Liége-Bastogne-Liége flat finish from 2019

[Valanga]

 

[railxmig]

Re: Re:

You could keep RaF. Or do Colonster or Forges.

Alternatively, here's Lasterketa Burua's proposal (Link)

I think that proposal is too easy the last 20 kms. Unless there is a hugh attack on La Redoute, the race would probably end in a sprint with a pretty large group.

Where did they ascend the time when they did Sart-Tilman instead of Roche Faucons? I can only find the ascent on the other side of Sart Tilman when I google the climb.

I don't think it's any easier than Amstel, and it's much harder before that.

vs.

LBL has the quality, but AGR has the numbers. AGR is hilly basically from the get go while LBL starts in the last 100km. I guess it's not a big difference but at least the first 150km don't feel like a throwaway.

 

[jflemaire]

Re: Re:

A nice piece of road, but the tarmac looks a bit bumpy. I guess it would be interesting to see this road someday in LBL.

It's been redone since Google took the pictures; it's quite nice now.

 

[jflemaire]

Re:

This road is one of the acceses to the largest hospital in the area; I could see a problem there.

 

[OlavEH]

Based on the posts above, there seems to be at least 5 alternative routes after Redoute:

1) Roche Faucons, descent to Liege
2) Cote de Colonester, descent to Liege
3) Cote de Tiff, descent to Liege
4) Gomze and Beaurays, descent to Liege, like suggested by Lasterketa Burua
5) A combination of Forges/Beaurays followed by Colonester or Tiff

And, of course, San Nicolas can also be used.

 

[railxmig]

Re: Re:

There doesn't seem to be too much before Redoute. Maybe there could be some smaller roads available around the village of Kin. There's also La Vecquee/Targnon, but that's similar to Rosier. If the alternative will be surfaced in the future then you could have a nice 2km@13% murito before Redoute. Wonder if Spaloumont (above Spa; now it's in a very bad shape) will be ever available.

According to RTBF, Saint-Nicolas should be out too. Preudhomme mentions that the last 10km would be flat, which happens to correspond to the distance from the top of Roche aux Faucons to Liège. I hope they would descend from rue du Sart-Tilman, a twisty little descent across the woods that could make for an exciting finale, but I'm not too optimistic. I suspect they'll use the highways.

A nice piece of road, but the tarmac looks a bit bumpy. I guess it would be interesting to see this road someday in LBL.

Before AGR changed its route i would argue that a flat finale would not be selective enough, as LBL is (or just seems to be) the TdF of monuments and many guys are playing it safe (look at how ridiculous it was when they let Jungels away), but maybe it will work better that the "modern traditional" finish. I would really prefer to have a harder start though. AGR has hills basically from the beginning while LBL starts only in the last 100km making the first 150km kinda useless IMO. Sadly, there's not too much around Bastogne, besides maybe Haussire. If N89 is available, then you could link it to Spinieux and then you'll land in the familiar territory but i don't think that's a large imporvement.

I am perfectly fine to have at least one edition of the race to be a bit different to check out the market. If it will deliver then i guess it will be permanent and if not, then at least "they've tried".

The Targnon you mention has 2 different profiles for the exact same route on climbbybike. One of them is 2.1 @13%, which is a definitive finale opener, and the other stat says 2.8 @ 5.8/% or something, which isn't great

The easier side is route N606 which starts in the village of Stoumont. The murito side is a very small, unsurfaced road which starts in the middle of the Targnon village. If it will be ever surfaced then you can have Redoute times two. In a direct route including Redoute and RaF it would be somewhere between 40-50km from Liege.

A nice piece of road, but the tarmac looks a bit bumpy. I guess it would be interesting to see this road someday in LBL.

It's been redone since Google took the pictures; it's quite nice now.

I don't think this technical descent will make any difference, but it would be nice to see a different type of challenge in this race (i don't think there are to many genuine serpentine roads in Ardennes). I'm perfectly fine with it.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

You could keep RaF. Or do Colonster or Forges.

Alternatively, here's Lasterketa Burua's proposal (Link)

I don't really like this route. It would probably lead to pretty good racing but I think it doesn't really fit to LBL's unique characteristics. If you compare AGR and LBL, AGR always had more climbs but LBL the more difficult ones which means that the riders contesting for the win in the two races aren't always the same. Guys like Valgren or Sagan can compete for the win Amstel, but Liege might be too hard for them. With this route, with 3 very short climbs in the finale, the characteristics of the two races suddenly get very similar especially as the climbs before La Redoute also aren't super hard. If you find a way to make the 50 k before La Redoute very selective I'm fine with this finale, but like this I don't particularly like it.

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

You could keep RaF. Or do Colonster or Forges.

