Lloyd Mondory has strong opinions about Columbia and Saxo

[blackcat]

2007 Worlds
1 Fabian Cancellara (Switzerland) 55.41.3 (48.380 km/h)
2 Laszlo Bodrogi (Hungary) 0.52.1
3 Stef Clement (Netherlands) 0.57.8
4 Bert Grabsch (Germany) 1.12.2
5 Sebastian Lang (Germany) 1.17.5
6 Vladimir Gusev (Russia) 1.47.0
7 José Gutierrez Palacios (Spain) 1.56.2
8 Andrey Mizurov (Kazakhstan) 2.02.7
9 Vasili Kiryienka (Belarus) 2.03.5
10 Bradley Wiggins (Great Britain) 2.10.8
11 Dominique Cornu (Belgium) 2.11.0
12 David Zabriskie (USA) 2.13.9
13 Raivis Belohvosciks (Latvia) 2.19.8
14 Marco Pinotti (Italy) 2.20.1
15 Gustav Larsson (Sweden) 2.30.5
16 Matti Helminen (Finland) 2.32.0
17 Andrei Kunitski (Belarus) 2.38.0
18 David Millar (Great Britain) 2.40.1
19 Vincenzo Nibali (Italy) 2.42.1
20 Jason Mccartney (USA) 2.43.0
21 Vladimir Karpets (Russia) 2.48.4
22 Andriy Grivko (Ukraine) 2.57.8
23 Jurgen Van Den Broeck (Belgium) 3.03.2
24 Ryder Hesjedal (Canada) 3.07.9
25 Dmytro Grabovskyy (Ukraine) 3.21.4
26 Martin Garrido Mayorga (Argentina) 3.22.8
27 Brian Vandborg (Denmark) 3.26.2
28 Dimitri Champion (France) 3.39.3
29 Ben Day (Australia) 3.45.9
30 Svein Tuft (Canada) 3.46.0
31 Cameron Wurf (Australia) 3.48.9
32 David Mc Cann (Ireland) 3.49.5
33 Matias Medici (Argentina) 3.50.1
34 Benoît Vaugrenard (France) 4.00.3
35 Joost Posthuma (Netherlands) 4.00.8
36 Lars Ytting Bak (Denmark) 4.04.3
37 Eugen Wacker (Kyrgyzstan ) 4.09.6
38 Adam Hansen (Australia) 4.10.9
39 Glen Alan Chadwick (New Zealand) 4.12.9
40 Haijun Ma (China) 4.30.7
41 Hossein Askari (Iran) 4.32.8
42 Victor Hugo Pena Grisales (Colombia) 4.42.0
43 Jose Rodolfo Serpa Perez (Colombia) 4.48.9
44 James Perry (Lewis) 4.52.7
45 Michael Schär (Switzerland) 5.05.9
46 Luis Leon Sanchez Gil (Spain) 5.07.6
47 Simon Zahner (Switzerland) 5.09.5
48 Fumiyuki Beppu (Japan) 5.10.0
49 Gordon Mccauley (New Zealand) 5.11.5
50 Frantisek Rabon (Czech Republic) 5.15.5
51 Knut Anders Nor Fostervold (Norway) 5.17.0
52 Maciej Bodnar (Poland) 5.24.0
53 Stanislav Kozubek (Czech Republic) 5.25.2
54 Lukasz Bodnar (Poland) 5.26.2
55 Rupert Probst (Austria) 5.42.9
56 Gregor Gazvoda (Slovenia) 5.43.2
57 Ricardo Martins (Portugal) 5.52.0
58 David George (South Africa) 6.01.5
59 Jarmo Rissanen (Finland) 6.31.0
60 Evgeni Gerganov (Bulgaria) 6.37.5
61 Vladimir Tuychiev (Uzbekistan) 6.38.4
62 Dan Craven (Namibia) 6.39.2
63 Kristjan Fajt (Slovenia) 7.16.4
64 Erik Hoffmann (Namibia) 7.22.1
65 Baoqing Song (China) 7.29.1
66 Jgori Pugaci (Moldavia) 8.35.2
67 Zoltan Madaras (Hungary) 9.13.5
68 Muradjan Khalmuratov (Uzbekistan) 9.22.4
69 Dragan Spasic (Serbia) 9.46.6

