Logisitcs

[East Sycamore]

Let me start by saying that I'm as cynical as the next person and have no trouble believing that there is a lot of doping going on in pro cycling and there probably has been as long as I've been following it (since '85, but I really would like to believe that Andy H. and Greg were clean but wouldn't be shocked to find out otherwise). It would seem humanly impossible to beat (again and again) riders who have now admitted to heavy duty doping without doing it yourself.

All of that being said, there are a couple of things that have been nagging at me:

-How is it possible to blood dope with transfusions, etc. during an event with as much scrutiny as a grand tour? I've heard about the motorcycles with refrigerated panniers and all that, but a photo of one of those pulling up to the Astana team bus has got to be worth a fortune to a photographer / journalist! How would they slip in and out undetected (or conversely, how would the riders slip out to some place they could do a transfusion)? Wouldn't your arms be a mess of needle marks from all of the IV hookups? I know when I get drawn for a test I bruise for several days! Would it solve the problem to have a private detective trail the top 5 GC contenders?

-Some have theorized that Hamilton and Vino were caught because they messed up and used someone else's blood bag. This if obviously possible, but wouldn't the odds be that the blood types wouldn't match? If that happened you would be in serious trouble, and a positive test would be the least of your troubles!

Again, no need to convince me that doping is rampant, just trying to get my head around how it would all work day to day during a major event.

 

[Dude17]

-How is it possible to blood dope with transfusions, etc. during an event with as much scrutiny as a grand tour? I've heard about the motorcycles with refrigerated panniers and all that, but a photo of one of those pulling up to the Astana team bus has got to be worth a fortune to a photographer / journalist! How would they slip in and out undetected (or conversely, how would the riders slip out to some place they could do a transfusion)? Wouldn't your arms be a mess of needle marks from all of the IV hookups? I know when I get drawn for a test I bruise for several days! Would it solve the problem to have a private detective trail the top 5 GC contenders?

-Some have theorized that Hamilton and Vino were caught because they messed up and used someone else's blood bag. This if obviously possible, but wouldn't the odds be that the blood types wouldn't match? If that happened you would be in serious trouble, and a positive test would be the least of your troubles!

Again, no need to convince me that doping is rampant, just trying to get my head around how it would all work day to day during a major event.

From my understanding (limited as it is):
-The riders aren't under 24 hour surveillance. Visitors come and go.
-The number of people that go in and out of any particular hotel helps give cover to anyone coming in. They're bringing in blood bags... okay, how do you know that the couple that looks like tourists carrying that tote bag aren't bringing it in? The odds of that hypothetical tourist handing the tote to the actual rider are slim to none. Would go to some lower level flunky on the team and then up the chain.
-Needle marks would be said to be "internal team doping controls" or "treatment for dehydration using saline."
-As for getting the wrong blood, that could be disasterous.

 

[fashionboy]

Again, no need to convince me that doping is rampant, just trying to get my head around how it would all work day to day during a major event.

 

[blackcat]

rest days, hotels not the team hotels, apartments along the route, alternative meeting points.

As you imply, these logistics should be quite easy to prevent. You have a 5.3 million blood passport, euros that is, and it does jack sheet

 

[East Sycamore]

So if you were a team that was actually clean would it make more sense to save all the money you spend on testing your own team and instead hire a detective to follow the riders ahead of your team on GC? Odds are you could knock a couple of them down with a few incriminating photos.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

So if you were a team that was actually clean would it make more sense to save all the money you spend on testing your own team and instead hire a detective to follow the riders ahead of your team on GC? Odds are you could knock a couple of them down with a few incriminating photos.

Omerta doesn't really work like that. Besides, unless the riders actually fail tests most evidence is dismissed, and the best prepared riders know how to prepare effectively without failing tests.

I imagine now that even if police found epo and transfusion equipment in a raid on the Astana bus Pat McQuaid wouldn't want it pursued as the riders blood passports hadn't indicated anything suspicious.

Although, it is rumoured that Roger Legeay of GAN tipped French customs off about Festina just before the 98 tour.

 

[blackcat]

Omerta doesn't really work like that. Besides, unless the riders actually fail tests most evidence is dismissed, and the best prepared riders know how to prepare effectively without failing tests.

