Mathieu Van der Poel

[Cookster15]

Ah, the old "you're just upset your rider didn't win".

I LIKE MVDP. But I have no illusions about this sport, and haven't for years. We're well overdue our next Puerto/Festina/USPS, and when it comes a lot of riders a lot of people like will get roped in.

Is what it is, enjoy the spectacle.

That's not my point. Based upon your posting history that I recall, I suspect I've been following this sport longer than you. You accuse me of being roped in? No, I like to think I am swayed by science, facts, logic and reason. But not accepted norms which is what you are relying upon (no illusions....). Why would MvDP be the next Puerto/Festina/USPS ? Dutch conspiracy? Now there is a subject worthy of debate. .

I leave open the possibility that he has a doping advantage. But I also leave open the possibility that MvDPs watts for that duration is within the realm of physiological possibility. It might be a very small proportion of pros but that is why not all pros win dope or no dope. Outliers.

 

[Cookster15]

no! clinic default position....is to ask question and discuss....

i cheered on MVP when he went thermonuclear at strade......but i am only too aware that it
looks suspicious.....this is backed up by power numbers

but MVP is blessed with wonderful genes.....which kinda skipped his brother..

it was pointed out he got them from his father.......which was answered eloquently by another member....'but his father had no problem with doping....'

Mark L

Sorry but that is not the default clinic position. This place more often than not is less credible than PRR. Been here long enough to know.

It would not matter if MvDPs father was ex East Germany sports system. Deal with facts and let the facts decide the truth. The debate on MvDP would be better served looking for explanations of his power readings. For example, is he oxygen vector doping to preserve his ATP power as displayed at 2019 Amstel and Strade Bianchi or is he using something new? etc.

 

[ebandit]

this is the place to discuss..........no-ones opinion is more valid than any others...

i went back to watch that strade attack each time it looks more 'alien'.....MVDP
rounds ala going hard to get ahead .....ala knows exactly whats coming ..then BOOM
MVDP is 'GONE'

you will notice i have NEVER shouted 'doping' ...i have just posted as i see things knowing
that MVDP could well be 100% honest...

Mark L

 

[Publiuszam]

Sorry but that is not the default clinic position. This place more often than not is less credible than PRR. Been here long enough to know.

It would not matter if MvDPs father was ex East Germany sports system. Deal with facts and let the facts decide the truth. The debate on MvDP would be better served looking for explanations of his power readings. For example, is he oxygen vector doping to preserve his ATP power as displayed at 2019 Amstel and Strade Bianchi or is he using something new? etc.

Your position has always been that..even on wigans..when he was ripping it up. iirc. And imho your opinion on the clinic is wrong ...I think..of course there were few..very few.. posters who just scream "bloody murder" at great rides. I have been here long enough too..as zam_olyas. And the whole sky thing left the clinic with less credibility because back then there were some posters who just came to the clinic because they don't like them..and it was ridiculous.
NOI

 

[Black Betsy]

this is the place to discuss..........no-ones opinion is more valid than any others...

i went back to watch that strade attack each time it looks more 'alien'.....MVDP
rounds ala going hard to get ahead .....ala knows exactly whats coming ..then BOOM
MVDP is 'GONE'

you will notice i have NEVER shouted 'doping' ...i have just posted as i see things knowing
that MVDP could well be 100% honest...

Mark L

He just wanted it more + missing his girlfriend's birthday

 

[the delgados]

Sorry but that is not the default clinic position. This place more often than not is less credible than PRR. Been here long enough to know.

It would not matter if MvDPs father was ex East Germany sports system. Deal with facts and let the facts decide the truth. The debate on MvDP would be better served looking for explanations of his power readings. For example, is he oxygen vector doping to preserve his ATP power as displayed at 2019 Amstel and Strade Bianchi or is he using something new? etc.

"This place is more often than not less credible than PRR."
I guess you can come to that conclusion when you suspend disbelief and forget about the fact that the allowable scope of discussion in PRR is very limited.

 

[Cookster15]

"This place is more often than not less credible than PRR."
I guess you can come to that conclusion when you suspend disbelief and forget about the fact that the allowable scope of discussion in PRR is very limited.

