Mathieu Van der Poel

[Cookster15]

IMHO Pantani was probably one of the the biggest outliers cycling history, even without the doping. Van der Poel is obviously similarly talented, and has a huge family pedigree, but doing what he does so consistently, to the greatest riders in the peloton right now....

Thanks. Agree re Pantani. But on MvDP I’d be more suspicious if he was inconsistent. Anyway he hasn’t been around that long let’s see how he goes from here.

 

[Ripper]

Outrageous performances do not need to be either/or. No doubt vdP has great talent. But the combination of strengths defies physiological reason. No idea what folks might be 'doing'. Are they working to improve their limiters, their strengths, or both?

It's all entertainment though.

 

[Cookster15]

Outrageous performances do not need to be either/or. No doubt vdP has great talent. But the combination of strengths defies physiological reason. No idea what folks might be 'doing'. Are they working to improve their limiters, their strengths, or both?

It's all entertainment though.

That's your opinion and so far I disagree. I am still looking (and asking) for better evidence. The closest was 42x16's questioning of his sustained watts prior to unleashing that 1300watt uphill sprint which won Strade Bianche but we also saw similar power delivery in the final of 2019 Amstel. Also if VdP has a doping advantage, who is the doctor, team complicity etc? Ball is in your court to make suggestions. Physiological outliers do happen - bell curves. Agree its entertainment except I'd prefer if my sport was less like WWF wrestling thanks.

 

[the delgados]

That's your opinion and so far I disagree. I am still looking (and asking) for better evidence. The closest was 42x16's questioning of his sustained watts prior to unleashing that 1300watt uphill sprint which won Strade Bianche but we also saw similar power delivery in the final of 2019 Amstel. Also if VdP has a doping advantage, who is the doctor, team complicity etc? Ball is in your court to make suggestions. Physiological outliers do happen - bell curves. Agree its entertainment except I'd prefer if my sport was less like WWF wrestling thanks.

Seeing similar power delivery does absolutely nothing to suggest the guy is cleans. What makes you think the comparisons between Strade and Amstel apply? Please correct me if I'm wrong (I often am) , but those comparisons have nothing to do with whether or not the guy is doping. He unleashed similar amounts of power in different races. So what's your point in relation to whether or not he is using PED's?
Also, your insistence that someone provides specific examples of a rider gaining an advantage by doping has been used time and time again by people who don't want their sport to be associated with WWE. As mentioned, that is unlikely to happen soon, for reasons that have already been discussed. Blame the establishment throughout the years for tarnishing the sport's image, not some rando who happens to pay attention.

 

[Cookster15]

Seeing similar power delivery does absolutely nothing to suggest the guy is cleans. What makes you think the comparisons between Strade and Amstel apply? Please correct me if I'm wrong (I often am) , but those comparisons have nothing to do with whether or not the guy is doping. He unleashed similar amounts of power in different races. So what's your point in relation to whether or not he is using PED's?
Also, your insistence that someone provides specific examples of a rider gaining an advantage by doping has been used time and time again by people who don't want their sport to be associated with WWE. As mentioned, that is unlikely to happen soon, for reasons that have already been discussed. Blame the establishment throughout the years for tarnishing the sport's image, not some rando who happens to pay attention.

Agree. But did you watch Amstel 2019? Its on Youtube. Yes Amstel wasn't on a climb but the power delivery at the end of a long hard race was similar to what we saw at Strade. After super hard racing leading the chase group back to Alaphilippe, and Kwiatkowski MVdP unleashed a fearsome sprint to come over the top of the much fresher Simon Clarke. But if VdP has a doping advantage need better explanations than what I have read so far. If he is doping now then he was also doping in 2019.

As for Ripper, his is typical of the establishment view but isn't helpful. It is the view that I think actually allows doping by deferring to accepted norms as I mentioned upthread. Lack of critical thought and not backing up opinion statements with logic, reason and evidence. Only 42x16 made any attempt at that on this thread. Disappointing.

Plus I referred to WWE because that is the ultimate example where the show is more important than the true athletic contest. WWE are the world's highest paid clowns in my opinion. But I'd like to think Professional road racing isn't 100% determined by who dopes best but also fair sport and athletic performances. Logic, reason, facts, evidence. Otherwise its just personal opinions and helps dopers by lack of credibility.

Just to repeat, I am not saying MVdP isn't doping. I am saying nobody here has provided a credible explanation why.

 

[Ripper]

I enjoy watching vdP race, he's aggressive and talented. Just so there's some context when I say it's entertainment.