Olympics
1 Fabian Cancellara (Switzerland) 1.02.11.43 (45.350 km/h)
2 Gustav Erik Larsson (Sweden) 0.33.36
3 Levi Leipheimer (United States) 1.09.68
4 Alberto Contador (Spain) 1.18.08
5 Cadel Evans (Australia) 1.23.54
6 Samuel Sánchez (Spain) 2.25.81
7 Svein Tuft (Canada) 2.28.01
8 Michael Rogers (Australia) 2.35.42
9 Stef Clement (Netherlands) 2.47.99
10 Robert Gesink (Netherlands) 2.51.45
11 Stephen Cummings (Great Britain) 2.56.48
12 David Zabriskie (United States) 3.06.39
13 Stefan Schumacher (Germany) 3.13.95
14 Bert Grabsch (Germany) 3.14.77
15 Vincenzo Nibali (Italy) 3.24.58
16 Ryder Hesjedal (Canada) 3.30.90
17 Rein Taaramae (Estonia) 3.35.90
18 Vladimir Karpets (Russia) 3.40.95
19 Chris Anker Sørensen (Denmark) 3.43.99
20 Denis Menchov (Russia) 3.59.11
21 Vasil Kiryienka (Belarus) 4.00.76
22 Marzio Bruseghin (Italy) 4.09.52
23 Kim Kirchen (Luxembourg) 4.18.20
24 Andrey Mizurov (Kazakhstan) 4.20.62
25 Santiago Botero (Colombia) 4.24.00
26 Maxime Monfort (Belgium) 5.01.28
27 Laszlo Bodrogi (Hungary) 5.16.06
28 Simon Spilak (Slovenia) 5.23.43
29 Matej Jurco (Slovakia) 5.41.49
30 Matias Medici (Argentina) 5.41.66
31 David George (South Africa) 5.43.78
32 Andriy Grivko (Ukraine) 5.49.82
33 Brian Bach Vandborg (Denmark) 5.58.77
34 Przemyslaw Niemiec (Poland) 6.32.00
35 Hossein Askari (IranIran) 6.34.87
36 Raivis Belohvosciks (Latvia) 6.43.53
37 Denys Kostyuk (Ukraine) 6.52.61
38 Matija Kvasina (Croatia) 6.55.06
39 Fumiyuki Beppu (Japan) 8.53.71

