Matt Cooke, did he go there?

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I don't do twitter. Not a fan.

I do believe DiLuca when it is backed by what Michael Ashenden said. No team doping like old. Small pockets or individuals doping. Again, confirmed by what I have heard on the grapevine.

Maybe you should at look at connecting with some people involved at the sport, maybe those who have shown a willingness to speak out. Contact Cooke yourself and ask him what he knows in private. Actually learn something about what really goes on instead of your own version of reality.

Thanks, my version of reality is fine. Being connected doesn't mean the truth will be told.

There is no team doping like old, because EPO is not the doping drug of choice like the old days. That is it still in use is not questioned. It is being microdosed with a whole plethora of other stuff. CIRC reported some riders taking 30 pills a day!

I had plenty of opportunities to talk to Di Luca in person, but figured he would never tell me his 'program' so just ignored him. Same with Garzelli and others who i 'met' a few times, but was not going to get the info of their doping out of them now was I? Not doubt your pro pals fill you with their versions of their realities and you buy into it hook, line and sinker.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

I had plenty of opportunities to talk to Di Luca in person, but figured he would never tell me his 'program' so just ignored him. Same with Garzelli and others who i 'met' a few times, but was not going to get the info of their doping out of them now was I? Not doubt your pro pals fill you with their versions of their realities and you buy into it hook, line and sinker.

No no you got it all wrong.

These riders tell you the programs of other riders, not their program.

Then you keep a lid on it.

Then when one of those riders retires and starts bashing JV or some other FOS ex-doping team manager, you start contesting his claims by arguing he allegedly doped himself.

Got it?

Good.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I had plenty of opportunities to talk to Di Luca in person, but figured he would never tell me his 'program' so just ignored him. Same with Garzelli and others who i 'met' a few times, but was not going to get the info of their doping out of them now was I? Not doubt your pro pals fill you with their versions of their realities and you buy into it hook, line and sinker.

No no you got it all wrong.

These riders tell you the programs of other riders, not their program.

Then you keep a lid on it.

Then when one of those riders retires and starts bashing JV or some other FOS ex-doping team manager, you start contesting his claims by arguing he allegedly doped himself.

Got it?

Good.

Yeah, Garzelli and team mates were bursting to tell me what the others were doing, but i refused to let them. I know they were gutted

 

[More Strides than Rides]

I realize the conversation has moved on, but just want to acknowledge that I appreciate the context he (Cooke) has given about his experience on Navigators. He's put his skin in the game, with regards to openness and transparency he has demanded of others, which were my concerns from the get-go. I'm frustrated that my posts came off has omerta-enforcement (because maybe you're reading this, Matt), and there is value in every perspective. I hope he shares more. I will say that maybe twitter isn't the best forum to share what he knows: 140 characters is hard...

And because I'm here, I almost always agree with pmcg's "it's more compicated than that" attitude.

Because it is. It always is. And it's always worth addressing the nuance.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

The peloton slowed down in 2008 = clean, since when?

Doping is a line and once crossed you are cheating, there is no big wide grey zone. So whether speeds were down or not does not equal clean.

JV got mocked for lots of things and all them imo justified. He claimed he had an internal testing program costing the team half a million $ a year. Proof his team were clean. Lies. JV is not part of a clean cycling solution. He was vociferous about catching Armstrong, but since then he has played omerta again as much anyone else in the sport. More so, calling Sky clean FFS.

Cooke is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things but another voice ranting :rolleyes and raving about doping aint no bad thing. Pity those in power were not ranting and raving at the dopers and cheats.

Except nobody said it was clean just that things had improved enough so that clean guys could compete. You disagree with that, maybe query Vayer about what he says.

Did they not have an internal testing program? because at other times you have claimed it existed to make sure nobody tested positive. Which is it?

I dont think JV was vociferous about catching Lance. He contributed to the downfall when called as did his team members but he was never running around like Walsh with the big aim of taking down Lance. More revisionst nonsense.

All these things you claim are your own personal opinions rather than what the truth may actually be.

Tilford went to GarminHQ in Denver at the invitation of Vaughters and 2/3 riders where there and JV got them to do some tests and they let it slip that 1st time tested in years!

