Mark Cavendish excuses for 2016

[StryderHells]

Re: Re:

bassano

Champs elysees? no way, I know that is a very prestige sprint but competition there is usually so weak, last 5 years is not so evident but before that only like half of real sprinters came through alps or pyrenees and another half not even rode a Tour de France anyway so champs elysees not really
and how many sprinters really won Paris Tours in last 15 years? not even close to how many of them won MSR because it is probably more suitable for breakaways and it is not nearly prestigious race as MSR
so MSR is definitelly most prestigious sprint that ever could be, maybe World Champs for pure sprinters as 2002 or 2011 can be equally prestigious

At the moment Champs Élysées is the biggest stage for the sprinters, MSR isn't a bunch sprint and if a sprinter does win its more the hard man sprinter like Kirstoff and I can't see that changing anytime soon. Change Paris-Tours to WT and then it would be a big bunch sprint sprinters classic again, the reasons breaks have been getting away and winning is the strength of the teams at that time of year just isn't string but change it to WT status and we would see stronger teams and the big kid sprinters turn up.

 

[Jspear]

Re:

sheit, i did not realise he was off to MTN-Qhubeka or Dimension Data next year for 2016.

I dont think he will get enough help to win many races. He should have taken no money, and stayed at Quickstep, and proven himself worthy of support for the TdF.

damn, I just realised this now.

All your ranting and now this.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

sheit, i did not realise he was off to MTN-Qhubeka or Dimension Data next year for 2016.

I dont think he will get enough help to win many races. He should have taken no money, and stayed at Quickstep, and proven himself worthy of support for the TdF.

damn, I just realised this now.

He will get more support at Dimension Data next season than he would of gotten if he stayed with Etixx, he will have Renshaw, Eisel, Boasson Hagen and possibly Farrar in his train. Also I don't think it was money that caused him to leave Etixx, Lefevere didn't want him anymore as Cav requires x amount of riders for his train in the big races which curtails Etixx chances to do what they do best in GT's and stage hunt. You'd expect Dimension will get invited to basically any race they want to compete in so Cavendish will win his share of races next season.

Which is why he brought in Kittel

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

sheit, i did not realise he was off to MTN-Qhubeka or Dimension Data next year for 2016.

I dont think he will get enough help to win many races. He should have taken no money, and stayed at Quickstep, and proven himself worthy of support for the TdF.

damn, I just realised this now.

He will get more support at Dimension Data next season than he would of gotten if he stayed with Etixx, he will have Renshaw, Eisel, Boasson Hagen and possibly Farrar in his train. Also I don't think it was money that caused him to leave Etixx, Lefevere didn't want him anymore as Cav requires x amount of riders for his train in the big races which curtails Etixx chances to do what they do best in GT's and stage hunt. You'd expect Dimension will get invited to basically any race they want to compete in so Cavendish will win his share of races next season.

Which is why he brought in Kittel

Precisely.
The better statement would have been "Lefevere didn't want him anymore as Cav requires x amount of riders for his train in the big races and doesn't win as much which curtails Etixx chances to do what they do in GT's and stage hunt."

 

[IndianCyclist]

Re: Re:

sheit, i did not realise he was off to MTN-Qhubeka or Dimension Data next year for 2016.

I dont think he will get enough help to win many races. He should have taken no money, and stayed at Quickstep, and proven himself worthy of support for the TdF.

damn, I just realised this now.

He will get more support at Dimension Data next season than he would of gotten if he stayed with Etixx, he will have Renshaw, Eisel, Boasson Hagen and possibly Farrar in his train. Also I don't think it was money that caused him to leave Etixx, Lefevere didn't want him anymore as Cav requires x amount of riders for his train in the big races which curtails Etixx chances to do what they do best in GT's and stage hunt. You'd expect Dimension will get invited to basically any race they want to compete in so Cavendish will win his share of races next season.

Which is why he brought in Kittel

Even Kittel is no good without a train. No good in slight hills like MSR. Also he does not have the savvy of Cav

 

[MatParker1711]

Re:

sheit, i did not realise he was off to MTN-Qhubeka or Dimension Data next year for 2016.