2008 Worlds
1 Bert Grabsch (Germany) 52.01.60 (50.407 km/h)
2 Svein Tuft (Canada) 0.42.79
3 David Zabriskie (United States Of America) 0.52.27
4 Levi Leipheimer (United States Of America) 1.05.42
5 Gustav Larsson (Sweden) 1.05.84
6 Stijn Devolder (Belgium) 1.15.41
7 Tony Martin (Germany) 1.16.26
8 Janez Brajkovic (Slovenia) 1.25.16
9 David Millar (Great Britain) 1.25.26
10 Sylvain Chavanel (France) 1.25.82
11 Vladimir Gusev (Russian Federation) 1.27.13
12 Michael Rogers (Australia) 1.33.32
13 Marco Pinotti (Italy) 1.34.12
14 Manuel Quinziato (Italy) 1.36.79
15 Serhiy Honchar (Ukraine) 1.38.00
16 José Ivan Gutierrez Palacios (Spain) 1.54.63
17 Matej Jurco (Slovakia) 1.58.00
18 Vasili Kiryienka (Belarus) 2.11.71
19 Lars Ytting Bak (Denmark) 2.23.43
20 Fredrik Ericsson (Sweden) 2.27.78
21 Edvald Boasson Hagen (Norway) 2.28.42
22 Stef Clement (Netherlands) 2.30.87
23 Eugen Wacker (Kyrgyzstan) 2.34.03
24 Michael Blaudzun (Denmark) 2.40.49
25 Stephen Cummings (Great Britain) 2.54.97
26 Mikhail Ignatiev (Russian Federation) 2.55.46
27 Andrei Kunitski (Belarus) 3.08.62
28 Lukasz Bodnar (Poland) 3.11.57
29 Rein Taaramae (Estonia) 3.20.25
30 Rubens Bertogliati (Switzerland) 3.20.99
31 Tanel Kangert (Estonia) 3.29.61
32 Ruben Plaza Molina (Spain) 3.29.82
33 Leif Hoste (Belgium) 3.30.65
34 Adam Hansen (Australia) 3.49.54
35 Gregor Gazvoda (Slovenia) 3.57.91
36 Maciej Bodnar (Poland) 4.01.12
37 Ignatas Konovalovas (Lithuania) 4.01.21
38 Frantisek Rabon (Czech Republic) 4.01.37
39 Cardenas Ravalo (Colombia) 4.11.56
40 Sergiy Matveiev (Ukraine) 4.19.18
41 Thomas Frei (Switzerland) 4.24.45
42 Jerome Coppel (France) 4.25.60
43 Ruslan Ivanov (Republic of Moldova) 4.28.15
44 Muradjan Khalmuratov (Uzbekistan) 4.32.01
45 Roman Kireyev (Kazakhstan) 4.32.12
46 Raivis Belohvosciks (Latvia) 4.34.83
47 Andrey Zeits (Kazakhstan) 4.56.48
48 Henry Mendez Raabe (Costa Rica) 4.59.98
49 Benoît Joachim (Luxembourg) 5.07.29
50 Robert Nagy (Slovakia) 5.38.21
51 Dan Craven (Namibia) 5.39.36
52 Matti Helminen (Finland) 5.40.76
53 Vladimir Tuychiev (Uzbekistan) 5.46.38
54 Zoltan Madaras (Hungary) 6.32.44
55 Esad Hasanovic (Serbia) 7.17.14
56 Gabriel Sorin Pop (Romania) 8.24.54
57 George-Daniel Anghelache (Romania) 8.43.14

 

[blackcat]

lets parse this thing:

2006
1 Fabian Cancellara (Switzerland) 1.00.11.75 (50.664 km/h)
2 David Zabriskie (United States Of America) 1.29.97
3 Alexandr Vinokurov (Kazakhstan) 1.49.72
8 Michael Rogers (Australia) 2.31.86
14 José Ivan Gutierrez Palacios (Spain) 3.07.46
15 David Millar (Great Britain) 3.21.99
16 Vincenzo Nibali (Italy) 3.27.01
19 Laszlo Bodrogi (Hungary) 3.51.02
22 Ryder Hesjedal (Canada) 4.12.29
25 Gustav Larsson (Sweden) 4.23.46
27 Andreas Klöden (Germany) 4.42.21
28 Svein Tuft (Canada) 4.45.57
29 Thomas Lövkvist (Sweden) 4.59.26
32 Ondrej Sosenka (Czech Republic) 5.15.38

2007
1 Fabian Cancellara (Switzerland) 55.41.3 (48.380 km/h)
2 Laszlo Bodrogi (Hungary) 0.52.1
4 Bert Grabsch (Germany) 1.12.2
10 Bradley Wiggins (Great Britain) 2.10.8
12 David Zabriskie (USA) 2.13.9
14 Marco Pinotti (Italy) 2.20.1
15 Gustav Larsson (Sweden) 2.30.5
18 David Millar (Great Britain) 2.40.1
19 Vincenzo Nibali (Italy) 2.42.1
24 Ryder Hesjedal (Canada) 3.07.9
30 Svein Tuft (Canada) 3.46.0