If JV had internal testing they would have found TomD's positive before USADA.

 

[pmcg76]

Re: Re:

The peloton slowed down in 2008 = clean, since when?

Doping is a line and once crossed you are cheating, there is no big wide grey zone. So whether speeds were down or not does not equal clean.

JV got mocked for lots of things and all them imo justified. He claimed he had an internal testing program costing the team half a million $ a year. Proof his team were clean. Lies. JV is not part of a clean cycling solution. He was vociferous about catching Armstrong, but since then he has played omerta again as much anyone else in the sport. More so, calling Sky clean FFS.

Cooke is not a big deal in the grand scheme of things but another voice ranting :rolleyes and raving about doping aint no bad thing. Pity those in power were not ranting and raving at the dopers and cheats.

Except nobody said it was clean just that things had improved enough so that clean guys could compete. You disagree with that, maybe query Vayer about what he says.

Did they not have an internal testing program? because at other times you have claimed it existed to make sure nobody tested positive. Which is it?

I dont think JV was vociferous about catching Lance. He contributed to the downfall when called as did his team members but he was never running around like Walsh with the big aim of taking down Lance. More revisionst nonsense.

All these things you claim are your own personal opinions rather than what the truth may actually be.

Tilford went to GarminHQ in Denver at the invitation of Vaughters and 2/3 riders where there and JV got them to do some tests and they let it slip that 1st time tested in years!

If JV had internal testing they would have found TomD's positive before USADA.

Got the impression that was more physiological testing than testing for doping. They were on the ergo-meter and stuff so I don't know. If they haven't been tested, doesn't that throw your theory that the testing is to prevent positives out the window.

Right now, Tilford is again coming in for a lot of criticism as he is defending Ochowicz and his role in the Triple Crown fix. Amzingly Tilford is saying it was all part of the game and it was 22 years ago so should be forgotten about. Does this sound like ometra or what. If there was some guy going for a good performance to get a Euro contract and he wasn't in on the deal, surely he was just as cheated as if it were a doper beating him.

You just have to remember Tiflords wife is at BMC where Och is boss. Has Cooke ever criticised BMC because if I remember correctly they were racing in the NRC back in 08/09 when they technically should not have been. Always had guys like Louder/Beyer finishing well up in races as well as again denying Cooke results. That was the period when Thomas Frei tested positive at BMC.

This is why I refuse to just unwaveringly admire people like Tilford or Cooke or even that Crankpunk guy. He posted another blog about Danny Pate but it was was so ill-informed and full of BS that it was just thrash but I am sure people loved it because the main theme was JV slamming.

I also see Kimmage was tweeting(it was posted somewhere) some of the Colombians inclduing Quintana/Chaves about an article about a Colombian ometra breaker being threatened. It was very much in the form of a dig at the Colombians from Kimmage. The irony being that the ometra breaker Villegas rode on a team that promoted clean cycling, the same team that produced Quintana/Chaves . The ometra breaker actually said it was cleaner in Europe than it was in Colombia which is why they performed better in Europe

These guys Cooke/Tilford/Rodgers all have some relevant suff to say but there is so much hypocrisy and uninformed BS contained within their stances, they are hard to take seriously. It seems more like personal vendettas than any actual genuine anti-doping talk.

 

[Benotti69]

yeah who to believe in the cesspit when everyone is covered in sh!t.

Your post does nothing but shoot guys who make a noise against doping and castigates them for that and not doing more.

I dont admire anyone currently in the sport. If i repeat stuff here is to show it to those who may not have seen it.

Tilford has a massive blind spot over BMC/Och. It gets mentioned everytime he writes about doping. Yes. No one is perfect apart from you of course.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

yeah who to believe in the cesspit when everyone is covered in sh!t.

Your post does nothing but shoot guys who make a noise against doping and castigates them for that and not doing more.

I dont admire anyone currently in the sport. If i repeat stuff here is to show it to those who may not have seen it.

Tilford has a massive blind spot over BMC/Och. It gets mentioned everytime he writes about doping. Yes. No one is perfect apart from you of course.

Right?

