Teams & Riders Mark Cavendish Discussion Thread

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And that's what I'm saying. Cavendish would have still been dominant against Greipel and Kittel if they were on other teams in his dominant era.
Just like his team refused that year, the race organizers started refusing inviting Cipo because of his antics. If you don't make him Italian, suddenly he has far far less Italian wins. You can't have it both ways.
You really need to take the Cav fanboy hat off. No way would Cavendish have been winning as frequently against Kittel at his best. 36 year old Petacchi could still beat Cav on occasion for Gods sake.

And of course Cipo would not have won as many Giro stages if he had focused on the Tour, but I bet he would have had similar figures to Cav in Tour stages. If people think Cav is the greatest, there is a good case for that, but when I see people saying undisputed or undoubted GOAT, I just think that is nonsense. Cav and Cipo have very similar palmares, except one is skewed toward Tour stages v Giro stages which reflects their respective priorities based on Nationality, teams and respective eras. Also Cipo has 3 Ghent-Wevelgem titles to his name. Flip their respective nationalities/priorities and I bet the results would be similar.

Also on the opposition thing in 2008-10

2010 TDF Stage 18 Top 5
  1. Cav
  2. Dean(35)
  3. Petacchi(36)
  4. McEwen(38)
  5. Freire(34)
That is their respective ages, not wins lol. Of course there was also Hushovd(over 30) who won a total of 3 Tour Bunch sprint stages across 7 Tours before Cav arrived. Hardly prolific. Then lets look at the rest of the non over 30s opposition for Cav in those Tours

Farrar, Feillu, Hutarovich, Rojas, Ciolek, Duque, Forster, Steegmans, Seb Chavanel, Mondory, Hinault, Galinzyanov, Boasson Hagen, Bonnet, Chicchi.

They combine for a Total of 4 Tour de France sprint stage wins, and less than 20 GT stage wins between them. And people want to argue that Cav's opposition when he was at his peak were not weak. A bunch of old guys who Cipo was better than, and a lot of very average sprinters.
 
Getting some serious PTSD from tennis era arguments now. Arguments get entirely circular, not to mention this is some embarrassing cherry picking.

Nadal never beat a multiple RG winner on clay.
Dude, I picked that stage cos it's funny. How often do you see that many oldies in a sprint together? I listed all of Cav's rival in the Tour during that time. Put them in whatever order you want, it doesn't change the fact it was a bunch of old guys and a load of average sprinters. A far cry from Cipollini, Abdu & Zabel facing off in their pomp.
 
And of course Cipo would not have won as many Giro stages if he had focused on the Tour, but I bet he would have had similar figures to Cav in Tour stages. If people think Cav is the greatest, there is a good case for that, but when I see people saying undisputed or undoubted GOAT, I just think that is nonsense. Cav and Cipo have very similar palmares, except one is skewed toward Tour stages v Giro stages which reflects their respective priorities based on Nationality, teams and respective eras. Also Cipo has 3 Ghent-Wevelgem titles to his name. Flip their respective nationalities/priorities and I bet the results would be similar.
Cipollini never won on the champs elysees, not sure he ever even made it that far. Cavendish won 4 in a row.

And even in cipo times there was more money and prestige in the tour, probably even for italians.
 
I’m late to this subject, but wanted to throw my opinion in there regardless. I always loved Cipo, while Cavendish took my a few years to warm up to. The thing with Cipo is that in the States, we didn’t really even know what the purpose of the green jersey was because we didn’t have coverage of sprint stages until the 1990s. We knew that Sean Kelly won a lot of them, but we didn’t get to see how they were won very often. We had 2 hour weekend shows during the TDF- no Giro coverage.
So a lot of those sprinters were names we read in magazines and nothing more. Everything else was solely focused around LeMond and his rivals. Abdujapourov changed that as well as daily highlights. Cipollini took it to another level. He was the first sprinter that we could root for (or against).

Cavendish, on the other hand, had to win me over. By the time he came onto the scene, Cipollini was gone (albeit his brief return with Rock Racing), and Petacchi was almost as good at his peak. You also had a very likable Robbie McEwan, and Zabel was still hanging around and finishing races (was never a fan). Cavendish had so much hype (Remco levels) and he was cocky that it was easy to hope the big boys knocked him down a peg. After a while though, I came to really admire him as a rider.

Cavendish was/is much more versatile than Cipo ever was as a sprinter. By no means was Cavendish ever Sagan-esque, but he could find ways to win a sprint that Cipo never could’ve pulled off. On the other hand, Cipo was the better straightaway sprinter and if you put the 2 teams in a lead out straightaway head 2 head, I think Cipo wins.

However, Cav is/was the better all around sprinter/cyclist of the two. Cipo could get over the mountains when he was motivated enough to do so, but Cav was good enough to do it just about every time and still dominate his era. He had weaker competition at times, but he still went head to head with a green jersey winning Petacchi in 2010 and won like 5 stages.
 
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I think his 09 MSR, stage 18 09 TdF, stage 20 10 TdF 11 stage 5 TdF, WC, 2 of the 3 stages in GdI 12, stage 18 12 TdF, TdF 15 stage, and stage 1 16 TdF showed the top of his sprinting either winning far back, maintaining a long sprint uphill, without a leadout and swamped, or all of the above.