Olympics
1 Fabian Cancellara (Switzerland) 1.02.11.43 (45.350 km/h)
2 Gustav Erik Larsson (Sweden) 0.33.36
3 Levi Leipheimer (United States) 1.09.68
4 Alberto Contador (Spain) 1.18.08
5 Cadel Evans (Australia) 1.23.54
6 Samuel Sánchez (Spain) 2.25.81
7 Svein Tuft (Canada) 2.28.01
8 Michael Rogers (Australia) 2.35.42
12 David Zabriskie (United States) 3.06.39
13 Stefan Schumacher (Germany) 3.13.95
14 Bert Grabsch (Germany) 3.14.77
15 Vincenzo Nibali (Italy) 3.24.58
16 Ryder Hesjedal (Canada) 3.30.909
20 Denis Menchov (Russia) 3.59.11
23 Kim Kirchen (Luxembourg) 4.18.20
27 Laszlo Bodrogi (Hungary) 5.16.06

2008 Worlds
1 Bert Grabsch (Germany) 52.01.60 (50.407 km/h)
2 Svein Tuft (Canada) 0.42.79
3 David Zabriskie (United States Of America) 0.52.27
4 Levi Leipheimer (United States Of America) 1.05.42
5 Gustav Larsson (Sweden) 1.05.84
9 David Millar (Great Britain) 1.25.26
12 Michael Rogers (Australia) 1.33.32
13 Marco Pinotti (Italy) 1.34.12
15 Serhiy Honchar (Ukraine) 1.38.00
16 José Ivan Gutierrez Palacios (Spain) 1.54.63
21 Edvald Boasson Hagen (Norway) 2.28.42
26 Mikhail Ignatiev (Russian Federation) 2.55.46
27 Andrei Kunitski (Belarus) 3.08.62
28 Lukasz Bodnar (Poland) 3.11.57
29 Rein Taaramae (Estonia) 3.20.25
30 Rubens Bertogliati (Switzerland) 3.20.99
31 Tanel Kangert (Estonia) 3.29.61
32 Ruben Plaza Molina (Spain) 3.29.82

I just do not find this progression credible, sorry. I think it requires you to stick your head in the sand.

The fact is if Tuft was a gun chrono rider, he would be winning chronos in Europe. He is not.

 

[Izoard]

I agree with SiC. I think the reason ST's results are up there now are: 1) decreased doping overall in the peloton, and 2) ST getting back into the sport after he took some time off from racing after Prime Alliance.

 

[BigBoat]

I agree with SiC. I think the reason ST's results are up there now are: 1) decreased doping overall in the peloton, and 2) ST getting back into the sport after he took some time off from racing after Prime Alliance.

With all due respect Svein was a good rider clean but if you can get a 2nd at worlds without dope you'd win the TDF 10 times with dope and make 100 million bucks.

So how much wattage did it take? What is the raw improvement in percentage terms? You ever ridden with him? Raced with him?
[/url]

20-30% more FTP power.

2006
1 Fabian Cancellara (Switzerland) 1.00.11.75 (50.664 km/h)
2 David Zabriskie (United States Of America) 1.29.97
3 Alexandr Vinokurov (Kazakhstan) 1.49.72
8 Michael Rogers (Australia) 2.31.86
14 José Ivan Gutierrez Palacios (Spain) 3.07.46
15 David Millar (Great Britain) 3.21.99
16 Vincenzo Nibali (Italy) 3.27.01
19 Laszlo Bodrogi (Hungary) 3.51.02
22 Ryder Hesjedal (Canada) 4.12.29
25 Gustav Larsson (Sweden) 4.23.46
27 Andreas Klöden (Germany) 4.42.21
28 Svein Tuft (Canada) 4.45.57
29 Thomas Lövkvist (Sweden) 4.59.26
32 Ondrej Sosenka (Czech Republic) 5.15.38

The fact is if Tuft was a gun chrono rider, he would be winning chronos in Europe. He is not.

Ya!