I imagine now that even if police found epo and transfusion equipment in a raid on the Astana bus Pat McQuaid wouldn't want it pursued as the riders blood passports hadn't indicated anything suspicious.

Although, it is rumoured that Roger Legeay of GAN tipped French customs off about Festina just before the 98 tour.

was that rumour prior to the Balco needle at the training track with the clear?

 

[blackcat]

Omerta doesn't really work like that. Besides, unless the riders actually fail tests most evidence is dismissed, and the best prepared riders know how to prepare effectively without failing tests.

I imagine now that even if police found epo and transfusion equipment in a raid on the Astana bus Pat McQuaid wouldn't want it pursued as the riders blood passports hadn't indicated anything suspicious.

Although, it is rumoured that Roger Legeay of GAN tipped French customs off about Festina just before the 98 tour.

its also a little suspicious, they get Frigo and Rumsas' wife with their stash.

How often do they follow Hushovd and check his parents camper, when he goes in. They would not be carrying anything like Astana bus, but surely, it is a prime spot for priming Thor. Who is his manager, and does he bring a rucksack to the camper?

 

[Cobber]

Let me start by saying that I'm as cynical as the next person and have no trouble believing that there is a lot of doping going on in pro cycling and there probably has been as long as I've been following it (since '85, but I really would like to believe that Andy H. and Greg were clean but wouldn't be shocked to find out otherwise). It would seem humanly impossible to beat (again and again) riders who have now admitted to heavy duty doping without doing it yourself.

All of that being said, there are a couple of things that have been nagging at me:

-How is it possible to blood dope with transfusions, etc. during an event with as much scrutiny as a grand tour? I've heard about the motorcycles with refrigerated panniers and all that, but a photo of one of those pulling up to the Astana team bus has got to be worth a fortune to a photographer / journalist! How would they slip in and out undetected (or conversely, how would the riders slip out to some place they could do a transfusion)? Wouldn't your arms be a mess of needle marks from all of the IV hookups? I know when I get drawn for a test I bruise for several days! Would it solve the problem to have a private detective trail the top 5 GC contenders?

-Some have theorized that Hamilton and Vino were caught because they messed up and used someone else's blood bag. This if obviously possible, but wouldn't the odds be that the blood types wouldn't match? If that happened you would be in serious trouble, and a positive test would be the least of your troubles!

Again, no need to convince me that doping is rampant, just trying to get my head around how it would all work day to day during a major event.

These are some pretty good questions....

First point - with the number of people at the TdF (or any race for that matter) it would be incredibly easy to get doping products into a riders hotel room. The equipment needed for transfusion is almost nothing, and could easily fit into a very small bag. I think the only way that a rider would ever get caught in the act is with hidden cameras. With a locked door, a keyhole to see who is knocking and the ease in removing an IV line, there is no way that a rider would be caught in the act unless it was videotaped.

Second point - It depends on what blood type they are. If I remember correctly (correct me if I am wrong Elapid or Dr Mas or someone else), predominant blood types vary with race, and most caucasions are O+ or A+. If Hamilton and Vino are both A+ then the odds are that if the wrong blood was transfused by accident it would still be compatible.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Yes the more we think about this the more unlikely it seems. The idea that they could go through dozens of hotels and nobody working for the hotel would tip off the media or police about which individuals were going in and out of the rooms - which would be quite easy through the security cameras and witnesses - or that someone in the supply chain wouldn't sell their story, is very slim.

I don't think people have thought it through before. They just lap up these rumours without asking why nobody has seen it first hand. We can safely say that at best its very rare and only a few teams would engage in it. There is no way on earth that dozens of teams could have blood bags running all over Europe without there being many more slip ups than there has been. It's just not credibile.

Plenty of people have come forward (many reluctantly with nothing to gain and everything to lose) and discussed how this sort of thing goes on. It is always simple, clever and pretty unsurprising.

People like you then don't believe it.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

No, I haven't seen people in the supply chain coming forward on the blood doping issue, as there would be if this practise was rife. People have been far too gullible about the rumours.

IM conversation between Andreu and Vaughers mentions the infamous motorbikes with fridge panniers and LA and The Hog flushing Floyd's blood down the toilet as a punishment for wanting to leave.

