Lesser Known Road Racing for Women Thread

[Samu Cuenca]

As acknowledged above (possibly after you lifted the quote). But that is by-the-by. They cannot declare the finish of a stage null and then make it a determining factor.

But has is actually been confirmed that stage 1 is included in the countback?

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Do the laws of cycling allow for it not to be?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Do the laws of cycling allow for it not to be?

I'm not sure. When they neutralised stage 3 in the 2012 Vuelta a Catalunya, they didn't include the results from that stage in the countback to determine who finished 3rd to 15th in the final GC, but that was of course different circumstances, and I don't know if the rules have been modified since.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that precedent, nor do I recall details of the stage (and I'm seriously impressed that you can recall in that quickly).

The rule (2.6.015)

If the result is still tied or if there are no individual time trial stages the placings obtained in each stage, except team time trial stages, shall be added and, as a last resort, the place obtained in the last stage ridden shall be taken into consideration.

Does not allow for some stages to be an exception, but of course what is in the rule book and what the UCI allow, even though the rules do not give permission for exemptions, are only vaguely related, so it wouldn't be a total surprise if they cover their backs by omitting Stage one, regardless of the rules of the sport.


But this cumulative total is a daft and innocuous method. When riders are not riding for position, their position should not be a factor, especially as the stage that will usually contain the biggest placing differences between GC rivals is likely to be the one in which they are least invested. The whole idea of giving the peloton the same time in a bunch finish os to avoid everyone feeling they have an abligation to be near the front for safety's sake.

Would it not be more sensible to have a countback weighted towards their best stage positions? GB has 1st, 3rd, 17th, 30th, 59th; ELB has 1st, 3rd, 5th, 52nd and 73rd. Their best two positions are equal, so look at their 3rd best: Longo Borgini would be the leader, and Brown would know that she needs 4th tomorrow (but 5th would do if ELB outside the top 17) to win. Reward them according to the stages when they made an effort, not the ones where the whole spirit of the sport is that they ride in in a non-competitive manner.

But maybe that needs a different thread, rather than further diverting this specific race's chat.

 

[RedheadDane]

Does not allow for some stages to be an exception, but of course what is in the rule book and what the UCI allow, even though the rules do not give permission for exemptions, are only vaguely related, so it wouldn't be a total surprise if they cover their backs by omitting Stage one, regardless of the rules of the sport.

Surely, stage 1 being neutralised should mean it's not gonna count towards GC at all...

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

It wasn't neutralised: they simply took the time at 3km. A handful of riders lost time on the stage and bonus seconds were given. Countback that included stage 1 is the reason Wiebes was not in the leader's jersey on stage 3.

 

[RedheadDane]

It wasn't neutralised: they simply took the time at 3km.

Well, the finale was neutralised.
But anyway; seems like having everyone up there could have been a disaster.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that precedent, nor do I recall details of the stage (and I'm seriously impressed that you can recall in that quickly).

The rule (2.6.015)

Does not allow for some stages to be an exception, but of course what is in the rule book and what the UCI allow, even though the rules do not give permission for exemptions, are only vaguely related, so it wouldn't be a total surprise if they cover their backs by omitting Stage one, regardless of the rules of the sport.


But this cumulative total is a daft and innocuous method. When riders are not riding for position, their position should not be a factor, especially as the stage that will usually contain the biggest placing differences between GC rivals is likely to be the one in which they are least invested. The whole idea of giving the peloton the same time in a bunch finish os to avoid everyone feeling they have an abligation to be near the front for safety's sake.

Would it not be more sensible to have a countback weighted towards their best stage positions? GB has 1st, 3rd, 17th, 30th, 59th; ELB has 1st, 3rd, 5th, 52nd and 73rd. Their best two positions are equal, so look at their 3rd best: Longo Borgini would be the leader, and Brown would know that she needs 4th tomorrow (but 5th would do if ELB outside the top 17) to win. Reward them according to the stages when they made an effort, not the ones where the whole spirit of the sport is that they ride in in a non-competitive manner.

But maybe that needs a different thread, rather than further diverting this specific race's chat.

I don't remember the stage at all, but I was looking at the results not that long ago, so that's why it still lingered in my mind. But yeah, if they did use the stage in the countback the other day, then they probably still do.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Brown would be ahead on countback either way, just not by as much if stage 1 is not taken into account.

