Teams & Riders Matteo Jorgenson and his inexorable rise to the top

[AlfaLum]

While the choice for Jumbo is a pretty obvious one, I don't get the hate that Movistar is getting for this. Do people think money grows on trees? Movistar got a ton of hate for taking some Saudi money but at the same time people are hating on them for not having a monster budget and thus not being able to pay for sending riders on altitude camps the whole year, customized TT stuff (looks like people don't realize how expensive custom TT extensions are for example), etc. Nutritionists ok, fair enough. Teams hould have that in 2023.

What I'm saying is that there's only a handfull of teams where you get these things. For 75% of the WT teams it's choosing between paying top dollars for some talent that can win or investing in all those things but not having the talent that can actually become a winner because of those investments.

Jorgensen is just trying to share how hard his living for his sport (what a real pro should do, you're not into this sports to get richt, you're trying to win), he's not trying to bash Movistar at all but people are making it out like he is.

Same story as with Jay Vine.

Well, for me it's still very strange that he has to pay himself for nutritionists, masseurs etc. even altitude camps for me is quite suprising to be fair. In a time where it has proven to make such a significant impact I would argue that it would be better for Movistar (who I think have a more than decent budget) to spent a bit less on salaries, and a bit more on these not so marginal gains for riders on the roster. I can not imagine they are already using all the money that became available when Valverde left the roster. But even if they do, maybe it would have been better not so sign someone like Gaviria in order to give guys like Jorgenson and especially Mas a better chance to compete with competitors who are clearly working in a much easier environment to perform.

 

[Samamba]

Well, for me it's still very strange that he has to pay himself for nutritionists, masseurs etc. even altitude camps for me is quite suprising to be fair. In a time where it has proven to make such a significant impact I would argue that it would be better for Movistar (who I think have a more than decent budget) to spent a bit less on salaries, and a bit more on these not so marginal gains for riders on the roster. I can not imagine they are already using all the money that became available when Valverde left the roster. But even if they do, maybe it would have been better not so sign someone like Gaviria in order to give guys like Jorgenson and especially Mas a better chance to compete with competitors who are clearly working in a much easier environment to perform.

Movistar has a nutritionist. From what I understand Jorgensen opted to use another one. Masseurs I don't know, he probably means that he needed his own on his personal training camps, cause it's not like Movistar doesn't have them.

Well I agree that it might have been the better choice to give in on salaries a bit and focus on performance more, but that's not an easy choice as without enough talent all those performance things simply don't matter. I also think Mas gets al those things, he definitely doesn't get the same treatment as the others. That's often the case if the non-top teams. The leaders gets those things, but the rest doesn't as there is no money to give it to everyone.

My point is just that it's weird to bash Movistar for it, as it's just a result of budget mainly. They still helped Jorgensen doing these things. Like Velasco going to test those TT extentions with him. Spending time helping hem wasn't the problem, it's money.

 

[Rob5091]

Interesting Twitter thread, which I don't know if Movistar management were glad to see, but as he's off next year there's not a lot they can do. It does underline what Vine said about "two-speed cycling" where a few teams with big bucks can pay and organize all the preparation instead of only the team leaders getting it, or riders having to pay themselves. Hats off to Jorgenson though for putting in the extra work.

 

[Nick2413]

Interesting Twitter thread, which I don't know if Movistar management were glad to see, but as he's off next year there's not a lot they can do. It does underline what Vine said about "two-speed cycling" where a few teams with big bucks can pay and organize all the preparation instead of only the team leaders getting it, or riders having to pay themselves. Hats off to Jorgenson though for putting in the extra work.

Yep, and somehow the teams that aren’t rich are the ones that get blamed .

Masseuses though… that’s just luxury.

 

[Potomac]

Good grief, the insecurities of people posting about "blame"

 

[AlfaLum]

Movistar has a nutritionist. From what I understand Jorgensen opted to use another one. Masseurs I don't know, he probably means that he needed his own on his personal training camps, cause it's not like Movistar doesn't have them.

Well I agree that it might have been the better choice to give in on salaries a bit and focus on performance more, but that's not an easy choice as without enough talent all those performance things simply don't matter. I also think Mas gets al those things, he definitely doesn't get the same treatment as the others. That's often the case if the non-top teams. The leaders gets those things, but the rest doesn't as there is no money to give it to everyone.

My point is just that it's weird to bash Movistar for it, as it's just a result of budget mainly. They still helped Jorgensen doing these things. Like Velasco going to test those TT extentions with him. Spending time helping hem wasn't the problem, it's money.

