Logisitcs

[HelmutRoole]

It was busted.

You're saying OP was busted as in a police raid and thus incompetent and thus isolated? That OP wasn't the standard way of doing business? That of the nearly 200 athletes from various sports, this was their first try at doping? That they went to Fuentes and said, "We have no delivery method, but we'll figure that part out later?" Or are you saying that, they all went there this one time to dope for the smaller races and got busted?

Are you saying that Fuentes was new to the game of doping? I believe that's been document to be untrue.

Please expound as I'm having trouble gathering meaning from you three-word retort.

 

[Race Radio]

But how often does it happen? It's such a clumsy way of doping that it seems unlikely. Those that do get caught are no doubt caught because of this fact, and are not the tip of the iceberg. It's just naive to think it's widespread in the major tours.

You easily ignore that the USPS team chiropractor was filmed driving miles out of his way, in an unmarked car, to dump multiple used bags of PED's and syringes.

You seem to forget that Manzano gave detail about how dope was delivered, and consumed, during GT's

OP ran for almost 3 years. Fuentes had two assistants that would deliver blood bags and dope to the races.

I think we can all agree that neither you, nor your previous username Arbiter, know anything about the subject.

How is the soccer team going this year House? Shouldn't you be cutting up orange slices?

 

[Race Radio]

So you're saying one clinic was providing blood bags for all the tour riders and motorcycles were busily coming in and out transporting in front of everybody to all the riders, all over Europe...la..la..la?

You have never been to a bike race have you?

 

[Race Radio]

Why do I easily ignore this? This precisely shows how difficult it is. If it was widespread then there would be a hell of a lot more incidents like this. Remember that cars and vans are often searched by the authorities. Blood doping is a lot rarer than the cynical cool people like to think - that's what logic shows us.

It precisely shows how common it was, no matter how hard you try to ignore it.

Certainly usage has dropped, but you are naive to think that it has stopped because of team cars being searched. In 1998 Festina and TVM were found with dope in their cars. France instituted a new law criminalizing doping. Team cars were routinely searched. This did not stop Armstrong from using EPO in 1999. It did not stop USPS from bringing a truck load of dope to the Tour in 2000. It did not stop Kelme, Telekom, etc. from running internal doping programs. During much of the 2000's team car searches were common, but organized doping continued.....you would have to be naive to think otherwise, I think we can all agree on that.

 

[HelmutRoole]

So you're saying one clinic was providing blood bags for all the tour riders and motorcycles were busily coming in and out transporting in front of everybody to all the riders, all over Europe...la..la..la?

So you're saying the one clinic that was got busted?

 

[bianchigirl]

Don't forget Humanplasma, and the 4 or 5 other bood doping rings that have been alluded to by Franke amongst others.

 

[Race Radio]

No trolling please. Stop this silly thing about 'House' as well. If you've got nothing to contribute then stay out of the discussion.

It is not Trolling, it is a legit question. It is clear you know little of the sport.

I saw my first Grand Tour live almost 30 years ago when I was 13 years old, how about you? Your comments show you have never been to a race, either as a participant or a observer. The chaos of the circus that follows a GT is insane, it would be easy for a person on a motorcycle or motor home to blend in. Add in the fact that many of the DS' are willing enablers and the process becomes easier still.

 

[Anonymous]

No trolling please. Stop this silly thing about 'House' as well. If you've got nothing to contribute then stay out of the discussion.

You are just AWESOME!!! What a great yank that one is!

 

[Anonymous]

Some memory you have from a trip 30 years ago isn't going to cut it as evidence. It's good that you're back into the sport after a long break but you shouldn't attack those that are dealing with the modern game.

Now, of course, people could probably slip in with bags here and there, but if it was truly a mass operation for most teams then there would be a lot more mistakes and people getting caught. I don't think you understand what a huge scale we are talking about. We'd have far more people in the supply chain speaking out and selling their story than there has been. Then there's the issue of the big teams like Astana, who have a huge media focus on them. The press is going to be following their every movement 24 hours a day, and authorities keeping a close eye - they even searched one of their trucks on suspicion this year. The risks involved are incredible.

