Looking forward -The proactive change of cyclings culture thread

[ray j willings]

Re:

I'm sorry you love cheating and dopers.

No one is saying they love dopers ....but some of us live in the real world when it comes to how sport works.
Your ideology about doping does not work. You want a clean sport= that will never happen.
The arguments I make and others " who made the point much better , but then again they weren't called weak"
are based on the history and culture of sport. You seem to have this unrealistic vision of sport. Its never been that way. To try and slander me call me weak is actually your issue and your denial of what sport really his at the highest level and even lower.
I apologise to all for coming across a bit aggressive but I have facts on my side you have wishful thinking or just plain ignorance and I know your not that stupid.
Its not nice when the truth is laid out in front of you but you have to realise what sport is and at least IMO get some kind of control and make it a fairer playing field for everyone. I never said it would be perfect but at least it would be more honest and sporting bodys can stop flushing the money down the toilet trying to pretend they have a handle on things .......
and another point ...If I was a pro athlete and I just had to Micro dose ,take a few PED's to win and get me some serious money.
Set me up for life and my family ,I would do it without batting a eye.
No offence but That's the real world and if I did not take my place in the peloton or line up in the Olympics there will be hundreds who would step in and fill that place.

Who would I have hurt. Look at Zidane world cup winner, in-fact has won everything at the highest level of football and was doping and yet everybody still loves him no matter what. Its about perception. Morals went out when big money came in. BIG MONEY.

Cheers.

 

[the delgados]

Re: Re:

I would respectfully like to take issue with someone who claimed another was weak for "compromising morals for practicality."
As has been mentioned, there are no morals in sport and there never have been.
The Tour de France was created by a sadist who simply wanted to make money. The original idea was to create a race so difficult that the winner would be the only person who finished the race. He was there to generate money, not create some morality play.
Over the years, tons of poor people desperate to make a buck entered to win. Of course they were going to cheat when the rules were made by some egomaniac who liked to see others suffer for his benefit.
Sport is an always has been a spectacle; and as long as there's money to be made, doping is part of the spectacle.

That is one side of cycle sport, but there are many other sides. And some that actually people find enriching rather than just simple cheap entertainment. And that's what is worth protecting. Kids emulate their heros and that is one very good reason to me to fight against those who break the rules and thus against doping in sport.

Cycling changed my life for the better. I find it enriching on a personal level, and highly entertaining on a professional level, irony included.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

You're weak because you're compromising your morals for practicality. You're weak because you're letting other people's behavior sway your definition of right and wrong.

I take it that to you, what is wrong and immoral about doping is not that it contravenes the rules, but something else? What would that be?

In short, no. I don't want to watch a doping competition. A little harder to define specifically, but I want to watch a competition of the best combination of talent, tactics, and fitness/training/practice. That doping blurs who is actually the best at those things, makes it much harder to enjoy an athletic competition much harder to enjoy.

More importantly, it makes it much harder to be a competitor. I am much less interested in measuring my dope-response against someone else's dope-response. I do however, want to see if I put together and implemented a better training plan/race strategy than the other guy.

I am not a philosopher, and won't go down a road of trying to find the roots of my morality.

And for me, FWIW, the mental aspect, the gamesmanship, the ability to outfox someone, or out mental toughness them, the mind-over-matter (or pain) is as much the competition, as it is the physical characteristics that come from our genetics and training.

I was wrestling one day and my opponent was younger and physically stronger. We were equally fit. The only difference was each time he beat me, I got ready to go again. Over and over until he capitulated. He gave up and I continued to act like I was ready to go again.

Failing is not so much falling over, as not getting up again.

And in this instance, doping testing and all that jazz, sure it keeps failing. But only the weak decide, one day, after one more failure: enough is enough. I quit. I give up.

The strong continue. Get up again. Go again. Keep going until they succeed.

The Wright brothers did not fly successfully the first time they tried.
Heck, none of us walked the first time we tried.

Does that mean you give up?

Not for me it doesn't.

ETA: and for all those "reality" bleaters (ie what sheep do) - reality is what you make it, more so than what you observe. To capitulate to alleged "human nature" claims is more undisciplined weakness derived from an instant gratification mentality that quite frankly is repulsive.

HTFU. (Profanity warning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y)

 

[ray j willings]

:Wiggo ,,, did you know the Wright Brothers were taking PED''s.