I dont think he will get enough help to win many races. He should have taken no money, and stayed at Quickstep, and proven himself worthy of support for the TdF.

damn, I just realised this now.

Kosta, Cummings, Haas, Van Rensberg, EBH, Eisel, Farrar & Renshaw is a damn good train.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

sheit, i did not realise he was off to MTN-Qhubeka or Dimension Data next year for 2016.

I dont think he will get enough help to win many races. He should have taken no money, and stayed at Quickstep, and proven himself worthy of support for the TdF.

damn, I just realised this now.

All your ranting and now this.

well, atleast i am honest.

with Ciolek Farrar and Hagen he has enough man-power, but I have not seen a team, even a Hunter lead Barloworld, being able to manage ascendancy in the finale of GT sprints....

And it is bad news bears time, where the old men who have their motivation gone, to retire, this is the MTN-Quebekha team. I appreciate Cav for his savvy cycling planning, his nous, this WAS NOT one of those sound choices.

I think I was getting this episode half conflated with Kittel's move across to Quickstep which has in effect replaced Cav.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

sheit, i did not realise he was off to MTN-Qhubeka or Dimension Data next year for 2016.

I dont think he will get enough help to win many races. He should have taken no money, and stayed at Quickstep, and proven himself worthy of support for the TdF.

damn, I just realised this now.

Kosta, Cummings, Haas, Van Rensberg, EBH, Eisel, Farrar & Renshaw is a damn good train.

ok, I want to see them motivated and racing to WIN like the power teams and super teams in the Protour like Quickstep ONCE Mapei Fassa and Telekom, and if they can really take ascendancy in the finale.

I like the fact they have Renshaw, but I am not confident in his motivation. EBH is young still, but gees, he lost his motivation like Andy Schleck. needs to retire too. Farrar similar.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

bassano

Champs elysees? no way, I know that is a very prestige sprint but competition there is usually so weak, last 5 years is not so evident but before that only like half of real sprinters came through alps or pyrenees and another half not even rode a Tour de France anyway so champs elysees not really
and how many sprinters really won Paris Tours in last 15 years? not even close to how many of them won MSR because it is probably more suitable for breakaways and it is not nearly prestigious race as MSR
so MSR is definitelly most prestigious sprint that ever could be, maybe World Champs for pure sprinters as 2002 or 2011 can be equally prestigious

At the moment Champs Élysées is the biggest stage for the sprinters, MSR isn't a bunch sprint and if a sprinter does win its more the hard man sprinter like Kirstoff and I can't see that changing anytime soon. Change Paris-Tours to WT and then it would be a big bunch sprint sprinters classic again, the reasons breaks have been getting away and winning is the strength of the teams at that time of year just isn't string but change it to WT status and we would see stronger teams and the big kid sprinters turn up.

agree with this post

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

sheit, i did not realise he was off to MTN-Qhubeka or Dimension Data next year for 2016.

I dont think he will get enough help to win many races. He should have taken no money, and stayed at Quickstep, and proven himself worthy of support for the TdF.

damn, I just realised this now.

All your ranting and now this.

well, atleast i am honest.

with Ciolek Farrar and Hagen he has enough man-power, but I have not seen a team, even a Hunter lead Barloworld, being able to manage ascendancy in the finale of GT sprints....

And it is bad news bears time, where the old men who have their motivation gone, to retire, this is the MTN-Quebekha team. I appreciate Cav for his savvy cycling planning, his nous, this WAS NOT one of those sound choices.

I think I was getting this episode half conflated with Kittel's move across to Quickstep which has in effect replaced Cav.