Alternatively, here's Lasterketa Burua's proposal (Link)

I don't really like this route. It would probably lead to pretty good racing but I think it doesn't really fit to LBL's unique characteristics. If you compare AGR and LBL, AGR always had more climbs but LBL the more difficult ones which means that the riders contesting for the win in the two races aren't always the same. Guys like Valgren or Sagan can compete for the win Amstel, but Liege might be too hard for them. With this route, with 3 very short climbs in the finale, the characteristics of the two races suddenly get very similar especially as the climbs before La Redoute also aren't super hard. If you find a way to make the 50 k before La Redoute very selective I'm fine with this finale, but like this I don't particularly like it.

I think you need to take a closer look. There's plenty of hard climbs, although there's room to add more. The amount is about the same as usual, and it is a quite traditional route in format (in the link, there's also several historical routes).

 

[Leinster]

Re:

How was the race with the old Liège finish? I'm too young to have seen it.

From the results it looks like it was mostly sprints from small groups. Even a 35 man sprint in 1989 won by Kelly, it seems. Maybe that was part of the reason for the route change?

That’s how the results sheet looks, but apparently the race itself didn’t pan out that way, at least not as Kelly remembers it; https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/sport/eurosport-cycling/10782278/sean-kelly-win-liege-bastogne-liege.html

No video of it that I can find, so can’t really confirm.

The 87 and 91 finishes are on YouTube, iirc, and they seem to go through a lot of industrial concrete-type areas before a flat finish. 87 finished around a sweeping left hand bend in what looked like a downtown shopping street.

I can’t help thinking it might be an idea to have a tougher 2nd quarter/middle third to thin out the field a bit/burn off some domestiques. Fleche had a much more exciting race this year, seemingly with the addition of La Redoute in the early going being the only change.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

There doesn't seem to be too much before Redoute. Maybe there could be some smaller roads available around the village of Kin. There's also La Vecquee/Targnon, but that's similar to Rosier. If the alternative will be surfaced in the future then you could have a nice 2km@13% murito before Redoute. Wonder if Spaloumont (above Spa; now it's in a very bad shape) will be ever available.

According to RTBF, Saint-Nicolas should be out too. Preudhomme mentions that the last 10km would be flat, which happens to correspond to the distance from the top of Roche aux Faucons to Liège. I hope they would descend from rue du Sart-Tilman, a twisty little descent across the woods that could make for an exciting finale, but I'm not too optimistic. I suspect they'll use the highways.

A nice piece of road, but the tarmac looks a bit bumpy. I guess it would be interesting to see this road someday in LBL.

Before AGR changed its route i would argue that a flat finale would not be selective enough, as LBL is (or just seems to be) the TdF of monuments and many guys are playing it safe (look at how ridiculous it was when they let Jungels away), but maybe it will work better that the "modern traditional" finish. I would really prefer to have a harder start though. AGR has hills basically from the beginning while LBL starts only in the last 100km making the first 150km kinda useless IMO. Sadly, there's not too much around Bastogne, besides maybe Haussire. If N89 is available, then you could link it to Spinieux and then you'll land in the familiar territory but i don't think that's a large imporvement.

I am perfectly fine to have at least one edition of the race to be a bit different to check out the market. If it will deliver then i guess it will be permanent and if not, then at least "they've tried".

The Targnon you mention has 2 different profiles for the exact same route on climbbybike. One of them is 2.1 @13%, which is a definitive finale opener, and the other stat says 2.8 @ 5.8/% or something, which isn't great

The easier side is route N606 which starts in the village of Stoumont. The murito side is a very small, unsurfaced road which starts in the middle of the Targnon village. If it will be ever surfaced then you can have Redoute times two. In a direct route including Redoute and RaF it would be somewhere between 40-50km from Liege.

A nice piece of road, but the tarmac looks a bit bumpy. I guess it would be interesting to see this road someday in LBL.

It's been redone since Google took the pictures; it's quite nice now.

I don't think this technical descent will make any difference, but it would be nice to see a different type of challenge in this race (i don't think there are to many genuine serpentine roads in Ardennes). I'm perfectly fine with it.

Ok thanks. I would like to see it. On one hand it would make everything that happens before it very predictable, but it's not like anything ever happens around the climbs before now either.

 

[Koronin]

I'm taking a wait and see on this. However my gut is that it's going to finish in a bunch sprint of around 15 to 20 riders.

 

[Velolover2]

I made a longer one with the climbs being closer to each other. It's made to favor the likes of Nibali, Jungels, Dumoulin and Roglic but if all goes wrong.. it could be a reduced sprint as well.

It's also a great route for a strong breakaway of climbers. If you reduce the teams to 6 riders, it becomes very difficult to control.

What do you think?

 

[railxmig]

Re:

I made a longer one with the climbs being closer to each other. It's made to favor the likes of Nibali, Jungels, Dumoulin and Roglic but if all goes wrong.. it could be a reduced sprint as well.