"We shall never give up .We shall keep on fighting even though we cant win because we have morals"

"We can achieve, we can defeat younger men at wrestling "

The best post ever Wiggo, In-fact your post has made me change my view on life and I am going to continue with my research in to human levitation and its effects on the Duck population

Brilliant.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

I would respectfully like to take issue with someone who claimed another was weak for "compromising morals for practicality."
As has been mentioned, there are no morals in sport and there never have been.
The Tour de France was created by a sadist who simply wanted to make money. The original idea was to create a race so difficult that the winner would be the only person who finished the race. He was there to generate money, not create some morality play.
Over the years, tons of poor people desperate to make a buck entered to win. Of course they were going to cheat when the rules were made by some egomaniac who liked to see others suffer for his benefit.
Sport is an always has been a spectacle; and as long as there's money to be made, doping is part of the spectacle.

Sport is a spectacle to the fans. Many have doped when there was nothing to be gained but a name on an A4 sheet of paper and not a cent in sight.

The TdF was created a long time ago and the sport has evolved in case you haven't noticed. Bikes have gears now! Some are made out of plastic, amazing.

But the modern sport of cycling does have a rule book and doping is against the rules.

 

[Benotti69]

The idea that people only dope for money is laughable. Heck people have always cheated. Plenty of cheats competed in Olympics for a small piece of metal and no money for their troubles.

 

[the delgados]

Benotti69: cycling had a rule book since it's inception, one that excluded the use of any form of doping products or train-jumping or whatever.
I guess what I'm trying to ask you is how anything has changed since the days when riders were jumping on trains mid-way through a 600 km stage.
I get the "marginal change' aspect, but my question is what do you think makes this sport run? I don't think morals has anything to do with it.

 

[Tonton]

Re:

Benotti69: cycling had a rule book since it's inception, one that excluded the use of any form of doping products or train-jumping or whatever.
I guess what I'm trying to ask you is how anything has changed since the days when riders were jumping on trains mid-way through a 600 km stage.
I get the "marginal change' aspect, but my question is what do you think makes this sport run? I don't think morals has anything to do with it.

What makes this sport run? Part of it is a tradition: kids used to go (and some still go) to school riding a bike. For blue collar families a few decades ago, parents would ride a bike to work. Kids would race against other kids, parents would race to be at work on time. What makes this sport run is its simplicity, its inclusive nature, its place in our lives. Riding a bike. I taught two kids how to ride a bike. Like other parents, centuries ago, would have taught their children how to ride a horse.
People have always tried to cheat, at anything, not just sports. Unfortunately, world politics, the panem et circences agenda of struggling countries, and money got us where we are.
Protecting the brand and the cash flow is why no one really wants to do anything. We can either agree to be fed BS, believe what we see, or question it. We can spread the message that cheating is wrong, that doping is cheating, that doping is wrong.
I am amazed at some comments and rhetoric in this forum. People who are obviously only involved in cycling through their computer and their TV. People who forgot what riding a bike is. How good it feels to make it to the top of a nasty climb or racing a car. There's a major difference between "me vs. the hill" and "me and dope vs. the hill". I think all the dopers have that nostalgia in them: the feeling of personal achievement that goes away when cheating.
So it comes down to how help riders make the right choice. Carrot, stick, whatever.
To Ray: you never cease to amaze me...

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

Benotti69: cycling had a rule book since it's inception, one that excluded the use of any form of doping products or train-jumping or whatever.
I guess what I'm trying to ask you is how anything has changed since the days when riders were jumping on trains mid-way through a 600 km stage.
I get the "marginal change' aspect, but my question is what do you think makes this sport run? I don't think morals has anything to do with it.

What makes this sport run? Part of it is a tradition: kids used to go (and some still go) to school riding a bike. For blue collar families a few decades ago, parents would ride a bike to work. Kids would race against other kids, parents would race to be at work on time. What makes this sport run is its simplicity, its inclusive nature, its place in our lives. Riding a bike. I taught two kids how to ride a bike. Like other parents, centuries ago, would have taught their children how to ride a horse.
People have always tried to cheat, at anything, not just sports. Unfortunately, world politics, the panem et circences agenda of struggling countries, and money got us where we are.
Protecting the brand and the cash flow is why no one really wants to do anything. We can either agree to be fed BS, believe what we see, or question it. We can spread the message that cheating is wrong, that doping is cheating, that doping is wrong.
I am amazed at some comments and rhetoric in this forum. People who are obviously only involved in cycling through their computer and their TV. People who forgot what riding a bike is. How good it feels to make it to the top of a nasty climb or racing a car. There's a major difference between "me vs. the hill" and "me and dope vs. the hill". I think all the dopers have that nostalgia in them: the feeling of personal achievement that goes away when cheating.
So it comes down to how help riders make the right choice. Carrot, stick, whatever.
To Ray: you never cease to amaze me...