Sorry for the shumble, am driving and they were coming too me
 
I have seen Cipollini win G-W in a hard race in a sprint of 5 people and he thought hard (too hard) to defend his victory the next year.

Point is, Cipollini was certainly more than a boulevard sprinter with a huge train.

Edit: he also won this stage


And I don't remember the towing going in the CN report
 
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Edit: he also won this stage

Who commented about Cav winning against Old men? 2nd and 3rd on that stage were 34 and 37! And 4th and 5th were Spanish, so really don't count as sprinters.

All the arguments about Cav v Cip are circular, they both picked up wins against weak fields, but then, that is what they're paid to do. It's not their fault if the next best sprinter in the peloton that day is the wrong side of 33, they still have to ride.

They do both have enough wins against good sprinters to say that yes, they were the best of their generations, and stack up against anyone else.
Check out the top 20 from Cav's last TdF stage win; https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/tour-de-france/2016/stage-14 , and there was also a strong sprinting field at Cipo's last Tour where he won 4 stages; https://www.procyclingstats.com/race/tour-de-france/1999/stage-5/result/result
 
Didn't Cipollini and Petacchi's palmares benefit massively from the Giro organizers inserting a dozen flat stages in the Giros
I’m late to this subject, but wanted to throw my opinion in there regardless. I always loved Cipo, while Cavendish took my a few years to warm up to. The thing with Cipo is that in the States, we didn’t really even know what the purpose of the green jersey was because we didn’t have coverage of sprint stages until the 1990s. We knew that Sean Kelly won a lot of them, but we didn’t get to see how they were won very often. We had 2 hour weekend shows during the TDF- no Giro coverage.
So a lot of those sprinters were names we read in magazines and nothing more. Everything else was solely focused around LeMond and his rivals. Abdujapourov changed that as well as daily highlights. Cipollini took it to another level. He was the first sprinter that we could root for (or against).

Cavendish, on the other hand, had to win me over. By the time he came onto the scene, Cipollini was gone (albeit his brief return with Rock Racing), and Petacchi was almost as good at his peak. You also had a very likable Robbie McEwan, and Zabel was still hanging around and finishing races (was never a fan). Cavendish had so much hype (Remco levels) and he was cocky that it was easy to hope the big boys knocked him down a peg. After a while though, I came to really admire him as a rider.

Cavendish was/is much more versatile than Cipo ever was as a sprinter. By no means was Cavendish ever Sagan-esque, but he could find ways to win a sprint that Cipo never could’ve pulled off. On the other hand, Cipo was the better straightaway sprinter and if you put the 2 teams in a lead out straightaway head 2 head, I think Cipo wins.

However, Cav is/was the better all around sprinter/cyclist of the two. Cipo could get over the mountains when he was motivated enough to do so, but Cav was good enough to do it just about every time and still dominate his era. He had weaker competition at times, but he still went head to head with a green jersey winning Petacchi in 2010 and won like 5 stages.

Considering you would not have seen much of Cipo except from at the Tour and that was really only from 95 onwards when he was already 28, I fail to see how you can make a judgement on his versatility. For a start Cipo won Ghent-Wevelgem 3 times, once from a break, Cav never even came close which already puts Cipo ahead? Cipo did not have a train in his early career either, for example when he beat Abdu 3 times at the Giro in 91, he was on the same team as the overall Winner, Franco Chioccioli. There was no train. When Cav was at SKY for one season, he moaned and whinged about not having a train. Cipo only really had the train from 95 onwards.

Cavendish didn't go head to head with Petacchi until 2010 when he was 36 FFS. McEwen and Zabel were even older at that time. Those same guys were all in their late 20s/early 30s when Cipo retired. The point is right through Cipos career, there was always another top level sprinter around. From Van Poppel, Abdu, Nelissen in the first half of his career to Zabel, Steels, McEwen, Petacchi later in his career. None of them were in their mid to late 30s when they went against Cipo, there was never a lull in which Cipo did not have a worthy rival unlike Cav 08-11. It is debatable whether Cav was even the best sprinter in the World 2012-17. Think Kittel would have a good shout for No 1. Cipo was the top sprinter of the 90s, period.

If you think Cav was better, fine, but I highly doubt you are working off the same level of evidence for both.
 
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Who commented about Cav winning against Old men? 2nd and 3rd on that stage were 34 and 37! And 4th and 5th were Spanish, so really don't count as sprinters.
Cipollini himself was 33, so it's not like a 25 year old Cavendish vs a 36 year old Petacchi, And it's not a pure sprinter stage by any means, so I am not sure why you remembered the age argument that was used in a different context.
 
Petacchi yes, Cipo no. In fact the opposite is true for Cipos early career. Trains were not really a thing early 90s so sprint stages were not as common. Cipos first Tour in 92, there was not a bunch sprint until stage 10, the second one was the final stage. That was it. There is far more sprint opportunities in modern cycling.
Depends on how you define modern cycling. Flat stages in the Tour have gone down considerably in the last ~15 years, but the %of flat stages stolen by the breakaways has gone to 0.

When Cav won 20 stages in 4 Tours it was because he literally only lost like one sprint where he genuinely contended for the win.

I pick a random sample, and the 1998 Tour literally had 7 flat stages in the first 9 days, the other 2 were ITTs.
 
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