Of course the allowable scope of PRR is limited by discussion of doping being banned, But that doesn't mean the clinic more credible. There has been much raised here of high quality but sadly this is let down by the groupthink, innuendo and as you call it "fandom". Often it will depend upon who happens to be posting.

But we are wasting our time. I laid the bait and nobody bit - please explain what MvDP is doing that the other pros are not? Nobody has come up with any suggestion.

So much for "clinic default position....is to ask question and discuss".... . The true Clinic position is to automatically suspect any rider who excels except if they are your favourite rider or one of the clinic's favorites in which case we won't discuss or ignore.

Who is asking questions and discussing what MvDP was on to win 2019 Amstel and 2021 Strade Bianchi except to claim oh those watts are impossible. Really, prove it?

 

[the delgados]

Of course the allowable scope of PRR is limited by discussion of doping being banned, But that doesn't mean the clinic more credible. There has been much raised here of high quality but sadly this is let down by the groupthink, innuendo and as you call it "fandom". Often it will depend upon who happens to be posting.

But we are wasting our time. I laid the bait and nobody bit - please explain what MvDP is doing that the other pros are not? Nobody has come up with any suggestion.

So much for "clinic default position....is to ask question and discuss".... . The true Clinic position is to automatically suspect any rider who excels except if they are your favourite rider or one of the clinic's favorites in which case we won't discuss or ignore.

Who is asking questions and discussing what MvDP was on to win 2019 Amstel and 2021 Strade Bianchi except to claim oh those watts are impossible. Really, prove it?

No one said the Clinic is more credible. You're the one who made that claim.
Unless someone followed every single step of MVDP, on a daily basis, neither you nor I can say he is or isn't doping.
At risk of becoming even more redundant, the Clinic allows for a broader discussion that includes the history of doping in cycling in particular and doping in general. Dismissing that part of the equation fundamentally negates the overall question. It's like it isn't happening at all. There's no point talking about doping if the historical part is left out.
To paraphrase Spalco,: What's the point if we don't have evidence? I totally understand that perspective and explained why earlier.
Also, you keep using the word "groupthink" but not in the proper perspective. Unless you agree that groupthink applies in the PRR section, then you are not talking in good faith. And even if you agreed, then the notion of groupthink is moot. The fundamental premise of the notion is that people essentially ignore their own thoughts or beliefs in order to go along with the crowd. I don't see that happening here.
As for your conclusions of the role "fandom" plays, there is no point in repeating what has already been said. Go back a page or two, just in case you missed points that have already been made.
I acknowledge and respect the fact you are leaps and bounds ahead of me when it comes to talk about modern technology relating to watts, etc. I immediately dismiss myself from that part of the conversation because I have no idea what you're talking about. You might be right when saying power data strongly suggests the rider is cleans. I have no clue. But I would pose a question to someone like you if it's possible to imagine how the wattage argument would be put forward if those stats existed, say, 20 years ago.

 

[Cookster15]

No one said the Clinic is more credible. You're the one who made that claim.

Actually it was what ebandit implied .....

no! clinic default position....is to ask question and discuss....

So again to this forum I ask what is MVDP doping with which explains 2019 Amstel and 2021 Strade Bianche ? Plus how did he get away with it ?

 

[the delgados]

Actually it was what ebandit implied .....



So again to this forum I ask what is MVDP doping with which explains 2019 Amstel and 2021 Strade Bianche ? Plus how did he get away with it ?

I dunno. How did Lance get away with it? How did Luc Leblanc get away with it? How did George Hincapie get away with it? How did Michael Barry get away with it? How did Dave Zabriskie get away with it?
Surely you get my point. We could spend hours examining the list of riders who took the start at the TDF who were never caught doping and ask how they got away with it.
We all know that ebandit is a character on these forms. Mark L infuses the form with takes based on his experience and knowledge. He's also here to add an amusing take that could be interpreted to mean he is making fun of both sides.
With all due respect to ebandit, he is not reciting a dissertation. He's just being funny, and I mean that in the most respectful way,

 

[Cookster15]

So let’s get back to the subject of the thread - MvDP. In my opinion, until I see convincing argument to the contrary, I suspect this could be possible not just a doping advantage.

Massive power but relatively short duration. I think it might be possible an outlier can hold huge watts then launch a 1300 watt uphill sprint. This is what we should be debating in this thread.