Just for the record I ride/train on my bike at least 4 times a week. I also lift weights 3 times a week. I don't sit around much.
I have 2 sons we ride our bikes over the park and have fun, that has Fu%k all to do with professional sport.
That's some dreamy ideal vision that's far away from the reality of a athlete trying to compete with the best in the world.
Would I be proud if my son won a gold medal at the Olympics yes. If had to dope Yes. Why not. How else is going to win that gold ,,fairy dust.

You can spread the message all day and all night but athletes will look for ways to be better legal or not. They always have. From the get go

If we could truly have a high level sport based on talent and hard work no PED'S then great lets have it.
Athletes are driven obsessed people who strive to be stronger /faster and they work hard.
You may not like Armstrong or Pantani but they were still busting their as$ every day

I have climbed a lot of the major climbs in france and when I get to the top " I want to know how fast I was" That's me. I can look at the view later. I don't think great ride, I think how can I go faster next time.

You say it comes down to helping riders come to the right choice but you want them to come to your choice.
They athletes want to win and history shows they opt to find gains anywhere they can. they always have.
So lets stop kidding ourselves that they train on pasta and a massage.
Your seem to have a real lack of understanding of how a top athletes mind works, they look for every margin of gain they can get.
My view is of a realist. Sport is not war, its not poverty it's not a cure for cancer. its a money making machine with hero's and villain's. Look at Footballers, Most of them are now all about the money. How many footballers have stayed with the same team .....not many. Ker-ching.
We have parents obsessed with getting their kids into pro sports ,,,,money.
You may be amazed by my view but at least its honest and a view based on the reality of the world we live in.
That does not make me a bad person or have bad moral's. Its just a view based on reality.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

[quote="ray j willings

Just for the record I ride/train on my bike at least 4 times a week. I also lift weights 3 times a week. I don't sit around much.
I have 2 sons we ride our bikes over the park and have fun, that has Fu%k all to do with professional sport.
That's some dreamy ideal vision that's far away from the reality of a athlete trying to compete with the best in the world.
Would I be proud if my son won a gold medal at the Olympics yes. If had to dope Yes. Why not. How else is going to win that gold ,,fairy dust.

You can spread the message all day and all night but athletes will look for ways to be better legal or not. They always have. From the get go

If we could truly have a high level sport based on talent and hard work no PED'S then great lets have it.
Athletes are driven obsessed people who strive to be stronger /faster and they work hard.
You may not like Armstrong or Pantani but they were still busting their as$ every day

I have climbed a lot of the major climbs in france and when I get to the top " I want to know how fast I was" That's me. I can look at the view later. I don't think great ride, I think how can I go faster next time.

You say it comes down to helping riders come to the right choice but you want them to come to your choice.
They athletes want to win and history shows they opt to find gains anywhere they can. they always have.
So lets stop kidding ourselves that they train on pasta and a massage.
Your seem to have a real lack of understanding of how a top athletes mind works, they look for every margin of gain they can get.
My view is of a realist. Sport is not war, its not poverty it's not a cure for cancer. its a money making machine with hero's and villain's. Look at Footballers, Most of them are now all about the money. How many footballers have stayed with the same team .....not many. Ker-ching.
We have parents obsessed with getting their kids into pro sports ,,,,money.
You may be amazed by my view but at least its honest and a view based on the reality of the world we live in.
That does not make me a bad person or have bad moral's. Its just a view based on reality.[/quote]


I'm amazed, that's an understatement. That doesn't make you a bad person, but if you are OK with doping/cheating, how do you call it: good morals? And yes, it comes down to helping the riders make the right choice. Not my choice as you put it. It's about doing the right thing. I agree that all sports are becoming more about the money, less about the values that Pierre de Coubertin promoted when he resurrected the Olympic Games. Things have changed for the worse, it may be what you call "the reality of the world", but it doesn't have to stay that way. That's what sports have become, not what they have always been. Although as I wrote, there have been cheaters since the day contests were created and rules established. The difference is that cheating was not tolerated then as it is today.

