Lloyd Mondory has strong opinions about Columbia and Saxo

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blackcat said:
Bro, HGH cant be detected, there are indirect indications. The current test has a 24 hour window, but has never caught anyone.

Synacthen cannot be detected. IGF-1 neither. I think there were mooted tests for insulin, but I do not believe that can be detected neither.

I think the epo is redundant, as all evidence is, the autologous transfusions, can keep 'crit and hemoglobin and retics within ambiguous parameters.

Then ofcourse, are the means like plasma expanders, but I do not see this as relevant like BB does. I think most are at or near natural crits. Under 45. How they get 45, with equivalent hemaglobin of 55, is transfusions, and you can see that on the road. The others are not doing anything, and are not boosted, they are at natural crits of about 43. Mondory et al. Ofcourse, everyones natural crit is different.

Armstrong and the other dopers will be on experimental oxygen delivery drugs, not yet to market, that make it more efficient, and get the O2 to the muscles. They will be on everything that cannot be tested for, and androgens which cannot show up on the MCGC testing.

My mail was in 98, Armstrong at the Vuelta was bragging about an equine steroid he had, that no one else had. He has moved on since, but this demonstrates his mentality.
...Thunder?
 
Bala Verde said:
Dig back into the cyclinnews archive and check some of the results in the Tour L'Avenir (or other youngsters races) in the 90s. You'll see some famous names (like Kohl, F Schleck etc). Most of the times you wonder why they even got a contract...
On the other hand, guys like Dekker and Ricco who have been world class from the moment they started cycling, and progressed year to year in all ranks. and were always world top, also get caught.

So what's your point? They all do the same
 
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Bagster said:
Any club racer could name you several riders that would blow by them on an uphill stretch but who can't descend very well. In fact many times the guys who aren't good climbers are very good descenders due to the simple fact that they have long experience of having to ride their asses of to get back on once over the top of a climb. .
NO bro, you got me wrong. :) I meant to say the way Roy was caught indicated big time blood doping by Krutzinger.

Frosty said:
I look at that the other way round. He was taking it fairly easy going up the climb realising that he hasnt a chance either on this stage or the overall. Then when Kreuziger passed him he felt a bit embarrassed and so tried to catch him up. Roy would have been fresher having not blasted up the climb and managed to do it. Guess we'll never know for certain
Thats true to some degree, but he was also getting a draft. :)

Dekker_Tifosi said:
On the other hand, guys like Dekker and Ricco who have been world class from the moment they started cycling, and progressed year to year in all ranks. and were always world top, also get caught.

So what's your point? They all do the same
They do not all do the same. Some can blood dope with their frozen packed cells, other teams dont have a clue and cannot do this thus losing 20% FTP power on others that do which is fatal. HGH, Synacthen have been widely used since the 80s, even 70s. Not many are totally clean thats for sure.

BroDeal said:
This just does not match current info. HGH can be detected. Insulin can be detected. The AFLD is using the IRMS test for testosterone without the initial T:TE ratio screen. There is now a standard for declaring bio-similar EPOs positive. As Dekker just found out, retrospective testing can be dangerous. .
HGH testing is a joke, simple dumb an easy timing of lower dosages is all it takes to fool that.

blackcat said:
Then ofcourse, are the means like plasma expanders, but I do not see this as relevant like BB does. I think most are at or near natural crits. Under 45. How they get 45, with equivalent hemaglobin of 55, is transfusions, and you can see that on the road. The others are not doing anything, and are not boosted, they are at natural crits of about 43. Mondory et al. Ofcourse, everyones natural crit is different.
.
They need to hemodilute before controls to get their racing crits down though. IV saline, lactate ringer, albumin, etc.

Armstrong and the other dopers will be on experimental oxygen delivery drugs, not yet to market, that make it more efficient, and get the O2 to the muscles. They will be on everything that cannot be tested for, and androgens which cannot show up on the MCGC testing.
True...

blackcat said:
Moncoutie is clean BB
I dont believe anybody in the Tour is totally clean (who finishes.) He could be fairly clean, not blood doping. I also dont agree that Tuft has been clean. He was a good U.S. pro rider in early on clean, but he began doping with Dynepo on Symmetrics. This is very obvious based on the hypoxic tent advertisement he does (the one that has been proven in no trial to raise crit.) Now he talks about how his whole team had the 50% limit. The typical hard training endurance athlete would need to be at 12,000 feet + for 2 months to get that.
 
