygart and wada. If old travis hadnt had his feet up for so long and been asleep at the wheel...LA wouldnt have gotten away with what he did...cleaning house means you get ALL the rooms...
No one rides a bike in the pro peloton for the length of LeMond and doesn't make some enemies.petethedrummer said:Let's say Lemond did dope and all his friends are covering up. It just goes to show that good friends are worth more than 125million dollars.
If this question is so important to you, why don't you open a thread for it instead of bringing it up in several discussions where it is completely off topic.roadfreak44 said:the thing that interests me is that everyone si after the uci but it is wada and usada thta did the testing ...is their incompetence going to be utterly ignored.?
Of course hypocresy is everywhere in the world of cycling. They all know what is going on, they have always know. Everyone, the journalists that now play the surprised card, the cyclists, the UCI, USADA. It is all a farce, and only because of political struggles we get to know how rotten this world is. If Armstrong had not created so many enemies he would have got away with it all.roadfreak44 said:hey man...that was just a coin cidence...the hypocrisy is neck deep in cycling tho and it is irrellevant now whetehr Lemond did por didnt except that he is being incredibly hypocritivcal in regards to the uci. Its usada and wada also...there ar ehtree parts to this hes only complaining about one. I agree the apple cart should be upset but completely...If there wasnt gross incompetence in all the agencies involved we wouldnt be watching all this right now. Tygart only entered the investigation after the fda bungled it. Where was he all those years?