 

[ray j willings]

Tonton ,I do understand the point your making. But how are you going to stop an athlete from looking for that extra bit of performance. Lets be honest doping is pretty much the norm in sports ,all sports. look at what was going on with the East Germans , China etc. Sport at that level is like a huge science experiment. Now look at humans and they way we are manipulating genes. What do you think is going to happen or perhaps is already starting to happen. Look how sport his used and has been used as a tool in politics. Country's want to win. They invest vast sums to win. They grab the talent as early as possible. One of my sons friends "12 years old" is off to Valencia for trials , if they sign him he will make some serious money and treated like a king ,12 years old. He's a great lad by the way, obsessed with football.
You and I watch a football match watch a athletics race watch the tour de france , how many of those athletes are clean.
The vision you have of athletes just running or jumping etc on a good diet and good training has never really existed.
Just say for instance that tomorrow some scientist comes up with a test so that no athletes could
cheat and everyone is going to be tested. You wouldn't have much sport left. The athletes would have to retire on mass or all confess, Then someone somewhere would find a new way to beat the test and we would be back to "normal sport resumed " Because that's human nature. That's why we have stupid wars.
That's why I say at least control it make it safe and at least we are not kidding ourselves about the performances we are watching. How many times have you heard a commentator say " that's unbelievable "

 

[Tonton]

Re:

Tonton ,I do understand the point your making. But how are you going to stop an athlete from looking for that extra bit of performance. Lets be honest doping is pretty much the norm in sports ,all sports. look at what was going on with the East Germans , China etc. Sport at that level is like a huge science experiment. Now look at humans and they way we are manipulating genes. What do you think is going to happen or perhaps is already starting to happen. Look how sport his used and has been used as a tool in politics. Country's want to win. They invest vast sums to win. They grab the talent as early as possible. One of my sons friends "12 years old" is off to Valencia for trials , if they sign him he will make some serious money and treated like a king ,12 years old. He's a great lad by the way, obsessed with football.
You and I watch a football match watch a athletics race watch the tour de france , how many of those athletes are clean.
The vision you have of athletes just running or jumping etc on a good diet and good training has never really existed.
Just say for instance that tomorrow some scientist comes up with a test so that no athletes could
cheat and everyone is going to be tested. You wouldn't have much sport left. The athletes would have to retire on mass or all confess, Then someone somewhere would find a new way to beat the test and we would be back to "normal sport resumed " Because that's human nature. That's why we have stupid wars.
That's why I say at least control it make it safe and at least we are not kidding ourselves about the performances we are watching. How many times have you heard a commentator say " that's unbelievable "

And I see your point too: we live in an age when half the people in modern countries dope. Pain killers, sleeping pills, the feel-good Zolofts and co, and of course Viagra, the pill that makes the average guy climb on his partner like Bjarne on Hautacam,..so it's not surprising that pharmaceutical advances also find their way in athletics.

Having said that, since the likes of us have freedom of speech, the more noise we make, the more likely we are to be heard. The powers in sports have decided that doping is bad for the PR, and found easier to ignore the problem instead of addressing it. It's up to us, big or small to call them out, hold them accountable, call the king "naked". Our silence is like signing a blank check to the crooks who run cycling.

Agree with me that a sport like cycling could be marketed as the beacon of health and fitness: its champions considered as the best, healthiest athletes in the world. This would boost bike sales, increase exposure, bring money/sponsors...not the other way around, like turning cycling into a freak show.

 

[ray j willings]

"Agree with me that a sport like cycling could be marketed as the beacon of health and fitness: its champions considered as the best, healthiest athletes in the world. This would boost bike sales, increase exposure, bring money/sponsors...not the other way around, like turning cycling into a freak show"

Agreed. I like the points you make and in the end we all want to be in a better place.

Cheers

 

[the delgados]

Re:

"Agree with me that a sport like cycling could be marketed as the beacon of health and fitness: its champions considered as the best, healthiest athletes in the world. This would boost bike sales, increase exposure, bring money/sponsors...not the other way around, like turning cycling into a freak show"

Agreed. I like the points you make and in the end we all want to be in a better place.

Cheers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSj9D5mWFqg&index=3&list=PLHNPsrHtxoqniRNSbg44gEjUGj4-Sn9MK

Bodybreak!