Of course it is my opinion that certain combinations of strengths defies physiological reason. Having said this, there is also considerable evidence in sports research where an individual improve in one area, say anaerobic capacity, but that has impacts to other domains; some additional context that my opinion is not just based on groupthink or watching a simple outlier performance and saying is must be dopy time

And Cookster15, it is simply your opinion that "I am saying nobody here has provided a credible explanation why". This is the wonder of forums, lots of opinions!

It is wonderful to watch racing again!

 

[Cookster15]

I enjoy watching vdP race, he's aggressive and talented. Just so there's some context when I say it's entertainment.

Of course it is my opinion that certain combinations of strengths defies physiological reason. Having said this, there is also considerable evidence in sports research where an individual improve in one area, say anaerobic capacity, but that has impacts to other domains; some additional context that my opinion is not just based on groupthink or watching a simple outlier performance and saying is must be dopy time

And Cookster15, it is simply your opinion that "I am saying nobody here has provided a credible explanation why". This is the wonder of forums, lots of opinions!

It is wonderful to watch racing again!

That's better! I agree I am posting my opinion just asking for a little more from the MVdP doubters. I am also aware of the theory on boosting aerobic capacity can boost anaerobic capacity as MVdP has shown. Just asking for more debate and evidence as I still think doping isn't the only possible explanation for MVdP's numbers. But I completely agree its great to follow racing again. So much better than one year ago when Covid was wrecking everything.

 

[Cookster15]

Your position has always been that..even on wigans..when he was ripping it up. iirc.

Hello zam_olyas, actually I was always suspicious of Wiggins so maybe you have me confused with someone else.

 

[PhiLiz]

 

[therealthing]

How kind of him to make the dilemma between watching PN and TA easier!

 

[Ripper]

LOL. MvdP goes nuclear, somewhat expected after taking a much easier day yesterday, and even though that is indeed a fairly crazy performance, it is overshadowed by the nuclear fission reaction of TP.

 

[the delgados]

Someone a while back not so subtly suggested I stop making comparisons between Genvieve Jeanson - a rider who absolutely obliterated her opponents in an almost comical fashion -- and modern day riders. Point being the comparisons were unfair.
I don't know MVDP or anyone in his entourage, including his father. I don't know what influence, if any, his entourage has on MVDP. I don't know if MVDP is using PED's to enhance his astonishing performances.
But after watching his immediate post-race interview after winning in such dominant fashion, it seemed he was searching for words to say how tired he was and how taxing the race-winning move had on him.
It turned out that Genvieve Jeanson's entourage had a huge influence in her career, and that included plying her with a boatload of drugs. She had the deer-in-the-headlight look when describing to the media her astonishing performances. To paraphrase: Yeah,I was at my limit near the end of the race I won by 15 minutes. It turned out that she was being manipulated by those in her entourage to dope and win at all costs.
Do I know that's happening with MVDP? Absolutely not. The man is immensely gifted. But based on distant observation viewed through the lens of media, one cannot help but wonder if similar scenarios apply.

 

[Cookster15]

After today a reassessment is required. But is this different from say Sagan riding way from the chasers in 2018 PR ? More evidence needed, but I must say the picture above of a hydrogen bomb (nuclear fusion) test is pretty funny !

And I might add, VdP is also only 26 so I am afraid he is still likely not reached his best years !!

 

[ppanther92]

Seeing similar power delivery does absolutely nothing to suggest the guy is cleans.

Sure but outstanding performances do at the same time not mean he is doping. There might always be physical outliers.

But this, of course, also applies to other dominators (Froome, Pogacar, Roglic, WvA, ...). We just tend to believe things we have seen before more easily.

 

[BlueRoads]

I think of course great performances don't mean someone is doped. An average or weak performance doesn't mean the person's not doped. But whenever someone showed extreme accomplishments in sport, in 95% of the cases it turned out they were doped. When it didn't turn out that way it was often a case of "everyone knows, but it cannot be proven" (like Florence Griffith-Joyner). So, these total physical outliers - they just don't exist, in my opinion.

The question is, when can a performance be considered "extreme"? It's a bit like plastic surgery: there are cases in which you don't see it, cases gone wrong, cases where you think "could be/ could be natural", but then there's a 60year old looking like a super-hot 25year old with super-tight breasts and lips and you just know: Okay, good genes and care and all, but this is just over the top.
General thought.
About van der Poel, I find him highly suspicious, but I'm not 100% convinced.

 

[King Boonen]

Mod hat on:

Could we remove the personal commentary about other users please. Ascribing particular positions to people is highly likely to lead to arguments and off-topic discussions so let's nip it in the bud.