 

[blackcat]

I agree with SiC. I think the reason ST's results are up there now are: 1) decreased doping overall in the peloton, and 2) ST getting back into the sport after he took some time off from racing after Prime Alliance.

pure fantasy. Second in the world in the tt? Did he show those power output wattage numbers at Prime Alliance. Did he win tts left right and centre? Come on, you are grasping, he won the worlds. Every other rider up there has a pedigree in this discipline, and is most likely highly charged. But you expect us to believe ST was clean?

He would be the most talented timetrialer in the peloton if so.

Have a look how far Millar has gone backwards now at Garmin-Slipstream. So, you would tell us, Millar is an inferior timetrialer to Svein Tuft, as the podium at worlds is now out of Millar's reach. Bull**** that thesis is, absolute bull****.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

well I heard from two different sources who have been involved in the national structure, and they were not connected. It seems if he won the bronze in the chrono last year, and he was clean, then he is a victim of his own great performance, and unbelievers.

I appreciate your opinion tho. But you did contradict yourself above, raising the UBC clinic. Most dopers use either sources in the peloton, local docs or cosmetic docs, or the internet, and are amateur alchemists, going to cuttingedgemuscle or using the IP within the peloton. You dont need NAmerican Ferrari.

I'm sorry, but this is getting way past ridiculous. It's clear you have no idea whatsoever about the personalities involved or the reality of their situation.

I speculated that Symmetrics *could* be using the UBC clinic, but I have no idea. All I said is that I don't think they had a team doctor. At least I don't recall one and they certainly couldn't afford one.

Besides, the UBC clinic is filled mainly with physiotherapists, sports psychologists, physiologists and endless grad students who are doing studies in biomechanics, biophysics, all the above categories, etc, etc, etc. Heck, one of my (now ex-) teammates is a grad student there. It's not a doping center and there are precious few physicians.

I'm already regretting signing up here... I'm done with this thread and don't intend to respond any further. Take care.

John Swanson
http://www.bikephysics.com

 

[BigBoat]

I'm sorry, but this is getting way past ridiculous. It's clear you have no idea whatsoever about the personalities involved or the reality of their situation.

I
http://www.bikephysics.com

I dont think Svein's doping is ridiculous, all the top riders dope except a few outside top 50 places.

I speculated that Symmetrics *could* be using the UBC clinic

Symmetrics could have been using a clinic but more likely their just using dynepo to keep "naturally" high crits. Peanuts to buy epo off the internet. It is a lower budget operation and it takes some serious money to blood dope properly.

 

[TRDean]

I think the Skil-Shimano team are clean. Just look how they could barely pull through in the stage 3 break at the Tour. They looked like they could barely hang on...yet there were the columbia boys riding hard, but still able to talke to each other, and perform pretty darn well in the team time trial the next day. I thought the same from the two astana boys in there as well. Skil is not a hack team...they are made up of some very good riders...yet they looked like they were getting flogged in that break. That says something to me...my radar is up on columbia!

 

[rolfrae]

I think the Skil-Shimano team are clean. Just look how they could barely pull through in the stage 3 break at the Tour. They looked like they could barely hang on...yet there were the columbia boys riding hard, but still able to talke to each other, and perform pretty darn well in the team time trial the next day. I thought the same from the two astana boys in there as well. Skil is not a hack team...they are made up of some very good riders...yet they looked like they were getting flogged in that break. That says something to me...my radar is up on columbia!

I have to say Rogers looked totally wiped when they were interviewing him after stage 3. Mind you, so did Kohl after Alpe D last year.

 

[blackcat]

Tony Martin looked shattered.

They all went deep.

 

[TRDean]

Yes they did go deep...then turned around and rode a hell of a TTT the next day...that is some fantastic recovery!! I stay skeptical!!

 

[Returnofthewolf]

So, you would tell us, Millar is an inferior timetrialer to Svein Tuft, as the podium at worlds is now out of Millar's reach. Bull**** that thesis is, absolute bull****.

Uhhhh, why is it so implausible that Tuft is a better TT'r than Millar?

So what was Tufts average wattage for the Olympic and Worlds TT?