What might be interesting, however, is that Kasia is ahead of both of them on countback and only 2 seconds adrift on GC. Now, she is also a pretty miserable sprinter in ordinary circumstances, so the chances of her heading off and nabbing bonus seconds à la Garzelli are pretty minimal, but she only needs 3rd in both sprints to take the GC so if not too many people commit to contesting those sprints, she stands a chance, because Brown and Longo Borghini are not the most imposing sprint opposition out there, even for Niewiadoma.

So I could see one of two situations developing here. I'm not convinced there's too much inclination to make a big deal of the metas volantes jersey for anybody but van der Duin at this stage and Grace, Elisa and Kasia are no threat to her in that. Wiebes could lose the points jersey to ELB, but she'll gain far more at the sprint at the finish than she stands to lose from not contesting the intermediate. Therefore we could well have a situation where the only people interested in contesting the intermediate sprints are the top 3 on GC, in which case those bonus sprints become winner takes all between the three (if Kasia wins both, she wins because she gains 2 seconds and is ahead of both Brown and ELB on countback; if Kasia doesn't win both, Elisa must finish ahead of Brown on bonus seconds accrued). The alternative is that Brown trusts herself to stay with ELB at the line and they do what Androni tried to do to Garzelli in 2010, hoovering up the sprint bonuses with their faster riders; Copponi, Duval and Fahlin are all faster than either of their GC rivals, but can they all get to the front and hoover up all the points bearing in mind there would then be nobody to lead out? But if only 2 of them contest and nobody else is bothered with the bonus seconds, do they risk losing out if either Elisa or Kasia hitch a ride to take 3rd (twice would be required for Niewiadoma, but only once would do for ELB).

And... did any of them go to Domenico Pozzovivo's lecture on how to finish 7th in a three-man sprint?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I thin the race is decided now. Trek tried to set up ELB for the first intermediate sprint, but Brown opened the sprint with Kasia in her wheel and won it easily, while ELB wasn't able to pass Cordon Ragot.
So now Brown leads by 3 seconds over ELB and 4 over Kasia.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I thin the race is decided now. Trek tried to set up ELB for the first intermediate sprint, but Brown opened the sprint with Kasia in her wheel and won it easily, while ELB wasn't able to pass Cordon Ragot.
So now Brown leads by 3 seconds over ELB and 4 over Kasia.

Is Kasia not level on time with ELB and therefore ahead of her? She was 2" behind yesterday, 2nd in the sprint is 2 seconds, and Kasia is ahead of Elisa on countback.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Is Kasia not level on time with ELB and therefore ahead of her? She was 2" behind yesterday, 2nd in the sprint is 2 seconds, and Kasia is ahead of Elisa on countback.

I think the official result now says that Kasia didn't get past Cordon Ragot and only got the one second.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

It looked like Cordon Ragot was ahead of Niewiadoma, and the commentator said that he had the sprint results in front of him when he said that that was the case, then the screen graphic had Niewiadoma 2nd at the sprint point. But now the commentators are describing the situation as though Niewiadoma were 3rd at that line.

Maybe the DSes know for sure. Maybe the organisers do. I wouldn't be too confident.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Trek hot it right at the end, and FdJ messed it up. Very fortunate that no accidents happened with all that road furniture in the last kilometres.

 

[yaco]

How dumb is FDJ ? Go for the stage with Copponi, leaving Brown isolated and Longo-Borghini gets third in the stage and steals GC by one second - GC is more important than the stage win ( they already won 2 stages ) - Backing Copponi against Wiebes is madness.

 

[yaco]

Trek hot it right at the end, and FdJ messed it up. Very fortunate that no accidents happened with all that road furniture in the last kilometres.

It's more than FDJ messing it up - You gotta support your GC rider - This would have not happened if Brown was still at BEX.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

How dumb is FDJ ? Go for the stage with Copponi, leaving Brown isolated and Longo-Borghini gets third in the stage and steals GC by one second - GC is more important than the stage win ( they already won 2 stages ) - Backing Copponi against Wiebes is madness.

I'm not sure they were fully aware that Brown wasn't on Copponi's wheel when Fahlin went to the front, and when they realised that it was too late.