Astounding! You RULE!!! Everyone will look at that and think, "he is right, people who deal illegal recreational drugs are always turning themselves in and selling their stories about their jobs. Its a wonder anyone ever gets to smoke dope!" What an amazing display of trollkraft!

 

[Cobblestones]

Astounding! You RULE!!! Everyone will look at that and think, "he is right, people who deal illegal recreational drugs are always turning themselves in and selling their stories about their jobs. Its a wonder anyone ever gets to smoke dope!" What an amazing display of trollkraft!

+1

Logistics is done by people whose income depends on cycling. Soigneurs, assistants etc. Not only that, they're probably addicted to cycling as much as anybody here on the forum and enjoy being part of it. If they come out and tell all, what's going to happen to them? You think they ever get any employment in cycling? The comparison to drug dealers is apt.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Motorcycle delivery guys and hotel staff aren't like some two bit drug dealer.

You know, I am beginning to see your point. You are right none of this has ever happened. It would be impossible. We have won the war on drugs in pro cycling !.
I'm glad that's over. We'll see you on another thread then?
Bye.

 

[Race Radio]

Some memory you have from a trip 30 years ago isn't going to cut it as evidence. It's good that you're back into the sport after a long break but you shouldn't attack those that are dealing with the modern game.

Now, of course, people could probably slip in with bags here and there, but if it was truly a mass operation for most teams then there would be a lot more mistakes and people getting caught. I don't think you understand what a huge scale we are talking about. We'd have far more people in the supply chain speaking out and selling their story than there has been. Then there's the issue of the big teams like Astana, who have a huge media focus on them. The press is going to be following their every movement 24 hours a day, and authorities keeping a close eye - they even searched one of their trucks on suspicion this year. The risks involved are incredible.

You assume that was the only time, as usual you are wrong

I lived in Europe for many years and I split my time with the US today. I spent my youth in team vans driving endless miles to races and sleeping 6 to a room. More recent years I have been to a huge variety of races as both a sponsor and a spectator....yourself?

You ignore the huge amount of evidence showing you are wrong. You are either a troll or have comprehension issues.....or both

 

[Race Radio]

That rather backs up what I am saying. The idea all of these lowly paid people, with the world's media and the law on their backs, wouldn't be more foward, is rather far fetched.

The more we think about this, the more convinced we become.

You mean like Jesus Manzano, Emma O'Reilly, Jef d'Hont, Willy Voigt,...the list goes on.

your shtick is getting weaker daily.

 

[bianchigirl]

The very fact that BPC thinks this is carried out by motorcycle delivery boys and chambermaids and appears never to have heard the word soigneur rather says it all for his argument, or lack thereof. Though the thought of a doping ring organised by Dominos using French maids as runners has a certain bizarre charm...

 

[Anonymous]

That rather backs up what I am saying. The idea all of these lowly paid people, with the world's media and the law on their backs, wouldn't be more foward, is rather far fetched.

The more we think about this, the more convinced we become.

That is just DAZZLING in it's trollkraftiness. You are going to have to stop soon because I am going to need to use a thesaurus to describe your exploits. You are right, only fairy's and day walkers can get drugs to people who want them. I am sure that is who gets all the heroin back stage at an Amy Winehouse concert because the authorities know she is banging up; there is no way they would allow anyone to get it to her ever.

 

[beroepsrenner]

soigneurs are the main supply channel.......

 

[Mellow Velo]

The very fact that BPC thinks this is carried out by motorcycle delivery boys and chambermaids and appears never to have heard the word soigneur rather says it all for his argument, or lack thereof. Though the thought of a doping ring organised by Dominos using French maids as runners has a certain bizarre charm...

Extra topping on Armstrong's pizzas?........Mais oui m'selle...
Clever. BPC may be on to something?.....or maybe just on something.

 

[Hugh Januss]

You ignore the huge amount of evidence showing you are wrong. You are either a troll or have comprehension issues.....or both

You are ignoring a third posibility, that he is mildly (or more) *** and his parents got him a computer as a kind of electronic babysitter.