Another way to look at it would be to say, well ok, OPQS/EQS clearly had much better riders capable of establishing an incredible sprint train, but then again, they had other aspirations and goals. For example, if EQS didn't want Panzerwagon to get yellow so much, they could easily have set up the train for Cav on the cobbled stage (whether Cav would have beaten Greipel is a different matter, but he certainly had a lot more support than Greipel had at that point), like HTC would have done in that situation. MTN on the other hand will have a sole focus on Cav, and so he may able to get better, more committed support

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Another way to look at it would be to say, well ok, OPQS/EQS clearly had much better riders capable of establishing an incredible sprint train, but then again, they had other aspirations and goals. For example, if EQS didn't want Panzerwagon to get yellow so much, they could easily have set up the train for Cav on the cobbled stage (whether Cav would have beaten Greipel is a different matter, but he certainly had a lot more support than Greipel had at that point), like HTC would have done in that situation. MTN on the other hand will have a sole focus on Cav, and so he may able to get better, more committed support

I still think Cav losing about ~3-4 lbs took a bit off his top end, and did not help his CdA, his terminal velocity, and speed endurance, and his jump. Whereas losing ~5-6 lbs from gorilla (Greipel) may have helped Greipel a little in all facets, and coming to the finish a tad fresher.

But if we remember the stage on Willunga Hill in Adelaide at Tour Down Under, Greipel can always hang with the climbers and puncheurs in the pre-season on those bergs like the Ardennes, just he cannot contest sprint wins when the smack goes down in peak season in Europe in the northern hemisphere summer... he does seem to climb better than Cav on those grinding climbs, but when Cav gets a sniff at a sprinters sprint win, he can always managed to hang onto wheels to compete for wins. So that jumbled bit of info may give incoherent indication on what will happen when they both lose 2-3% of their bodyweight. I cant comment on the methods in this forum. Am I even allowed to say such ambiguous words?

imo, Cav is still GOAT. There is so much more competition these days, he competes against a catchment and talent pool about double the size of three decades ago. And sorry to use the acronym g o a t, but its so much simpler for a lazy bast@rd like me. sry

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Even Kittel is no good without a train. No good in slight hills like MSR. Also he does not have the savvy of Cav

have you dissected this tho?

it may be, that this is because he is competing against trains. So he struggles to ride against trains. Mcewen could compete against a train, but I would not even classify him as good against trains. He would be competitive, but he would not win regularly. No one wins regularly against the trains.

I would like to see Cav do it, this might be the year he has the opportunity to put it beyond doubt that he is GOAT when he takes it up against Kittel and Greipel in the bunch kicks when he is abandoned at 5 miles or 3 miles/5kms to go.

It would be good for them to go back to the year before Cipollini, and sans the trains and leadouts.

 

[StryderHells]

Re: Re:

Even Kittel is no good without a train. No good in slight hills like MSR. Also he does not have the savvy of Cav

have you dissected this tho?

it may be, that this is because he is competing against trains. So he struggles to ride against trains. Mcewen could compete against a train, but I would not even classify him as good against trains. He would be competitive, but he would not win regularly. No one wins regularly against the trains.

I would like to see Cav do it, this might be the year he has the opportunity to put it beyond doubt that he is GOAT when he takes it up against Kittel and Greipel in the bunch kicks when he is abandoned at 5 miles or 3 miles/5kms to go.

It would be good for them to go back to the year before Cipollini, and sans the trains and leadouts.

No trains mmmmmm now that would be fun to watch! I think it would show who really is the smartest/canniest sprinter and we would see a bigger spread of winners in the big sprints but this is all head in the clouds stuff unfortunately.
Looking at next season the only one of the big sprinters who does have a settled team around him is Greipel, Cav and Kittel have switched teams and the others are the next step down, if the Gorilla shows up in similar form to this season he can bag some big wins again. Cav trying to recreate his glory train won't workout the way he wants it too, even reuniting with Renshaw didn't yield the results it once did

 

[bassano]

Re: Re:

At the moment Champs Élysées is the biggest stage for the sprinters, MSR isn't a bunch sprint and if a sprinter does win its more the hard man sprinter like Kirstoff and I can't see that changing anytime soon. Change Paris-Tours to WT and then it would be a big bunch sprint sprinters classic again, the reasons breaks have been getting away and winning is the strength of the teams at that time of year just isn't string but change it to WT status and we would see stronger teams and the big kid sprinters turn up.