 

[awavey]

I'm not sure they were fully aware that Brown wasn't on Copponi's wheel when Fahlin went to the front, and when they realised that it was too late.

but why isnt the DS screaming down the radio at that point ? if the commentators can spot the problem developing, and 3kms out, Brown obviously can indicate it too and can try and surf other teams wheels if her team had splintered, but it didnt look like she was just boxed in.

that just looked like they didnt expect ELB to be in the mix with the sprint, which fair enough I wouldnt have put any money on that happening, but that seems a very risky plan, because who else is going to be the 3rd in the mix in the sprint and when you see Trek forming a decent sprint train, you know what they are doing, but for some reason Brown & FDJ couldnt really counter.

plus what was the issue with Brown that she dropped back I was surprised they didnt show what that was, a bike change or some other issue ?

imagine what the atmos in the team bus would have been if ELB had beaten Copponi in the sprint and it was those bonus seconds which won the GC.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

but why isnt the DS screaming down the radio at that point ? if the commentators can spot the problem developing, and 3kms out, Brown obviously can indicate it too and can try and surf other teams wheels if her team had splintered, but it didnt look like she was just boxed in.

that just looked like they didnt expect ELB to be in the mix with the sprint, which fair enough I wouldnt have put any money on that happening, but that seems a very risky plan, because who else is going to be the 3rd in the mix in the sprint and when you see Trek forming a decent sprint train, you know what they are doing, but for some reason Brown & FDJ couldnt really counter.

plus what was the issue with Brown that she dropped back I was surprised they didnt show what that was, a bike change or some other issue ?

imagine what the atmos in the team bus would have been if ELB had beaten Copponi in the sprint and it was those bonus seconds which won the GC.

Brown had Copponi's wheel before the left hand corner at 2 km to go, but she lost it going through it, and Fahlin made her move right after it. I doubt a DS would have been able to tell them anything before it was too late.
But if they were trying to lead Brown to the front, then it was obviously still a mistake that they didn't make sure she was folowing them, and Brown should have been screaming as well.

 

[yaco]

You are missing the point - FDJ should never have been riding for the stage - Their job was to safely position Brown in the final and preferably be following Trek - Brown was riding in the wind for a good portion of the last 1.5kms.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

You are missing the point - FDJ should never have been riding for the stage - Their job was to safely position Brown in the final and preferably be following Trek - Brown was riding in the wind for a good portion of the last 1.5kms.

But who's to say they wouldn't have lost on time bonus anyway in that scenario?
It would have been harder to get past Trek by staying behind them, as we clearly saw since all the sprinters bar Wiebes and Copponi couldn't find a way through.

 

[awavey]

Brown had Copponi's wheel before the left hand corner at 2 km to go, but she lost it going through it, and Fahlin made her move right after it. I doubt a DS would have been able to tell them anything before it was too late.
But if they were trying to lead Brown to the front, then it was obviously still a mistake that they didn't make sure she was folowing them, and Brown should have been screaming as well.

admittedly Im basing my reaction more to the commentary track, because I was watching on my phone which is never to going to let me identify individual riders from a helicopter shot

but both Dani & Hannah were calling out much earlier than 2km on the run in FDJ seemed to be in disarray, whilst Treks whole team had formed a nice sprint train and were drilling it, and Browns positioning in the bunch as a consequence based on that serious threat was wrecking her GC chances and FDJ needed to quickly get ontop of it, which ultimately they didnt and then it got worse when Brown lost Copponis wheel, and might have been even more oeuf on faces had Copponi not even taken 2nd.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Insane decision by FDJ regardless. I mean, yes, I would never have banked on losing to Longo Borghini on sprint bonus seconds, but in order to win the GC they need do nothing. Brown has already completely obliterated ELB at the intermediate sprint to get that 3 second cushion, she should just have been shepherded by the team and then glued to Elisa's wheel. By trying to win the sprint, a losing battle if ever there was one with Wiebes so dominant, they lost the battle they could win, in trying to win a battle they could only lose.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Don't you just love it when the teammates are celebrating the win in the background?

 

[RedheadDane]

Random thought:
Based on the respective names of the races, the women should do Mount Ventoux twice Tuesday, while the men should only do it once.