Emma O'Reilly also mentioned Lance liking it if hotel rooms had pictures where they could use the hooks to hang bllod transfusion equipment.

There are also reports of Vino going into an unmarked van in the start village for his transfusion - and this was rumbled by the authorities who waited for him and then targeted him for a blood test.

What about T-Mobile simply all driving to a clinic in Freiburg one evening for blood transfusions? How difficult would this be. Someone drives them there in a car. The driver need not even know why they are going. Only the riders and the doctors would know.

Why don't you think more?

 

[blackcat]

IM conversation between Andreu and Vaughers mentions the infamous motorbikes with fridge panniers and LA and The Hog flushing Floyd's blood down the toilet as a punishment for wanting to leave.

Emma O'Reilly also mentioned Lance liking it if hotel rooms had pictures where they could use the hooks to hang bllod transfusion equipment.

There are also reports of Vino going into an unmarked van in the start village for his transfusion - and this was rumbled by the authorities who waited for him and then targeted him for a blood test.

What about T-Mobile simply all driving to a clinic in Freiburg one evening for blood transfusions? How difficult would this be. Someone drives them there in a car. The driver need not even know why they are going. Only the riders and the doctors would know.

Why don't you think more?

you are too gullible Mongol

 

[poupou]

Yes the more we think about this the more unlikely it seems. The idea that they could go through dozens of hotels and nobody working for the hotel would tip off the media or police about which individuals were going in and out of the rooms - which would be quite easy through the security cameras and witnesses - or that someone in the supply chain wouldn't sell their story, is very slim.

I don't think people have thought it through before. They just lap up these rumours without asking why nobody has seen it first hand. We can safely say that at best its very rare and only a few teams would engage in it. There is no way on earth that dozens of teams could have blood bags running all over Europe without there being many more slip ups than there has been. It's just not credibile.

Probably you are living in a country where every hotel employee can stop and search every individual !

Are you from North Korea?

We have just Manzano who confessed that doped riders used around 15-20 needles by day, and 160 needles and transfusions equipments were found in US POSTAL garbages! How could it be with all those housekeepers?

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

you are too gullible Mongol

yes - because Lance never failed a test (or never got sanctioned for failing one) all of these accounts are just libellous nonsense that only the gullible believe.

 

[blackcat]

BPC should go to a different forum, most are well versed here, on the practice of the peloton.

gullible is a neat canard BPC

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Sorry - I forgot that anything that makes Lance look bad is an unfounded rumour.

All pro teams have numerous buses, coaches, vans etc.

I have even been in an amateur team bus that had fridges and even washing machines in there.

How hard would it be to have 3 x blood bags per rider stored in the fridges and have the riders either administered the blood in the bus, or have the stuff sneaked into the hotels with all the other legal medications and equipment? Or rent an apartment on the other side of town and have the riders take an evening stroll over that way, or ride by on a rest day? It's so easy to do with only a handful of loyal people knowing about yet you seem to imply that armies of blood bag carrying staff would be required to drive blood trucks all the place with hotel staff looking on taking notes for the police.

In any case - do you think the average chambermaid really knows what is going on and even cares?

 

[Hugh Januss]

Just a not very impressive argument for the previous reasons stated. All of the team buses and other hangers on get searched regularly. Far more would have been busted by now if it was going on that much.

I think it was brave of the original poster to use some logic and bring this up. I'm sure many thinking people have long smelt a rat about this but didn't want to sound uncool.

Just curious if you know for a fact that "all of the team buses and other hangers on get searched regularly." Have you seen this happen? Who does the searching? Are French police allowed to pull over and ransack any vehicle that they want? Or do they have to have some sort of proof that a crime may be being commited?
I ask these questions because I am not an expert on French law, nor do I follow pro cycling close enough to know what goes on behind the scenes in the team buses, and since you seem to have so much knowledge of both I want to learn.

 

[Cobber]

Just a not very impressive argument for the previous reasons stated. All of the team buses and other hangers on get searched regularly. Far more would have been busted by now if it was going on that much.

I think it was brave of the original poster to use some logic and bring this up. I'm sure many thinking people have long smelt a rat about this but didn't want to sound uncool.