agree with this post

Yes and when you wrote successes of Cavendish or Cipolini you wrote, XX GT wins, MSR, World champs, etc
I did not saw you wrote how many times they won on Champs elysees, maybe because it is only one from many crappy GT stages not so much different from others according to history, nobody really care and nobody will remember who won on champs elysees thats why MSR is one level above that

even champs elysee is much easier to win because of lower competition and fact that sprinter always won (ok, in 95%)

 

[StryderHells]

Re: Re:

At the moment Champs Élysées is the biggest stage for the sprinters, MSR isn't a bunch sprint and if a sprinter does win its more the hard man sprinter like Kirstoff and I can't see that changing anytime soon. Change Paris-Tours to WT and then it would be a big bunch sprint sprinters classic again, the reasons breaks have been getting away and winning is the strength of the teams at that time of year just isn't string but change it to WT status and we would see stronger teams and the big kid sprinters turn up.

agree with this post

Yes and when you wrote successes of Cavendish or Cipolini you wrote, XX GT wins, MSR, World champs, etc
I did not saw you wrote how many times they won on Champs elysees, maybe because it is only one from many crappy GT stages not so much different from others according to history, nobody really care and nobody will remember who won on champs elysees thats why MSR is one level above that

even champs elysee is much easier to win because of lower competition and fact that sprinter always won (ok, in 95%)

We can rate MSR higher all we want but it's not the sprinters classic, at the moment the Champs Élysées stage is that race and the competition isn't that reduced if you look at the last decade+.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

At the moment Champs Élysées is the biggest stage for the sprinters, MSR isn't a bunch sprint and if a sprinter does win its more the hard man sprinter like Kirstoff and I can't see that changing anytime soon. Change Paris-Tours to WT and then it would be a big bunch sprint sprinters classic again, the reasons breaks have been getting away and winning is the strength of the teams at that time of year just isn't string but change it to WT status and we would see stronger teams and the big kid sprinters turn up.

agree with this post

Yes and when you wrote successes of Cavendish or Cipolini you wrote, XX GT wins, MSR, World champs, etc
I did not saw you wrote how many times they won on Champs elysees, maybe because it is only one from many crappy GT stages not so much different from others according to history, nobody really care and nobody will remember who won on champs elysees thats why MSR is one level above that

even champs elysee is much easier to win because of lower competition and fact that sprinter always won (ok, in 95%)

In the modern era, MSR is not a pure sprinter's classic. It may be more prestigious overall, but in the same way that RVV is perhaps more prestigious for a Belgian than PR, looking at it from a pure sprinter's POV, winning on the Champs Elysees goes much further to cement your reputation as the best sprinter in the world right now than the sprinters' results in MSR or Paris Tours or Scheldeprijs or any other classic.

 

[Mr.White]

But if a sprinter who's not so good in the long distance, or not so great over the hills (aka Cav, Greipel, Kittel, etc) wins a Milan-San Remo, that's a testimony of his greatness, much, much more than any GT stage in the world, including Champs Elysees

 

[blackcat]

btw folx. sorry for derailing the thread. apologies. i will stand by my judgement that Cav is the greatest ever sprinter however.

 

[cellardoor]

Re: Re:

At the moment Champs Élysées is the biggest stage for the sprinters, MSR isn't a bunch sprint and if a sprinter does win its more the hard man sprinter like Kirstoff and I can't see that changing anytime soon. Change Paris-Tours to WT and then it would be a big bunch sprint sprinters classic again, the reasons breaks have been getting away and winning is the strength of the teams at that time of year just isn't string but change it to WT status and we would see stronger teams and the big kid sprinters turn up.

agree with this post

Yes and when you wrote successes of Cavendish or Cipolini you wrote, XX GT wins, MSR, World champs, etc
I did not saw you wrote how many times they won on Champs elysees, maybe because it is only one from many crappy GT stages not so much different from others according to history, nobody really care and nobody will remember who won on champs elysees thats why MSR is one level above that

even champs elysee is much easier to win because of lower competition and fact that sprinter always won (ok, in 95%)

I dunno, Nicola Minali winning on the Champs Elysee sticks in my mind even though he's not that memorable a sprinter in general - I can't remember anything else he won.