 

[42x16ss]

So let’s get back to the subject of the thread - MvDP. In my opinion, until I see convincing argument to the contrary, I suspect this could be possible not just a doping advantage.

Massive power but relatively short duration. I think it might be possible an outlier can hold huge watts then launch a 1300 watt uphill sprint. This is what we should be debating in this thread.

IMHO Pantani was probably one of the the biggest outliers cycling history, even without the doping. Van der Poel is obviously similarly talented, and has a huge family pedigree, but doing what he does so consistently, to the greatest riders in the peloton right now....

 

[Cookster15]

IMHO Pantani was probably one of the the biggest outliers cycling history, even without the doping. Van der Poel is obviously similarly talented, and has a huge family pedigree, but doing what he does so consistently, to the greatest riders in the peloton right now....

Thanks. Agree re Pantani. But on MvDP I’d be more suspicious if he was inconsistent. Anyway he hasn’t been around that long let’s see how he goes from here.

 

[Ripper]

Outrageous performances do not need to be either/or. No doubt vdP has great talent. But the combination of strengths defies physiological reason. No idea what folks might be 'doing'. Are they working to improve their limiters, their strengths, or both?

It's all entertainment though.

 

[Cookster15]

Outrageous performances do not need to be either/or. No doubt vdP has great talent. But the combination of strengths defies physiological reason. No idea what folks might be 'doing'. Are they working to improve their limiters, their strengths, or both?

It's all entertainment though.

That's your opinion and so far I disagree. I am still looking (and asking) for better evidence. The closest was 42x16's questioning of his sustained watts prior to unleashing that 1300watt uphill sprint which won Strade Bianche but we also saw similar power delivery in the final of 2019 Amstel. Also if VdP has a doping advantage, who is the doctor, team complicity etc? Ball is in your court to make suggestions. Physiological outliers do happen - bell curves. Agree its entertainment except I'd prefer if my sport was less like WWF wrestling thanks.

 

[the delgados]

That's your opinion and so far I disagree. I am still looking (and asking) for better evidence. The closest was 42x16's questioning of his sustained watts prior to unleashing that 1300watt uphill sprint which won Strade Bianche but we also saw similar power delivery in the final of 2019 Amstel. Also if VdP has a doping advantage, who is the doctor, team complicity etc? Ball is in your court to make suggestions. Physiological outliers do happen - bell curves. Agree its entertainment except I'd prefer if my sport was less like WWF wrestling thanks.

Seeing similar power delivery does absolutely nothing to suggest the guy is cleans. What makes you think the comparisons between Strade and Amstel apply? Please correct me if I'm wrong (I often am) , but those comparisons have nothing to do with whether or not the guy is doping. He unleashed similar amounts of power in different races. So what's your point in relation to whether or not he is using PED's?
Also, your insistence that someone provides specific examples of a rider gaining an advantage by doping has been used time and time again by people who don't want their sport to be associated with WWE. As mentioned, that is unlikely to happen soon, for reasons that have already been discussed. Blame the establishment throughout the years for tarnishing the sport's image, not some rando who happens to pay attention.

 

[Cookster15]

Seeing similar power delivery does absolutely nothing to suggest the guy is cleans. What makes you think the comparisons between Strade and Amstel apply? Please correct me if I'm wrong (I often am) , but those comparisons have nothing to do with whether or not the guy is doping. He unleashed similar amounts of power in different races. So what's your point in relation to whether or not he is using PED's?
Also, your insistence that someone provides specific examples of a rider gaining an advantage by doping has been used time and time again by people who don't want their sport to be associated with WWE. As mentioned, that is unlikely to happen soon, for reasons that have already been discussed. Blame the establishment throughout the years for tarnishing the sport's image, not some rando who happens to pay attention.

Agree. But did you watch Amstel 2019? Its on Youtube. Yes Amstel wasn't on a climb but the power delivery at the end of a long hard race was similar to what we saw at Strade. After super hard racing leading the chase group back to Alaphilippe, and Kwiatkowski MVdP unleashed a fearsome sprint to come over the top of the much fresher Simon Clarke. But if VdP has a doping advantage need better explanations than what I have read so far. If he is doping now then he was also doping in 2019.