Despite being told countless times that an accusation or argument from person A remains valid despite inconsistent behaviour by person A and to argue otherwise is ad hominem and essentially a fallacy...

...yet the ad hominem continues to be trotted out, time after time.

It's like some people who think they are smart are unable to learn something new.

No wonder the conversations here are vortexed so consistently.

 

[pmcg76]

Re: Re:

yeah who to believe in the cesspit when everyone is covered in sh!t.

Your post does nothing but shoot guys who make a noise against doping and castigates them for that and not doing more.

I dont admire anyone currently in the sport. If i repeat stuff here is to show it to those who may not have seen it.

Tilford has a massive blind spot over BMC/Och. It gets mentioned everytime he writes about doping. Yes. No one is perfect apart from you of course.

Right?

Despite being told countless times that an accusation or argument from person A remains valid despite inconsistent behaviour by person A and to argue otherwise is ad hominem and essentially a fallacy...

...yet the ad hominem continues to be trotted out, time after time.

It's like some people who think they are smart are unable to learn something new.

No wonder the conversations here are vortexed so consistently.

I think you will find in most real life situations if person A is talking smack about Person B and it turns out that Person A is guilty of the same or is at best ignoring the same as what B did by people on their own backstep, they are usually discredited or ignored or told to shut-up. Most people don't like hypocrites grandstanding whether they are right or not. You clearly feel different on the matter which is your right, but I think you would be in a minority if the rumours turned out to be true. It is sort of happening right now in another thread.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

If you choose to go to Tilford's blog and then call it "grandstanding" ugh whatever. I don't want to get personal because it does not assist the conversation but that is like going into someone's house and calling them a bigot for painting rooms red. Ya know?

If you don't like his blog, don't fricken read it. Yeah?

Simples.

I'll tell you who grandstands.

Sky.

Yes we will release his VO2 if we ever do that test.
Oh look at all our testing.
Oh we will release it later.
Oh we will do a Q&A in Manchester you can ask all the questions you like. *crickets*

I could go on but there's no point. Your definition of grandstanding differs from mine entirely.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I think you will find in most real life situations if person A is talking smack about Person B and it turns out that Person A is guilty of the same or is at best ignoring the same as what B did by people on their own backstep, they are usually discredited or ignored or told to shut-up. Most people don't like hypocrites grandstanding whether they are right or not. You clearly feel different on the matter which is your right, but I think you would be in a minority if the rumours turned out to be true. It is sort of happening right now in another thread.

The Clinic12 are all junkies????????

Tilford's blog has been running for a few years............

I doubt Cooke will last that long.

The sport is full of guys on list A calling out guys on list B. How many called out Ricco?

Glad to see you agree that Kittel is a doper.

 

[pmcg76]

Oh lord, its SKY time...again.

Don't really need to say anymore.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Vaughters and Cooke are much the same breed as far as I can tell. Neither of them spoke up during their riding careers. After their careers, both have spoken up selectively. Neither of them have told a full story. Both have an agenda to push.

Given this, it is seems wholly appropriate to attempt to connect the dots between these disparate and incomplete stories. In fact, I would say that is the reason this forum exists. So people with too much time on their hands can begin to connect the dots between media stories, the rumor mill, and personal experience.

To assume that certain posters in this forum are more dedicated to anti-doping based on their opinions stated here is ridiculous. Few here are active in pro cycling, but clearly enjoy the sport and want it to be in a better place. If certain members would drop the sanctimony, realize that nobody has a complete version of events, and only post when they actually have information that contributes to the discussion, this forum would be a much more interesting place.

 

[Gung Ho Gun]

Re:

Armstrong, Vaughters, Millar, Danielson, CVV, Hincapie, Cooke, Ricco, Diluca etc etc etc are all pretty much the same breed as far as I can tell. They competed in a dirty time, either doped themselves, or were very friendly with serial dopers. None of them spoke up during their riding careers. After their careers, all of them have spoken up to some degree. None of them have told a full story. All have an agenda to push.

Cooke is the only one in the list who has never tested positive or confessed right?