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSj9D5mWFqg&index=3&list=PLHNPsrHtxoqniRNSbg44gEjUGj4-Sn9MK

Bodybreak!

Mark Spitz brah!

I knew that the marginal gains of Sky and Kerrison were gonna pay off, if Mark Spitz is for cycling, then cycling rules, and swimming training can only be positive for cycling. LRP knows this sheeit, that is why they get the cyclists from a landlocked country who learned to swim at three years old. its the marginal gains

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

"Agree with me that a sport like cycling could be marketed as the beacon of health and fitness: its champions considered as the best, healthiest athletes in the world. This would boost bike sales, increase exposure, bring money/sponsors...not the other way around, like turning cycling into a freak show"

Agreed. I like the points you make and in the end we all want to be in a better place.

Cheers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSj9D5mWFqg&index=3&list=PLHNPsrHtxoqniRNSbg44gEjUGj4-Sn9MK

Bodybreak!

Come on . I was being nice.
and like Tonton posted,,, sport could be marketed that way. It could be marketed anyway the powers that be want to market it. So you can't disagree with that statement.
We made our points lets move on....

 

[the delgados]

Re: Re:

"Agree with me that a sport like cycling could be marketed as the beacon of health and fitness: its champions considered as the best, healthiest athletes in the world. This would boost bike sales, increase exposure, bring money/sponsors...not the other way around, like turning cycling into a freak show"

Agreed. I like the points you make and in the end we all want to be in a better place.

Cheers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSj9D5mWFqg&index=3&list=PLHNPsrHtxoqniRNSbg44gEjUGj4-Sn9MK

Bodybreak!

Come on . I was being nice.
and like Tonton posted,,, sport could be marketed that way. It could be marketed anyway the powers that be want to market it. So you can't disagree with that statement.
We made our points lets move on....

Sorry, I was just being cheeky.
I appreciate the points you and others have made in this thread.

 

[the delgados]

Re: Re:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bSj9D5mWFqg&index=3&list=PLHNPsrHtxoqniRNSbg44gEjUGj4-Sn9MK

Bodybreak!

Mark Spitz brah!

I knew that the marginal gains of Sky and Kerrison were gonna pay off, if Mark Spitz is for cycling, then cycling rules, and swimming training can only be positive for cycling. LRP knows this sheeit, that is why they get the cyclists from a landlocked country who learned to swim at three years old. its the marginal gains

LRP was the first to focus on tricep training, now everyone is doing it--LRP

 

[Dear Wiggo]

That video is so full of wrongness.

 

[More Strides than Rides]

Re: Re:

And for me, FWIW, the mental aspect, the gamesmanship, the ability to outfox someone, or out mental toughness them, the mind-over-matter (or pain) is as much the competition, as it is the physical characteristics that come from our genetics and training.

I was wrestling one day and my opponent was younger and physically stronger. We were equally fit. The only difference was each time he beat me, I got ready to go again. Over and over until he capitulated. He gave up and I continued to act like I was ready to go again.

Failing is not so much falling over, as not getting up again.

And in this instance, doping testing and all that jazz, sure it keeps failing. But only the weak decide, one day, after one more failure: enough is enough. I quit. I give up.

The strong continue. Get up again. Go again. Keep going until they succeed.

The Wright brothers did not fly successfully the first time they tried.
Heck, none of us walked the first time we tried.

Does that mean you give up?

Not for me it doesn't.

ETA: and for all those "reality" bleaters (ie what sheep do) - reality is what you make it, more so than what you observe. To capitulate to alleged "human nature" claims is more undisciplined weakness derived from an instant gratification mentality that quite frankly is repulsive.

HTFU. (Profanity warning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unkIVvjZc9Y)

I was expecting something about how doping forces other athletes to take health risks they don't want to take (despite doping being reasonably safe , and despite that reasoning also applying, to a greater degree even, to aspects of cycling that are tolerated, like descending), which would at least constitute an argument as to why it's immoral, if not a successful one. You haven't give any reason why you consider it immoral, you've stated a preference. All you've done is explained that you don't like it. Confusing dislike with an argument that demonstrates something is immoral is a common mistake. Learned that in one of the many philosophy classes I took.

Fwiw, I share your preference. If we could write the rules of the sport, we would then make it against the rules. That would make it immoral.