As for Ripper, his is typical of the establishment view but isn't helpful. It is the view that I think actually allows doping by deferring to accepted norms as I mentioned upthread. Lack of critical thought and not backing up opinion statements with logic, reason and evidence. Only 42x16 made any attempt at that on this thread. Disappointing.

Plus I referred to WWE because that is the ultimate example where the show is more important than the true athletic contest. WWE are the world's highest paid clowns in my opinion. But I'd like to think Professional road racing isn't 100% determined by who dopes best but also fair sport and athletic performances. Logic, reason, facts, evidence. Otherwise its just personal opinions and helps dopers by lack of credibility.

Just to repeat, I am not saying MVdP isn't doping. I am saying nobody here has provided a credible explanation why.

 

[Ripper]

I enjoy watching vdP race, he's aggressive and talented. Just so there's some context when I say it's entertainment.

Of course it is my opinion that certain combinations of strengths defies physiological reason. Having said this, there is also considerable evidence in sports research where an individual improve in one area, say anaerobic capacity, but that has impacts to other domains; some additional context that my opinion is not just based on groupthink or watching a simple outlier performance and saying is must be dopy time

And Cookster15, it is simply your opinion that "I am saying nobody here has provided a credible explanation why". This is the wonder of forums, lots of opinions!

It is wonderful to watch racing again!

 

[Cookster15]

I enjoy watching vdP race, he's aggressive and talented. Just so there's some context when I say it's entertainment.

Of course it is my opinion that certain combinations of strengths defies physiological reason. Having said this, there is also considerable evidence in sports research where an individual improve in one area, say anaerobic capacity, but that has impacts to other domains; some additional context that my opinion is not just based on groupthink or watching a simple outlier performance and saying is must be dopy time

And Cookster15, it is simply your opinion that "I am saying nobody here has provided a credible explanation why". This is the wonder of forums, lots of opinions!

It is wonderful to watch racing again!

That's better! I agree I am posting my opinion just asking for a little more from the MVdP doubters. I am also aware of the theory on boosting aerobic capacity can boost anaerobic capacity as MVdP has shown. Just asking for more debate and evidence as I still think doping isn't the only possible explanation for MVdP's numbers. But I completely agree its great to follow racing again. So much better than one year ago when Covid was wrecking everything.

 

[Cookster15]

Your position has always been that..even on wigans..when he was ripping it up. iirc.

Hello zam_olyas, actually I was always suspicious of Wiggins so maybe you have me confused with someone else.

 

[PhiLiz]

 

[therealthing]

How kind of him to make the dilemma between watching PN and TA easier!

 

[Ripper]

LOL. MvdP goes nuclear, somewhat expected after taking a much easier day yesterday, and even though that is indeed a fairly crazy performance, it is overshadowed by the nuclear fission reaction of TP.

 

[the delgados]

Someone a while back not so subtly suggested I stop making comparisons between Genvieve Jeanson - a rider who absolutely obliterated her opponents in an almost comical fashion -- and modern day riders. Point being the comparisons were unfair.
I don't know MVDP or anyone in his entourage, including his father. I don't know what influence, if any, his entourage has on MVDP. I don't know if MVDP is using PED's to enhance his astonishing performances.
But after watching his immediate post-race interview after winning in such dominant fashion, it seemed he was searching for words to say how tired he was and how taxing the race-winning move had on him.
It turned out that Genvieve Jeanson's entourage had a huge influence in her career, and that included plying her with a boatload of drugs. She had the deer-in-the-headlight look when describing to the media her astonishing performances. To paraphrase: Yeah,I was at my limit near the end of the race I won by 15 minutes. It turned out that she was being manipulated by those in her entourage to dope and win at all costs.
Do I know that's happening with MVDP? Absolutely not. The man is immensely gifted. But based on distant observation viewed through the lens of media, one cannot help but wonder if similar scenarios apply.

 

[Cookster15]

After today a reassessment is required. But is this different from say Sagan riding way from the chasers in 2018 PR ? More evidence needed, but I must say the picture above of a hydrogen bomb (nuclear fusion) test is pretty funny !

And I might add, VdP is also only 26 so I am afraid he is still likely not reached his best years !!