 

[IzzyStradlin]

Re: Re:

Armstrong, Vaughters, Millar, Danielson, CVV, Hincapie, Cooke, Ricco, Diluca etc etc etc are all pretty much the same breed as far as I can tell. They competed in a dirty time, either doped themselves, or were very friendly with serial dopers. None of them spoke up during their riding careers. After their careers, all of them have spoken up to some degree. None of them have told a full story. All have an agenda to push.

Cooke is the only one in the list who has never tested positive or confessed right?

Fair point, referring more to their recent narratives. Nobody is telling a full story. Or even close.

Previous post edited to avoid sending this thread down an eternal vortex of comparing every rider to every other rider.

For the sake of reigning in the argument, just compare Vaughters and Cooke. Is one really more trustworthy or honest?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

Armstrong, Vaughters, Millar, Danielson, CVV, Hincapie, Cooke, Ricco, Diluca etc etc etc are all pretty much the same breed as far as I can tell. They competed in a dirty time, either doped themselves, or were very friendly with serial dopers. None of them spoke up during their riding careers. After their careers, all of them have spoken up to some degree. None of them have told a full story. All have an agenda to push.

Cooke is the only one in the list who has never tested positive or confessed right?

And not actively making money or has made millions and is protecting a legacy (cycling clothing brand, gran fondo, etc), right?

 

[glassmoon]

maybe a dumb question but... did he deleted his twitter or what?

 

[gooner]

Looks like he deleted his tweets because he didn't have to courage to stand by what he was saying.

The funny thing is he had a go at journalists in the past for not questioning riders and saying the things he was tweeting.

 

[thehog]

Re:

Looks like he deleted his tweets because he didn't have to courage to stand by what he was saying.

The funny thing is he had a go at journalists in the past for not questioning riders and saying the things he was tweeting.

And your evidence for this statement is what exactly? or are you expressing your opinion?

 

[gooner]

Re: Re:

Looks like he deleted his tweets because he didn't have to courage to stand by what he was saying.

The funny thing is he had a go at journalists in the past for not questioning riders and saying the things he was tweeting.

And your evidence for this statement is what exactly? or are you expressing your opinion?

I did say "looks like".

But I'm sure it's a funny coincidence though.

Cooke's account in recent times has predominantly be known for going after JV/Danielson/Gaimon/Garmin, UCI, journalists, etc.

Why is he deleting all this?

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Looks like he deleted his tweets because he didn't have to courage to stand by what he was saying.

The funny thing is he had a go at journalists in the past for not questioning riders and saying the things he was tweeting.

And your evidence for this statement is what exactly? or are you expressing your opinion?

I did say "looks like". But I'm sure it's a funny coincidence though.

Cooke's account in recent times has predominantly be known for going after JV/Danielson/Gaimon/Garmin, UCI, journalists, etc.

Why is he deleting all this?

So you're providing your own opinion? I'm not sure its funny. I think the word you're looking for is "ironic".

Funny is more like when you went back and deleted your pro-Radcliffe posts.

 

[gooner]

Re: Re:

Looks like he deleted his tweets because he didn't have to courage to stand by what he was saying.

The funny thing is he had a go at journalists in the past for not questioning riders and saying the things he was tweeting.

And your evidence for this statement is what exactly? or are you expressing your opinion?

I did say "looks like". But I'm sure it's a funny coincidence though.

Cooke's account in recent times has predominantly be known for going after JV/Danielson/Gaimon/Garmin, UCI, journalists, etc.

Why is he deleting all this?

So you're providing your own opinion? I'm not sure its funny. I think the word you're looking for is "ironic".

Funny is more like when you went back and deleted your pro-Radcliffe posts.

I didn't ask nor wanted for those to be deleted.

Nice try.

 

[thehog]

Yes, I'm sure you did not want them to be deleted.

Funny

 

[gooner]

Yes, I'm sure you did not want them to be deleted.

Funny

Just close the account.

 

[thehog]

Yes, I'm sure you did not want them to be deleted.

Funny

Just close the account.

Got it. So, back to Matt Cooke.

Apparently he 'didn't have the courage' to stand by going after "JV/Danielson/Gaimon/Garmin, UCI, journalists, etc."

Is that correct?