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

btw folx. sorry for derailing the thread. apologies. i will stand by my judgement that Cav is the greatest ever sprinter however.

It's ok, a good debate. Cav is certainly one of the greatest - top 2/3 IMO.

But that top spot goes to Cipo, just for the margin of some of his wins. And winning 4 in a row at the '99 Tour

 

[IndianCyclist]

Re: Re:

btw folx. sorry for derailing the thread. apologies. i will stand by my judgement that Cav is the greatest ever sprinter however.

It's ok, a good debate. Cav is certainly one of the greatest - top 2/3 IMO.

But that top spot goes to Cipo, just for the margin of some of his wins. And winning 4 in a row at the '99 Tour

If we are looking at a single season, that should go to Petacchi 2003 - 4 TDF, 6 Giro, 5 Vuelta stages

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

btw folx. sorry for derailing the thread. apologies. i will stand by my judgement that Cav is the greatest ever sprinter however.

It's ok, a good debate. Cav is certainly one of the greatest - top 2/3 IMO.

But that top spot goes to Cipo, just for the margin of some of his wins. And winning 4 in a row at the '99 Tour

If we are looking at a single season, that should go to Petacchi 2003 - 4 TDF, 6 Giro, 5 Vuelta stages

valid point.

but we need to look at his competition, the strength of Velo Lombardi v other leadouts, Mcewen's year, Cooke's year, the Italian competition at the Giro, who was at the Vuelta...

Cav could have rolled much competition at the Vuelta during his dominant years, but many of those years they were races Columbia gave to Greipel to have the leadership for the sprint.

The comparison and rating should not merely be numbers, or the single year.

Cipo won multiple Ghent Wevelgem when it was Wednesday and 220 km, but I liked his win from off the front, around 2003, where he jumped off the front to catch a small break, and rode across by himself. Showed Cipo probably could have had a career similar to Boonen or Cancellara if he grew up in the lowlands.

no way Cav could have ever managed that. Just like Cav was not a rider for races like Amstel and MSR*** like Freire and Zabel and Bettini. Ok, il Grillo is not a sprinter, unless you ask Baden Cooke

Cav, like Mcewen, a pure sprinter. Brian Smith has rocks in his head if he was seriously suggesting Cav will have his nose in the wind apart from the last 200 metres of a race in 2016. I hope he wins a bunch also, a bunch of stages, a heap of stages...

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

even champs elysee is much easier to win because of lower competition and fact that sprinter always won (ok, in 95%)

Vino won in around 2005, beating Cancellara, Mcgee, he had to grab about 4 seconds off Leipheimer on Gerolsteiner. was a phenomenal stage.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

even champs elysee is much easier to win because of lower competition and fact that sprinter always won (ok, in 95%)

Vino won in around 2005, beating Cancellara, Mcgee, he had to grab about 4 seconds off Leipheimer on Gerolsteiner. was a phenomenal stage.

That was an impressive ride, because Brad McGee was on a mission to win that stage. He attacked at least 5 or 6 times dropping Cancellara and others and Vino still somehow held on.

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

even champs elysee is much easier to win because of lower competition and fact that sprinter always won (ok, in 95%)

Vino won in around 2005, beating Cancellara, Mcgee, he had to grab about 4 seconds off Leipheimer on Gerolsteiner. was a phenomenal stage.

Has to be one of the greatest stages I've seen in the last 15 years. Vino was quite determined and the entire Gerolsteiner team could do nothing to stop him. It is so, so rare that anyone other than a sprinter wins on Champs Elysee. The thing is Vino had just earlier stolen seconds from Leipheimer just prior to actually winning the stage.