Yeah they try, still I am surprised by the difference in professionalism of both teams. I mean until quite recently a team like Movistar was one of the bigger teams in terms of budget as well, not even that far below a team like Jumbo.

They have lost riders like Valverde, Quintana and Lopez in recent years, which must mean that a more than decent chunck of budget was free to invest. And then still a top prospect has to pay for his own altitude camps, nutritionists (why does he get one outside of the team), masseurs etc.

Maybe budget is one of the reasons, but I think it is too easy to blame it all on the budget. I think it is also partially due to old fashioned choices with most of the teams from southern Europe and France.

And it’s not like a want to ridicule these teams entirely. But in discussions about riders like these moving to teams like Jumbo it is so often said that they choose to do so for the money. But for me I think the big difference is in how professional the environment is.

 

[Sciatic]

Yep, and somehow the teams that aren’t rich are the ones that get blamed .

Masseuses though… that’s just luxury.

It’s interesting to look at this from the U.S. sporting perspective —it’s pretty common for top tier athletes in mainstream U.S. sports to have their own massage therapists, nutritionists, personal trainers, psychologists, etc, etc, outside of the team structure during the off season and to an extent in-season. Of course, top tier athletes in those sports make, what, 20x the salary Jorgensen gets. But maybe he is still influenced by that model?

 

[jmdirt]

It’s interesting to look at this from the U.S. sporting perspective —it’s pretty common for top tier athletes in mainstream U.S. sports to have their own massage therapists, nutritionists, personal trainers, psychologists, etc, etc, outside of the team structure during the off season and to an extent in-season. Of course, top tier athletes in those sports make, what, 20x the salary Jorgensen gets. But maybe he is still influenced by that model?

Other than obviously HUGE exceptions like TB12, NFL/NBA/MLB/NHL athletes have massive team resources that they utilize. They have food prepared by chefs and nutritionist available 15 hours a day. They have multiple tissue manipulators, facilities to speed recovery and repair injuries, strength coaches/state of the art facilities, agility specialists, team psychologists... this list will get really long.

If nothing else, having outside people isn't convenient because these guys spend a big part of their lives at the team facility.

Deshaun Watson might have his own massage therapist, but he is the exception not the rule.

I don't know why he would be influenced by USA pro athletes. Maybe when he was living in Boise, ID he visited the BSU training facilities, but that would have just shown him the amount of resources available to NCAA athletes from a mid-sized college.

Anyway, Movistar (all/most top teams) probably has most of these resources available at their SC, but not on the road where most cyclists live and train. If the team does an altitude camp I assume that some of the resources travel with them. Once they get spread out at races, that's when budget constraints likely start to kick in.

 

[Sciatic]

Other than obviously HUGE exceptions like TB12, NFL/NBA/MLB/NHL athletes have massive team resources that they utilize. They have food prepared by chefs and nutritionist available 15 hours a day. They have multiple tissue manipulators, facilities to speed recovery and repair injuries, strength coaches/state of the art facilities, agility specialists, team psychologists... this list will get really long.

If nothing else, having outside people isn't convenient because these guys spend a big part of their lives at the team facility.

Deshaun Watson might have his own massage therapist, but he is the exception not the rule.

I don't know why he would be influenced by USA pro athletes. Maybe when he was living in Boise, ID he visited the BSU training facilities, but that would have just shown him the amount of resources available to NCAA athletes from a mid-sized college.

Anyway, Movistar (all/most top teams) probably has most of these resources available at their SC, but not on the road where most cyclists live and train. If the team does an altitude camp I assume that some of the resources travel with them. Once they get spread out at races, that's when budget constraints likely start to kick in.

Re: the U.S. sports, you could be right but that's not my impression from what I've read. Most guys are away from their team facilities half the year, and hire their own people (with the gobs of money they have). Here's quotes from a (firewalled) article in "The Athletic" (a NY Times venture) published just 8 days ago, re: Seattle MLB player Jared Kelenic, someone who doesn't have a giant contract:

"He spent most of his winter in Arizona, revamping his swing with Tim Laker, 53, his former hitting coach with the Mariners. Their time together included a brief trip to Pasadena to work with Laker’s mentor, Craig Wallenbrock, 76, the hitting guru. . .
The Mariners maintained their faith in Kelenic and allowed him to seek outside instruction, conceding they might not have all the answers. His agent, Nick Chanock of Wasserman Baseball, provided him with constant guidance and support, culminating in what Mariners general manager Justin Hollander called, “the best ‘agent-ing,’ beyond contract negotiations, I’ve seen in 15 years.
Kelenic put in the work not just with the coaches, but also a sports psychologist who helped him understand he could not be perfect."