Bagster said:
Oh, and while I am ranting, please stop posting your idle speculations as if they were facts. They are not facts and you bring no supporting evidence that supports your allegations as fact.
But of course, this is a forum. It is a lot about speculation, right? If we talked about actual evidence then we would have a lot less to talk about on this side of the forum.

Remember, it has been "proven" in the past that a lot of the speculated things talked on the forums have come true.
 
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I actually signed up just to respond to BigBoat. Time will tell if that was a mistake, but I couldn't let your comments on Tuft pass without comment. The guy lived in a camper trailer on Cunningham's (DS of Symmetrics) lawn, but he could afford dynepo? Are you serious? Do you know how much he earned last year!?

Besides that, he lives, rides and races in Vancouver where I live (well he used to until this year). There is sometimes talk of a few suspected doped riders around here, but there isn't even a hint of a rumor that Tuft isn't 100% clean.

If you get to know him even a little bit you'd understand that there would be no point for him to dope. That's not why he's racing. Read some stories about him and you'll get some measure of the man. And if I understand correctly, part of the reason he stopped racing in Europe the first time around is because he had no interest in what was going on around him.

John Swanson
http://www.bikephysics.com
 
May 13, 2009
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blackcat said:
Armstrong and the other dopers will be on experimental oxygen delivery drugs, not yet to market, that make it more efficient, and get the O2 to the muscles. They will be on everything that cannot be tested for, and androgens which cannot show up on the MCGC testing.
That's what I think, too. Artificial O2 carriers. That's why we need the CO test (assuming that artificial O2 carriers bond to CO in a similar way as Hb).
 
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Dekker_Tifosi said:
On the other hand, guys like Dekker and Ricco who have been world class from the moment they started cycling, and progressed year to year in all ranks. and were always world top, also get caught.

So what's your point? They all do the same
No, not everyone does the same. Gerdemann is another fraud. He is best mates with Jens. It fits.

Gerdemann and Schumacher had some less than mediocre results in chronos in the espoirs, then they go thru the roof. Just not credible.

Kohl was in the autobus in the 2005 Tour of Austria on Rabobank d3, when he was an Austrian and it is a grimpeurs tour, one would expect him to be in the selection. But no, the autobus. Should never have got a contract with Gerolsteiner.

Frank is a fraud.

Then you have guys like Le Mevel, who was a great climber in the espoirs, and one of the best espoirs, and he is pack fodder in the pros, but management always select him at the Tour. You gotta ask yourself why they do. They do because they know he is one of the most naturally talented on the team, so they reward him.

Chavanel was known as the machine on Cofidis. Killed everyone in training. I am sure he got on a better program tho, going to QS.

Pat McCarty, and John Devine have won espoir tours in Europe. Then go on to nothings? Why? They dont get on the program.

Rasmussen and Landis were ****e in mtb. Except Rasmussen won worlds when charged. How do they go on to win the Tour? Its the program silly.

Jamie Burrow is still probably the best British cyclist in the peloton no one has heard of. Still holds the ascent record for Plateau de Beille I do believe, and in the same tour, Ronde l'Izard, he beat the reigning u23 world champion timetrialist Thor Hushovd in the chrono. Goes to USPS and loses his preparatore, and then he sucks balls.
 
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ScienceIsCool said:
I actually signed up just to respond to BigBoat. Time will tell if that was a mistake, but I couldn't let your comments on Tuft pass without comment. The guy lived in a camper trailer on Cunningham's (DS of Symmetrics) lawn, but he could afford dynepo? Are you serious? Do you know how much he earned last year!?

Besides that, he lives, rides and races in Vancouver where I live (well he used to until this year). There is sometimes talk of a few suspected doped riders around here, but there isn't even a hint of a rumor that Tuft isn't 100% clean.

If you get to know him even a little bit you'd understand that there would be no point for him to dope. That's not why he's racing. Read some stories about him and you'll get some measure of the man. And if I understand correctly, part of the reason he stopped racing in Europe the first time around is because he had no interest in what was going on around him.

John Swanson
http://www.bikephysics.com
John, there is alot of speculation about Tuft. See how much wattage he needed to add to get 7th in the Olympics, and 3rd in the Worlds, and then get back to me if you think it is credible. Gimme the raw improvements in percentage terms.

Cunningham said that Ryder was charged when he won 2007 tt nats. Guess Svein got a little tired of losing to other guys charging and winning.

He goes damn well when he is on the stuff everyone else is. But 3rd in the worlds tt is just not credible with his pedigree.
 