I think the other reason that would make this unlikely is that while doping may often be team-wide, it is not done in front of other members of the team. Therefore, storing drugs and blood bags in the team bus would most likely never happen. Not to mention the extremely bad PR for the sponsors if a team bus was searched and it looked like a pharmaceutical dispensary.

Storage of doping products most likely occurs "off site" with riders' samples coded to prevent any identification back to the riders/teams, as we saw in the Operacion Puerto samples.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Yes these types of searches go on periodically. Usually they're quite discreet so we don't hear much about them in order not to smear anybody.

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/346466/schlecks-father-s-car-searched.html

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/sc/news?...rance_astana-214448629&prov=capress&type=lgns

Somebodys dad and a "team truck, not the riders bus" in the past two years doesn't quite add up to "all of the team buses and other hangers on get searched regularly".
Do you have other examples or do you just know it?

 

[Hugh Januss]

Pssst, it was the Schleck dad and one of team Astana's trucks. You didn't ask for a link for every single incident.

Yes this type of thing happens regularly. You don't often hear much about it because the authorities are quite descreet and don't want to smear anyone. But as you can see, a huge blood doping programme across all the teams is pretty unlikely, for this reason and the others stated. Too much factors could go wrong.

So you just know it then, huh?

 

[poupou]

Don't be silly. You know as well as I do that of the dozens of hotels they stay at during the tour, with all the controversy surrounding the teams, the security and staff would have leaked out which motor cycle courier was delivering stuff to what rooms by now, and the press would have been onto this in a flash. These hotel people are on low wages - the press could pay them off in a heart beat. That's what happens in free countries.

You know that Lance has more money than press so he could pay them more to say nothing, he can even loan their fridges to store his own refuelling bags!

That is pure logic! Who can pay the more get the best treatment!

 

[HelmutRoole]

The point is, we can all agree that if blood bags were running around the place...

Point is, we can all agree that Ullich, Basso, et al were dropping large quantities of blood (and coin) with Dr. Fuentes and doing so with the intentions of using it later. Not with the intentions of not using it later.

I haven't gone through the OP report, but if memory serves me, there were dozens of cyclists and their handlers implicated and many gallons of blood stored in Fuentes' office along with plenty of other goodies like HGH, IGF-1, test, steroids, EPO...

One would have to be an idiot to believe they would have gone to the trouble, risk and expense to drop off blood with a renowned doping doctor without any methods of delivery.

 

[Hugh Januss]

So you didn't know it, huh? Methinks you are a little embarrassed and hiding behind this "well he didn't provide a link for every single incident in the history of cycling - what a bum" facade.

Methinks there is one source for all of the facts that you cite and that is your own fertile imagination.

 

[HelmutRoole]

But how often does it happen? It's such a clumsy way of doping that it seems unlikely. Those that do get caught are no doubt caught because of this fact, and are not the tip of the iceberg. It's just naive to think it's widespread in the major tours.

So you're saying the 50-plus Fuentes clients who were cyclists stored their blood for the smaller races, say a provincial championship or their hometown crit?

I mean, is that really what you think?

House?

 

[East Sycamore]

Point is, we can all agree that Ullich, Basso, et al were dropping large quantities of blood (and coin) with Dr. Fuentes and doing so with the intentions of using it later. Not with the intentions of not using it later.

I haven't gone through the OP report, but if memory serves me, there were dozens of cyclists and their handlers implicated and many gallons of blood stored in Fuentes' office along with plenty of other goodies like HGH, IGF-1, test, steroids, EPO...

One would have to be an idiot to believe they would have gone to the trouble, risk and expense to drop off blood with a renowned doping doctor without any methods of delivery.

This is all obviously true - my original question was more how do they actually do a transfusion during a major tour? I would guess that David Walsh and everyone else is on the lookout for motorcycles with refrigerated panniers, so what is being used now? Dr. Ferrari and others must be hired for their logistical expertise along with their medical knowledge. It doesn't seem to me to be a simple thing to transport as much blood as would be required to keep the pro peleton going and not have somebody trip up or get caught.

Maybe the idea of sequestering the riders like Kirin racers is the way to go - it would certainly erase a lot of the doubts that may be out there.