'This is it': How Jarred Kelenic adjusted body and mind to live up to the hype

He can identify the exact turning point, the moment he knew: It was during the second week of December, at a batting cage in Pasadena.

theathletic.com

So not a superstar player, but we know he hired 2 private hitting coaches and a psychologist in the off-season. He may have hired other folks but they're not mentioned in the article.

 

[Potomac]

Re: the U.S. sports, you could be right but that's not my impression from what I've read. Most guys are away from their team facilities half the year, and hire their own people (with the gobs of money they have). Here's quotes from a (firewalled) article in "The Athletic" (a NY Times venture) published just 8 days ago, re: Seattle MLB player Jared Kelenic, someone who doesn't have a giant contract:

"He spent most of his winter in Arizona, revamping his swing with Tim Laker, 53, his former hitting coach with the Mariners. Their time together included a brief trip to Pasadena to work with Laker’s mentor, Craig Wallenbrock, 76, the hitting guru. . .
The Mariners maintained their faith in Kelenic and allowed him to seek outside instruction, conceding they might not have all the answers. His agent, Nick Chanock of Wasserman Baseball, provided him with constant guidance and support, culminating in what Mariners general manager Justin Hollander called, “the best ‘agent-ing,’ beyond contract negotiations, I’ve seen in 15 years.
Kelenic put in the work not just with the coaches, but also a sports psychologist who helped him understand he could not be perfect."

'This is it': How Jarred Kelenic adjusted body and mind to live up to the hype

He can identify the exact turning point, the moment he knew: It was during the second week of December, at a batting cage in Pasadena.

theathletic.com

So not a superstar player, but we know he hired 2 private hitting coaches and a psychologist in the off-season. He may have hired other folks but they're not mentioned in the article.

Why the emphasis on noting the age of coaches and mentors?

 

[jmdirt]

Re: the U.S. sports, you could be right but that's not my impression from what I've read. Most guys are away from their team facilities half the year, and hire their own people (with the gobs of money they have). Here's quotes from a (firewalled) article in "The Athletic" (a NY Times venture) published just 8 days ago, re: Seattle MLB player Jared Kelenic, someone who doesn't have a giant contract:

"He spent most of his winter in Arizona, revamping his swing with Tim Laker, 53, his former hitting coach with the Mariners. Their time together included a brief trip to Pasadena to work with Laker’s mentor, Craig Wallenbrock, 76, the hitting guru. . .
The Mariners maintained their faith in Kelenic and allowed him to seek outside instruction, conceding they might not have all the answers. His agent, Nick Chanock of Wasserman Baseball, provided him with constant guidance and support, culminating in what Mariners general manager Justin Hollander called, “the best ‘agent-ing,’ beyond contract negotiations, I’ve seen in 15 years.
Kelenic put in the work not just with the coaches, but also a sports psychologist who helped him understand he could not be perfect."

'This is it': How Jarred Kelenic adjusted body and mind to live up to the hype

He can identify the exact turning point, the moment he knew: It was during the second week of December, at a batting cage in Pasadena.

theathletic.com

So not a superstar player, but we know he hired 2 private hitting coaches and a psychologist in the off-season. He may have hired other folks but they're not mentioned in the article.

I think that is another example of exception to the rule. The are all sorts of specialty coaches for hire out there though if players feel like they need a little extra something.

There are rules pertaining to use of the team facilities/staff during the off season, and many players go home/to warmer climates in the off season so maybe paying for local assistance is easier for the guys who have DEEP pockets.

 

[Sciatic]

Why the emphasis on noting the age of coaches and mentors?

Don’t why—I thought that was strange too.

 

[Sciatic]

I think that is another example of exception to the rule. The are all sorts of specialty coaches for hire out there though if players feel like they need a little extra something.

There are rules pertaining to use of the team facilities/staff during the off season, and many players go home/to warmer climates in the off season so maybe paying for local assistance is easier for the guys who have DEEP pockets.

Hey, this is an example of the kind of thing I’ve read from time to time and since this one was so recent came to mind when we started discussing this. Since folks wondered why Jorgensen did all that on his own the Kelenic came to mind, but I’m not going to argue the point since it sounds like you have more info. Why do you Jorgensen did all that on his own?