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blackcat said:
yep Bro.

don't think BB is Flyer personally. But he is deluded. And some here think he has the elixir.
How's it going Thunder. Good to see you here.
 
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Thoughtforfood said:
How's it going Thunder. Good to see you here.
and i with my left hand i was pushing your wifes face down my shaft, you spinless ****.
 
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blackcat said:
John, there is alot of speculation about Tuft. See how much wattage he needed to add to get 7th in the Olympics, and 3rd in the Worlds, and then get back to me if you think it is credible. Gimme the raw improvements in percentage terms.

Cunningham said that Ryder was charged when he won 2007 tt nats. Guess Svein got a little tired of losing to other guys charging and winning.

He goes damn well when he is on the stuff everyone else is. But 3rd in the worlds tt is just not credible with his pedigree.
So how much wattage did it take? What is the raw improvement in percentage terms? You ever ridden with him? Raced with him?

And if Cunningham said that about Ryder I'll eat my cycling shoes. References please. I guess Hezzy could be doped (how would I know - he's as local to me as Maxime Monfort) but that's a hell of a theory. Cunningham can't afford to pay Svein enough to afford an apartment, but all of a sudden they get jealous of Ryder and tens of thousands appear in their pockets to charge up Svein!? Seriously?

Do you even know the personalities involved? The whole set of suppositions on your part is laughable. Doping /= Cunningham or Tuft.

And yes, considering who showed up to World's the third place is almost exactly where you'd predict Tuft to be.

John Swanson
http://www.bikephysics.com
 
Mar 13, 2009
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ScienceIsCool said:
So how much wattage did it take? What is the raw improvement in percentage terms? You ever ridden with him? Raced with him?

And if Cunningham said that about Ryder I'll eat my cycling shoes. References please. I guess Hezzy could be doped (how would I know - he's as local to me as Maxime Monfort) but that's a hell of a theory. Cunningham can't afford to pay Svein enough to afford an apartment, but all of a sudden they get jealous of Ryder and tens of thousands appear in their pockets to charge up Svein!? Seriously?

Do you even know the personalities involved? The whole set of suppositions on your part is laughable. Doping /= Cunningham or Tuft.

And yes, considering who showed up to World's the third place is almost exactly where you'd predict Tuft to be.

John Swanson
http://www.bikephysics.com
my information is different from yours.
 
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blackcat said:
my information is different from yours.
My information comes from the people involved. Where does yours come from? Also, care to answer your own questions about wattage increases and percentage of improvement? For the majority of the time Svein doesn't even ride with a power meter (I only know this is true up until a year and a half ago - he might use one regularly now), so I'm not sure where your numbers are coming from.

John Swanson
http://www.bikephysics.com
 
Mar 13, 2009
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two different sources who have been involved in the national level. Not the pro national team however. There was grave cynicism. I am far far too removed to be credible, except assessing a jump in improvement, "knowing it when you see it" which is far from scientific, and liable to error. I concede that. But I defer to others.

By all reports, Svein is a fine character. I have this also stressed by a different source in US cycling, who is glowing in compliment about him.

Really, if he knows he is clean, what does it matter for chumps like me.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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jackhammer111 said:
and i with my left hand i was pushing your wifes face down my shaft, you spinless ****.
Whoa ho, did I just read that from Jackhammer.

:)
 
Jun 16, 2009
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ScienceIsCool said:
... Cunningham can't afford to pay Svein enough to afford an apartment, but all of a sudden they get jealous of Ryder and tens of thousands appear in their pockets to charge up Svein!? Seriously?
http://www.bikephysics.com
Thank You John. I hear all these theories but people never mention the dollars. I picture someone going to the bank "Yeah I'm an up & coming cyclist and i need a loan of 30 thousand dollars..."
My father was treated at a non profit cancer center and and received Procrit periodically and his COPAY cost well into the thousands every year.
But starving riders can some how afford to pay the full cost...
I am sure alot of riders are on a program , but far from all of them.
 
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runninboy said:
Thank You John. I hear all these theories but people never mention the dollars. I picture someone going to the bank "Yeah I'm an up & coming cyclist and i need a loan of 30 thousand dollars..."
My father was treated at a non profit cancer center and and received Procrit periodically and his COPAY cost well into the thousands every year.
But starving riders can some how afford to pay the full cost...
I am sure alot of riders are on a program , but far from all of them.
hang on, epo is now quite reasonable in the counterfeit variants from China. And Symmetrics was on a budget of about 500k US. So, Tuft would have been earning circa 50k as he was their team leader. The lesser riders on the squad would have been recieving 10k and less. Not Tuft. Perhaps not enough to put a down payment on a ritzy house in Toronto, but there was some solvency.