Why would you sit around and speculate and tarnish somebodys reputation when you obviously dont know what you are talking about? The guy has the fawking upside down antidoping 13 TATTOOED ON HIS FAWKING ARM you knuckleheads!

I do agree that to say 'so and so' cant afford to dope is silly though.

One more thing, If one more imbecile on here says "20-30%" improvement from blood doping/epo Im gonna crack some damn skulls. (Probably a 5-7% increase in FTP from your absolute best possible peak clean condition, which is still a HELL of a lot)

Enjoy the racing, this period is probably as clean as professional cycling has ever been. (and maybe ever will be)

 

[131313]

pure fantasy. Second in the world in the tt? Did he show those power output wattage numbers at Prime Alliance. Did he win tts left right and centre? Come on, you are grasping, he won the worlds. Every other rider up there has a pedigree in this discipline, and is most likely highly charged. But you expect us to believe ST was clean?

He would be the most talented timetrialer in the peloton if so.

Have a look how far Millar has gone backwards now at Garmin-Slipstream. So, you would tell us, Millar is an inferior timetrialer to Svein Tuft, as the podium at worlds is now out of Millar's reach. Bull**** that thesis is, absolute bull****.

wow...you guys are seriously delusional. Svein is clean, and his 6% power increase in w/kg is quite easy to figure out: he was about 12 pounds lighter for worlds. The 2006 worlds result? He had been 'training' for about 8 weeks prior to the event.

If he's doping, he was doing so as a Cat 5, since his actual power increase in raw terms isn't actually that much since he first started racing--on the order of about 15-20 watts at threshold.

The demand side of the equation has greatly changed for him as well. Both his position and equipment are several orders of magnitude better than 2-3 years ago. His palmares and class speak for themselves.

If EPO really had a '20-30%' increase and Svein were doping, he'd win the tour by 10+ minutes.

 

[blackcat]

someone oughta tell me why if Svein can get second in the worlds clean, he becomes pack fodder in the chronos in Europe. It does not make sense.

****ing in the wind fellas...

 

[A moron]

Prior to his first Tour de France, Lloyd Mondory did not mince his words towards training Saxo Bank and Columbia. The rider of AG2R-La Mondiale is "disgusted to see" reborn from its ashes "Fabien Cancellara in the last Tour de Suisse. Mondory is also tender with Frank Schleck:" I was running against him in junior, when he was in the team Châteauroux. After all progress differently. But compared to him, I have not progressed at all (laughs)! "He says, before recalling that Frank Schleck has nothing to do on a bike if it is proved that a a check of 7,000 euros to Doctor Fuentes.

About the Tour of Switzerland, the behavior of the Columbia team, who recorded seven victories stage, also called Mondory. "It's disgusting. Then we say that all is well in cycling. But that's disgusting. There are things that seem too big for you to want to believe it" concludes that some teams leave may not be starting in a breakaway during the three weeks of the Tour ...
http://www.cyclismag.com/article.php?sid=5124#ancre1

I really appreciate that Mondory has the guts to say what every clean rider in the peloton thinks! It's disgusting, and even those who are not involved in what's going on, know what you'd have to do, to finish Top 20 or 30...
It's called "sangue blu" or "EPO 4th Generation"...
But many riders fear sanctions or legal actions by teams or particular riders!

Moreover I can tell that I've raced against/with Andy Schleck at the age of 17 or 18... He bonked everywhere (which he still does, a bit differently though), and he would only finish stages holding the bike rack of Luxembourg's team car...
I may not be the most talented rider, and I don't envy him... It's just a fact that he was as slow as I was those days.
Roman Kreuziger for example has always been an ace... Even as a 15-year old!

 

[blackcat]

think the Velits brothers have a similar opinion, after outriding him as a junior.

 

[Escarabajo]

Moreover I can tell that I've raced against/with Andy Schleck at the age of 17 or 18... He bonked everywhere (which he still does, a bit differently though), and he would only finish stages holding the bike rack of Luxembourg's team car...
I may not be the most talented rider, and I don't envy him... It's just a fact that he was as slow as I was those days.
Roman Kreuziger for example has always been an ace... Even as a 15-year old!