It's also a great route for a strong breakaway of climbers. If you reduce the teams to 6 riders, it becomes very difficult to control.

What do you think?

I've seen you popping out with this stage in some places. If you have a link to the stage itself or at least some detailed info on some of these climbs i then could judge it (and appreciate some of the roads i've missed myself). Also, what happened to your Danish race? I think there are at least 2 stages left afaik.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

I made a longer one with the climbs being closer to each other. It's made to favor the likes of Nibali, Jungels, Dumoulin and Roglic but if all goes wrong.. it could be a reduced sprint as well.

It's also a great route for a strong breakaway of climbers. If you reduce the teams to 6 riders, it becomes very difficult to control.

What do you think?

The way from the last climb to the finish might be a bit too long. I know this would encourage attacks from far out, but I fear this might simply make finishing alone too difficult. That said, I do like the section before La Redoute. I actually tried to come up with a finale for LBL finishing in Liege where I used a very similar approach to La Redoute with only a few differences. So all in all I'd love to see a mixture of your route and the one Netserk, so your climbs instead of Rosier and Maquisard, but then the bumpy route from La Redoute to Liege.

 

[El Pistolero]

This will suit guys like Sagan and GVA if they decide to ride, but I doubt either of them wants to give up Roubaix to peak for LBL instead (Roubaix has much more prestige).

 

[Gigs_98]

Re:

This will suit guys like Sagan and GVA if they decide to ride, but I doubt either of them wants to give up Roubaix to peak for LBL instead (Roubaix has much more prestige).

Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[Valv.Piti]

When even commentators and 'experts' begin to talk about changing the route up, you know something is terribly wrong. What they have said most have known since 2013-2014 or so - such route design doesn't really work in todays peloton. Happy it moves back to Liege, when I started watching cycling I like this race better than the cobbles. I doubt I would even watch it now if I wasn't such a big Valverde-fan!

.. well okay, I definitely would watch anyways, but you get the point.

 

[Koronin]

Re:

When even commentators and 'experts' begin to talk about changing the route up, you know something is terribly wrong. What they have said most have known since 2013-2014 or so - such route design doesn't really work in todays peloton. Happy it moves back to Liege, when I started watching cycling I like this race better than the cobbles. I doubt I would even watch it now if I wasn't such a big Valverde-fan!

.. well okay, I definitely would watch anyways, but you get the point.

LOL, yeah I know exactly what you mean. I'm fairly sure it's not a race the non Valverde fans care as much about as us big Valverde-fans do.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Re:

I don't know. Never watched the old finale, dunno what it'll be like.

Also, seems like CyclingTips is a bit confused as to what's the traditional finish.

Well, here's a good bite of the last flat finish version in '91.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSGXbPglI10
Quite selective as you will recon.

 

[Der Effe]

Fingers crossed the new route will bring an improvement. LBL turned into one of the worst races on the entire calendar.

 

[OlavEH]

Can't see that this has been posted yet, even though it seems that the news is over 2 months old .

Link to new Liege route.

https://img.aso.fr/core_app/img-cyc...profil-sans/0614/0:0,1110:458-2220-0-70/9b2cc

Any thoughts?

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

Can't see that this has been posted yet, even though it seems that the news is over 2 months old .

Link to new Liege route.

https://img.aso.fr/core_app/img-cyc...profil-sans/0614/0:0,1110:458-2220-0-70/9b2cc

Any thoughts?

Think it has been discussed in the general news thread.

My thought is it can only be better. More kilometres of action, hopefully from Redoute, but at the very, very least the Faucons.

 

[Red Rick]

Can't be worse than it used to be, but the 35km before La Redoute are underwhelming.

Guess we're basically hoping La Redoute now does what RaF used to do. Good thing is the presence of legit sprinters in Sagan or Alaphilippe should force others to race super agressive.

Worst possible scenario is honestly if it turns out Quick Step can control it really easily.

 

[OlavEH]

Re:

Can't be worse than it used to be, but the 35km before La Redoute are underwhelming.

Guess we're basically hoping La Redoute now does what RaF used to do. Good thing is the presence of legit sprinters in Sagan or Alaphilippe should force others to race super agressive.

Worst possible scenario is honestly if it turns out Quick Step can control it really easily.

Is there a better way to go from Stockau to Redoute than via Haute-Levee and Rosier? That seems like one of the shortest routes, so an alternative route would either be easier or longer. Are there steeper climbs with more difficult descents that could have been used in this section instead?

 

[WheelofGear]

I wonder if some of the better climbers of the classics riders could do well on the new route.

Naesen, GVA, Van Aert, Van Baarle, Štybar, Benoot. All these riders might be good if they action starts early on.