The US Open would have paid about 10 grand, divided 6 or 7 ways. He won the NAmerican UCI title, so the fact he accrued enough points, leads me to believe, his income was well north of 50k.

The final year of Symmetrics, they lost some of their supporting sponsors. No doubt he took a hit. But the trailer out the back of Cunninghams, was, partly, if you hear about his background, part lifestyle. More ascetic. Why pay a mortgage or rent, when you do not have too, and travel takes you away for about half the year.

This sounds much more plausible.

For all the bashing of the pro-dope crowd, this thesis that "one can't afford it" is also pure head in the sand, and denying the actual facts.
 
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I think in the case of Graeme Obree I think you could say he couldn't afford drugs, when he could barely afford to keep a roof over his families head.
 
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craig1985 said:
I think in the case of Graeme Obree I think you could say he couldn't afford drugs, when he could barely afford to keep a roof over his families head.
maybe if he had only one family he could afford to keep them in a house. Never knew Obree was a bigamist. Good on 'im, some good Mormon genes in Scotland, should emigrate to U-taaah!
 
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blackcat said:
hang on, epo is now quite reasonable in the counterfeit variants from China. And Symmetrics was on a budget of about 500k US. So, Tuft would have been earning circa 50k as he was their team leader. The lesser riders on the squad would have been recieving 10k and less. Not Tuft. Perhaps not enough to put a down payment on a ritzy house in Toronto, but there was some solvency.

The US Open would have paid about 10 grand, divided 6 or 7 ways. He won the NAmerican UCI title, so the fact he accrued enough points, leads me to believe, his income was well north of 50k.

The final year of Symmetrics, they lost some of their supporting sponsors. No doubt he took a hit. But the trailer out the back of Cunninghams, was, partly, if you hear about his background, part lifestyle. More ascetic. Why pay a mortgage or rent, when you do not have too, and travel takes you away for about half the year.

This sounds much more plausible.

For all the bashing of the pro-dope crowd, this thesis that "one can't afford it" is also pure head in the sand, and denying the actual facts.

The plane tickets weren't free. Neither was Jeremy Storie's coaching salary. Nor the mechanic's salary. Their hotel rooms used to cost some cash too. And Svein wasn't the "star" that earned so much more than anyone else. That half million got stretched really thin and Symmetrics had to rely on the kindness of others every once in a while.

The only reason Svein agreed to get back on a bike and race again was because Cunningham built it from the ground up as a drug free team. It took nearly five years of steady progression from a local team with lots of talent to a well-oiled machine that could compete at an international level.

There was no dope. This is just all too silly.

I have no idea what's going on at Garmin, so I can only speak for the past. Nobody on Symmetrics has had even the remotest connection to doping. I can't recall if they even had a team doctor. They certainly couldn't keep one on retainer. Maybe they used the UBC Sports Medicine Clinic? I don't know.

John Swanson
http://www.bikephysics.com
 
Mar 13, 2009
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ScienceIsCool said:
The plane tickets weren't free. Neither was Jeremy Storie's coaching salary. Nor the mechanic's salary. Their hotel rooms used to cost some cash too. And Svein wasn't the "star" that earned so much more than anyone else. That half million got stretched really thin and Symmetrics had to rely on the kindness of others every once in a while.

The only reason Svein agreed to get back on a bike and race again was because Cunningham built it from the ground up as a drug free team. It took nearly five years of steady progression from a local team with lots of talent to a well-oiled machine that could compete at an international level.

There was no dope. This is just all too silly.

I have no idea what's going on at Garmin, so I can only speak for the past. Nobody on Symmetrics has had even the remotest connection to doping. I can't recall if they even had a team doctor. They certainly couldn't keep one on retainer. Maybe they used the UBC Sports Medicine Clinic? I don't know.

John Swanson
http://www.bikephysics.com
well I heard from two different sources who have been involved in the national structure, and they were not connected. It seems if he won the bronze in the chrono last year, and he was clean, then he is a victim of his own great performance, and unbelievers.

I appreciate your opinion tho. But you did contradict yourself above, raising the UBC clinic. Most dopers use either sources in the peloton, local docs or cosmetic docs, or the internet, and are amateur alchemists, going to cuttingedgemuscle or using the IP within the peloton. You dont need NAmerican Ferrari.
 

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