Good info. I apreciate it.
Thanks.

 

[Escarabajo]

One more thing, If one more imbecile on here says "20-30%" improvement from blood doping/epo Im gonna crack some damn skulls. (Probably a 5-7% increase in FTP from your absolute best possible peak clean condition, which is still a HELL of a lot)

Relax. It is just a forum.

Besides you don't even know the exact power increase either my friend. There has been some technical research posted in this Forum that the power increase can go up to 20% or even more. It does not always have to be 20% as you well know that. Depends on the Physiology of each person. Just comparing Armstrong Pre-Cancer and Post-Cancer the increase was a lot more than 5-7% as you said. So starting with that you are wrong. I am sure you can do the calculations with the time trials.

You also have to look at the average natural hematocrit level for each rider to begin with. Some people get bigger boost than others depending where you start. If I have 41% natural hematocrit baseline and some other dude has 47% to begin with, he probably won’t get that much of a boost as I will get. I am neither scientist nor a Doctor but this is common sense, so I recommend you not to start cracking any skulls yet.

Well, here it is. At least a found the info. Enjoy.
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/11/effect-of-epo-on-performance-who.html

 

[Returnofthewolf]

Relax. It is just a forum.

Besides you don't even know the exact power increase either my friend. There has been some technical research posted in this Forum that the power increase can go up to 20% or even more. It does not always have to be 20% as you well know that. Depends on the Physiology of each person. Just comparing Armstrong Pre-Cancer and Post-Cancer the increase was a lot more than 5-7% as you said. So starting with that you are wrong. I am sure you can do the calculations with the time trials.

You also have to look at the average natural hematocrit level for each rider to begin with. Some people get bigger boost than others depending where you start. If I have 41% natural hematocrit baseline and some other dude has 47% to begin with, he probably won’t get that much of a boost as I will get. I am neither scientist nor a Doctor but this is common sense, so I recommend you not to start cracking any skulls yet.

Well, here it is. At least a found the info. Enjoy.
http://www.sportsscientists.com/2007/11/effect-of-epo-on-performance-who.html

Im relaxed. I realize its a 'forum', hence my "cracking skulls" was not literal...although maybe some of the guys on here do deserve a little pimp-slap smack upside the head in person.

Anyway, did you read the article you linked? It echoes exactly what I said! Carefully reread how I conditioned my statement, the absolute clean peak of fitness, 5-7%@ FTP. Elite riders who have exhausted every possible avenue within the rules, do NOT then tack on another 20% in functional power via blood manipulation.

I have no agenda. I simply seek the truth, love cycling, and frankly have a vast knowledge of the subject...both academically and in the trenches.

The amount of incorrect information I read on these forums, both by the Doperatti(everyone and their italian grandma is doping) AND by the doping ostriches (no doping ever, fanboy kooks) is staggering (impossible to keep up with) and laughable.

Hayden Roulstons insights are pretty interesting though I must say, that guy is a FU CKING GOOD bike rider fwiw.

My 6 beers has me less than articulate and rambling I think....cheers dudes.

 

[blackcat]

ROW, 20%? How about the final tt, a perfectly clean rider, his entire career, nothing from team docs.

And Armstrong, the recovery drugs, the O2 techniques, and the androgens-testo and other steroids?

But stage 18 tt, lots of riders are shot. Some have the same power as the prologue. How does that happen? In this case, 20% is not ridiculous.

 

[TRDean]

There is a difference in % increase and the difference between non dopers loosing power over the course of a tour and doped riders not. A delta of 20% is huge no matter how you look at it. Also, in addition to higher FTP doped riders recover better...that is where I think there are huge gains over non doped riders.

 

[blackcat]

prologues? Or tts in excess of 8km starting a tour, but short-medium, under 20km?

Not in his hitting zone?