 

[Anonymous]

You are ignoring a third posibility, that he is mildly (or more) *** and his parents got him a computer as a kind of electronic babysitter.

..or he is an absolute GENIUS because nobody could be that stupid.

 

[Hugh Januss]

..or he is an absolute GENIUS because nobody could be that stupid.

Four posibilities then.

 

[Von Mises]

But these are all legit questions? How often it is done and and on what scale? Some posters assume that all teams and majority of riders are heavily doped. If true, then indeed, we are talking massive operations, logistics and costs.

It is hard to believe that team buses are full of dope products, at least during recent years. Even if searches are rare, there is still huge risk.

And costs? if my memory serves correctly then Kohl said that had paid 100 000 euros a year out of his pocket. (Though, considering that Kohl was serial lier, his claims are not very reliable. For instance I dont believe that he was tested 200 times as he said, the number what is often used as a proof how useless doping tests are).

So, what is the scale of doping? majority of riders? How is the logistics organized? Do they do it during grand tours, how many times? During preparation for Tour? Occasionally, for instance after "bad" day, to get quicker recovery, after injuries?

 

[HelmutRoole]

This is all obviously true - my original question was more how do they actually do a transfusion during a major tour? I would guess that David Walsh and everyone else is on the lookout for motorcycles with refrigerated panniers, so what is being used now? Dr. Ferrari and others must be hired for their logistical expertise along with their medical knowledge. It doesn't seem to me to be a simple thing to transport as much blood as would be required to keep the pro peloton going and not have somebody trip up or get caught.

Maybe the idea of sequestering the riders like Kirin racers is the way to go - it would certainly erase a lot of the doubts that may be out there.

Nice shtick House. You seem to acknowledge that blood doping happened but isn't happening as much now. I'll go along with that. Likely athletes are using next generation CERA/EPO that is currently undetectable, which shouldn't be too hard to fathom since there is a precedent: BALCO.

As for sequestering the 200 cyclists at a Pro Tour event 24/7, the image of herding cats comes to mind. Also, this flies in the face the American standard of innocent-until-proven-guilty that is often espoused in relation to doping and athletic accomplishments.

Also, it's pelOton, not pelEton, as corrected above.

 

[Race Radio]

Why are you making stuff about? The motor cycle thing was in the original post and was a rumour started by Jonathon Vaughters. And where did I say I'd never heard of a soignear? Obviously the people that aren't paid by the team, such as the hotel security teams looking at CCTV, journalists, or some motorcycle guy who not a member of the team outfit and is just being paid to do a job, are more likely to grass. Pay attention.

Fuentes used a motorcycle delivery person as well. He never had a problem slipping past the impregnable security of the two Star F1 hotel. You again prove you do not know what you are talking about. Riders stay in crappy hotels. No CCTV, No security teams.

What is a soignear?

 

[Race Radio]

Another brave poster...

Another poster who cannot read....his questions have been answered multiple times

 

[East Sycamore]

Nice shtick House. You seem to acknowledge that blood doping happened but isn't happening as much now. I'll go along with that. Likely athletes are using next generation CERA/EPO that is currently undetectable, which shouldn't be too hard to fathom since there is a precedent: BALCO.

As for sequestering the 200 cyclists at a Pro Tour event 24/7, the image of herding cats comes to mind. Also, this flies in the face the American standard of innocent-until-proven-guilty that is often espoused in relation to doping and athletic accomplishments.

Also, it's pelOton, not pelEton, as corrected above.

First of all, sorry for the spelling error - that must be an internet first.

My point in the original post was not to prove that blood doping doesn't happen anymore or anything like that. I was just curious HOW it all happens. It seems to me that some of what is going on must be very difficult to pull off with all of the scrutiny of a grand tour (but not necessarily impossible). I thought that this forum would be a good place to get some more information from people who know what really goes on.

If all anyone knows is that it probably happens in non-team hotel rooms or during quick trips to a rented apartment then that's fine - we can all move on to something else.