Cheers,

KB.

 

[Ripper]

I think of course great performances don't mean someone is doped. An average or weak performance doesn't mean the person's not doped. But whenever someone showed extreme accomplishments in sport, in 95% of the cases it turned out they were doped. When it didn't turn out that way it was often a case of "everyone knows, but it cannot be proven" (like Florence Griffith-Joyner). So, these total physical outliers - they just don't exist, in my opinion.

The question is, when can a performance be considered "extreme"? It's a bit like plastic surgery: there are cases in which you don't see it, cases gone wrong, cases where you think "could be/ could be natural", but then there's a 60year old looking like a super-hot 25year old with super-tight breasts and lips and you just know: Okay, good genes and care and all, but this is just over the top.
General thought.
About van der Poel, I find him highly suspicious, but I'm not 100% convinced.

I think something to consider is that the top racers, as a group in the world tour, are already outliers. It only takes a fraction of a percent, for one to beat another. so when you see massive outlier performances, and a group of people that are already outliers, it raises eyebrows. And again, that can happen ... what gets even crazier is when it happens over and over again.

 

[SaulGoodman]

MvDP and WvA, absolutely destroying the competition since they were little kids. Can't say for sure ofcourse, but I don't think they're on doping.
I find it more difficult to believe the performances of Pogacar. Where everyone saw REV coming, nobody saw TP coming. And that's a bit fishy. Also the Gianetti connection.

But innocent until proven guilty, so I really enjoy all of these incredible riders.

 

[TMJ]

We can tie ourselves in knots watching the sport with this in the back of our heads.

I say: 'Just enjoy the show.'

Let's be realistic. What the teams and cyclists get away with is part and parcel of the sport as much as training; nutrition; sports science; teamwork; course knowledge; racing knowhow etc...etc....

Remember that in the past people were jumping in the back of trucks or riding trains to cheat and today those tales are retold with a big smile and twinkle in the eye.

 

[Cookster15]

We can tie ourselves in knots watching the sport with this in the back of our heads.

I say: 'Just enjoy the show.'

Let's be realistic. What the teams and cyclists get away with is part and parcel of the sport as much as training; nutrition; sports science; teamwork; course knowledge; racing knowhow etc...etc....

Remember that in the past people were jumping in the back of trucks or riding trains to cheat and today those tales are retold with a big smile and twinkle in the eye.

I generally agree but I think we should be should be careful in simply wanting to "enjoy the show". This attitude can open a can of doping worms and a medical arms race. It is the attitude that gave us the 90s EPO era.

 

[the delgados]

I generally agree but I think we should be should be careful in simply wanting to "enjoy the show". This attitude can open a can of doping worms and a medical arms race. It is the attitude that gave us the 90s EPO era.

Cookster, with all due respect, that can of worms were opened so long ago that the worms have long since been gobbled up.
I'm now beginning to think your's is a joke account. It took a while, which is why I'm not the brightest log on the yuletide fire.

 

[Cookster15]

Cookster, with all due respect, that can of worms were opened so long ago that the worms have long since been gobbled up.
I'm now beginning to think your's is a joke account. It took a while, which is why I'm not the brightest log on the yuletide fire.

With all due respect I would not care if this can of worms was opened 50 years ago. Again this is accepted norms. I don't care about accepted norms. I care for a reasonably fair sport. I am not interested in WWF wrestling on wheels - leave that to the professional clowns like Hulk Hogan. But if we give up that is what would eventuate. Professional sport might never be clean but we can always strive to make it as safe and clean as possible. That is what the UCI passport was about, steroids tests etc.

 

[Publiuszam]

I am not 100 percent sure whether Mvdp is doping or not. But it is great to watch and him having some weakness still is great. By the by his father excuse when he was caught doping was right up there.

 

[the delgados]

exactly! that's why seeing MVDP going ballistic....doping is a likely possibility...

the idea of 'fair sport' is a noble one....... alas truth is cycling is far from fair....with differences
in budgets/opportunities/genetics

for me doping will always remain an interesting topic of discussion just to learn exactly what teams get up to.....i'm sure this is far beyond what observers would expect.....look at
MVDP stuffing gels down when on the attack at TR....long after he must have taken on enough
energy more gels disappeared......

Mark L

Thanks for bringing up the gel consumption as well. I can't remember the exact races, but he took on gels 3 km's before the finish on at least two occasions where he won the race.. I have no idea what that means, but it's not often you see riders gelling up so close to the finish.

 

[Cookster15]

Strange this thread went quiet when MVdP was beaten by Kasper Asgreen. New thread for Asgreen?