Right. Both good points that I didn't include in my quick reply. As a competitor, I want to be able to out-savvy the other guy, and know it's possible, instead of being so far behind physically because of doping that it is irrelevant. Similarly, Sport is already incredibly unhealthy (the goal of training is to instigate damage on a regular basis), I wouldn't want to poison my body just to access a competition.

And to your point SeriousSam, the immorality is the fraud; cheating someone out of their livelihood by breaking explicit rules. Even if it is amateur competition, the immorality comes from the cheater robbing the esteem and accomplishment from their competitors who follow the rules.

 

[ray j willings]

How can it be cheating when everyone is doing it?

People drink , it's legal in the UK etc although its not legal in some country's so how does that work morally ?

People take drugs that are legal in country's and illegal in others ,,,same question.

Say some country's decide that athletes can take EPO legally how would that stand ?

 

[More Strides than Rides]

This post was made by ray j willings who is currently on your ignore list. Display this post.

...

 

[Dear Wiggo]

They really dislike it when we call people out as trolls.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

Re: Re:

Benotti69: cycling had a rule book since it's inception, one that excluded the use of any form of doping products or train-jumping or whatever.
I guess what I'm trying to ask you is how anything has changed since the days when riders were jumping on trains mid-way through a 600 km stage.
I get the "marginal change' aspect, but my question is what do you think makes this sport run? I don't think morals has anything to do with it.

What makes this sport run? Part of it is a tradition: kids used to go (and some still go) to school riding a bike. For blue collar families a few decades ago, parents would ride a bike to work. Kids would race against other kids, parents would race to be at work on time. What makes this sport run is its simplicity, its inclusive nature, its place in our lives. Riding a bike. I taught two kids how to ride a bike. Like other parents, centuries ago, would have taught their children how to ride a horse.
People have always tried to cheat, at anything, not just sports. Unfortunately, world politics, the panem et circences agenda of struggling countries, and money got us where we are.
Protecting the brand and the cash flow is why no one really wants to do anything. We can either agree to be fed BS, believe what we see, or question it. We can spread the message that cheating is wrong, that doping is cheating, that doping is wrong.
I am amazed at some comments and rhetoric in this forum. People who are obviously only involved in cycling through their computer and their TV. People who forgot what riding a bike is. How good it feels to make it to the top of a nasty climb or racing a car. There's a major difference between "me vs. the hill" and "me and dope vs. the hill". I think all the dopers have that nostalgia in them: the feeling of personal achievement that goes away when cheating.
So it comes down to how help riders make the right choice. Carrot, stick, whatever.
To Ray: you never cease to amaze me...

Just for the record I ride/train on my bike at least 4 times a week. I also lift weights 3 times a week. I don't sit around much.
I have 2 sons we ride our bikes over the park and have fun, that has Fu%k all to do with professional sport.
That's some dreamy ideal vision that's far away from the reality of a athlete trying to compete with the best in the world.
Would I be proud if my son won a gold medal at the Olympics yes. If had to dope Yes. Why not. How else is going to win that gold ,,fairy dust.

You can spread the message all day and all night but athletes will look for ways to be better legal or not. They always have. From the get go

If we could truly have a high level sport based on talent and hard work no PED'S then great lets have it.
Athletes are driven obsessed people who strive to be stronger /faster and they work hard.
You may not like Armstrong or Pantani but they were still busting their as$ every day

I have climbed a lot of the major climbs in france and when I get to the top " I want to know how fast I was" That's me. I can look at the view later. I don't think great ride, I think how can I go faster next time.

You say it comes down to helping riders come to the right choice but you want them to come to your choice.
They athletes want to win and history shows they opt to find gains anywhere they can. they always have.
So lets stop kidding ourselves that they train on pasta and a massage.
Your seem to have a real lack of understanding of how a top athletes mind works, they look for every margin of gain they can get.
My view is of a realist. Sport is not war, its not poverty it's not a cure for cancer. its a money making machine with hero's and villain's. Look at Footballers, Most of them are now all about the money. How many footballers have stayed with the same team .....not many. Ker-ching.
We have parents obsessed with getting their kids into pro sports ,,,,money.
You may be amazed by my view but at least its honest and a view based on the reality of the world we live in.
That does not make me a bad person or have bad moral's. Its just a view based on reality.

I think that the bolded is really the measure. Are you a person who will teach your children that how they achieve their goals is irrelevant, it is achieving the goal that is most important; or, are you the type of parent that teaches your children that setting a goal is very important, but the journey to that goal is as important as achievement of that goal. Integrity is born of the latter, and superfluous to the former.

Here, if you haven't gotten your children to read this book yet, please do so post haste: http://www.amazon.com/Atlas-Shrugged-Ayn-Rand/dp/0452011876/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1433694258&sr=8-1&keywords=atlas+shrugged

 

[ray j willings]

Re: Re:

Benotti69: cycling had a rule book since it's inception, one that excluded the use of any form of doping products or train-jumping or whatever.
I guess what I'm trying to ask you is how anything has changed since the days when riders were jumping on trains mid-way through a 600 km stage.
I get the "marginal change' aspect, but my question is what do you think makes this sport run? I don't think morals has anything to do with it.

What makes this sport run? Part of it is a tradition: kids used to go (and some still go) to school riding a bike. For blue collar families a few decades ago, parents would ride a bike to work. Kids would race against other kids, parents would race to be at work on time. What makes this sport run is its simplicity, its inclusive nature, its place in our lives. Riding a bike. I taught two kids how to ride a bike. Like other parents, centuries ago, would have taught their children how to ride a horse.
People have always tried to cheat, at anything, not just sports. Unfortunately, world politics, the panem et circences agenda of struggling countries, and money got us where we are.
Protecting the brand and the cash flow is why no one really wants to do anything. We can either agree to be fed BS, believe what we see, or question it. We can spread the message that cheating is wrong, that doping is cheating, that doping is wrong.
I am amazed at some comments and rhetoric in this forum. People who are obviously only involved in cycling through their computer and their TV. People who forgot what riding a bike is. How good it feels to make it to the top of a nasty climb or racing a car. There's a major difference between "me vs. the hill" and "me and dope vs. the hill". I think all the dopers have that nostalgia in them: the feeling of personal achievement that goes away when cheating.
So it comes down to how help riders make the right choice. Carrot, stick, whatever.
To Ray: you never cease to amaze me...

Just for the record I ride/train on my bike at least 4 times a week. I also lift weights 3 times a week. I don't sit around much.
I have 2 sons we ride our bikes over the park and have fun, that has Fu%k all to do with professional sport.
That's some dreamy ideal vision that's far away from the reality of a athlete trying to compete with the best in the world.
Would I be proud if my son won a gold medal at the Olympics yes. If had to dope Yes. Why not. How else is going to win that gold ,,fairy dust.

You can spread the message all day and all night but athletes will look for ways to be better legal or not. They always have. From the get go

If we could truly have a high level sport based on talent and hard work no PED'S then great lets have it.
Athletes are driven obsessed people who strive to be stronger /faster and they work hard.
You may not like Armstrong or Pantani but they were still busting their as$ every day

I have climbed a lot of the major climbs in france and when I get to the top " I want to know how fast I was" That's me. I can look at the view later. I don't think great ride, I think how can I go faster next time.

You say it comes down to helping riders come to the right choice but you want them to come to your choice.
They athletes want to win and history shows they opt to find gains anywhere they can. they always have.
So lets stop kidding ourselves that they train on pasta and a massage.
Your seem to have a real lack of understanding of how a top athletes mind works, they look for every margin of gain they can get.
My view is of a realist. Sport is not war, its not poverty it's not a cure for cancer. its a money making machine with hero's and villain's. Look at Footballers, Most of them are now all about the money. How many footballers have stayed with the same team .....not many. Ker-ching.
We have parents obsessed with getting their kids into pro sports ,,,,money.
You may be amazed by my view but at least its honest and a view based on the reality of the world we live in.
That does not make me a bad person or have bad moral's. Its just a view based on reality.

I think that the bolded is really the measure. Are you a person who will teach your children that how they achieve their goals is irrelevant, it is achieving the goal that is most important; or, are you the type of parent that teaches your children that setting a goal is very important, but the journey to that goal is as important as achievement of that goal. Integrity is born of the latter, and superfluous to the former.

Here, if you haven't gotten your children to read this book yet, please do so post haste: http://www.amazon.com/Atlas-Shrugged-Ayn-Rand/dp/0452011876/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1433694258&sr=8-1&keywords=atlas+shrugged

Let me ask you this. All those athletes that win a gold medal and get honoured and thank their parents.
Now do those parents know they have doped or have they been lying to their parents?
or do you think all those gold medals and championship wins or tour de france wins are won on pasta?
Can you answer that question without being a hypocrite?