 

[jmdirt]

Hey, this is an example of the kind of thing I’ve read from time to time and since this one was so recent came to mind when we started discussing this. Since folks wondered why Jorgensen did all that on his own the Kelenic came to mind, but I’m not going to argue the point since it sounds like you have more info. Why do you Jorgensen did all that on his own?

Because the team didn't provide the resources that he required when and/or where he needed them (not because he has a USA pro sports mindset). I'm pretty sure that he can get what he needs at the SC and on the bus, but that doesn't cover much, if any, of his training/recovering time I assume. Paying his own masseuse makes sense if he doesn't have one provide by the team, but it seems like the team nutritionist, for example, could easily do his job via pick his favorite virtual meeting app or even good old email.

 

[Sciatic]

JMD, I don’t know why you’ve gotten so adamant and smarmy about this. I’m not doubting what you’re saying and you’ve been a good source of info that I’ve learned from in the past.
My was just something that popped into my head and I threw it out there. You thought it was dumb which is just fine since that happens all the time here.

I shared the article to show the type of thing I’ve read (and didn’t just make up out of thin air) occassionaly. Does one (or 10 for the matter) article substantiate something is valid? Of course not. But I always find it useful to at least give an example of what I’m talking about.

Finally, because Jorgensen is not very likely to share publically why he chose (or had no choice but to pay for) those things, all we can do is conjecture. Which most of the time is what folks do on this forum.

 

[Oldermanish]

It’s interesting to look at this from the U.S. sporting perspective —it’s pretty common for top tier athletes in mainstream U.S. sports to have their own massage therapists, nutritionists, personal trainers, psychologists, etc, etc, outside of the team structure during the off season and to an extent in-season. Of course, top tier athletes in those sports make, what, 20x the salary Jorgensen gets. But maybe he is still influenced by that model?

It's less a model than a professional reality. You get the attention you arrange rather than being a part of group therapy and care.
My wife managed the nutrition and some of the training for both an NFL franchise DB and an NBA starting forward. They needed very specific, and different emphasis to get where the team's wanted them to go. It wasn't consistent with each team organization to be that specific and Movistar is reputed to be a bit old school. She also helped some of my former teammates who were budget-challenged on nutrition selections.
Cyclists can get locked into training as the first priority when rest and proper recovery food is what will limit their training effort. Triathletes can be even worse.
Mateo is a smart guy based on what people familiar with him have said (not me, never met him). He's also not that far off what Kuss and McNulty did for their career arc.
It eventually makes for a better rider and longer career, too IMO.

 

[Netserk]

Yep, and somehow the teams that aren’t rich are the ones that get blamed .

Of course, as it is rightly so. It's a competition; it'd be pathetic to blame those who perform better than you for your own lacking. If you're not up to the job, perish.

 

[Nick2413]

Of course, as it is rightly so. It's a competition; it'd be pathetic to blame those who perform better than you for your own lacking. If you're not up to the job, perish.

I’m philosophically with you for the most part. My comment was moreso that blaming a team for not being able to afford better resources is silly. I also think things like salary caps, despite being unfair in a way, make for more entertaining sport.

 

[theyoungest]

I’m philosophically with you for the most part. My comment was moreso that blaming a team for not being able to afford better resources is silly. I also think things like salary caps, despite being unfair in a way, make for more entertaining sport.

But the money isn't the reason why a team like Jumbo is performing better than Movistar. It's actually the opposite. Jumbo were forced to rethink their entire organisation because they didn't have any money. Of course it helps that right now their budget isn't that small anymore, but still the order was performance first, and then the money came.

People keep pointing at the money argument to basically offer an excuse for underperforming teams to keep doing the same. If even the fans think that's the reason, of course there's not pressure on these teams to start doing better.

 

[Oldermanish]

But the money isn't the reason why a team like Jumbo is performing better than Movistar. It's actually the opposite. Jumbo were forced to rethink their entire organisation because they didn't have any money. Of course it helps that right now their budget isn't that small anymore, but still the order was performance first, and then the money came.

People keep pointing at the money argument to basically offer an excuse for underperforming teams to keep doing the same. If even the fans think that's the reason, of course there's not pressure on these teams to start doing better.

I'm not sure it's 180 degrees opposite but JV has had good performers and a well-managed increase in budget. If money alone did it Ineos would win everything.

 

[rallybanana]

Is Matteo Jorgenson now the only rider from the original thread title who has not yet won a grand tour stage?

I guess they all had to win one before he can be allowed win one.

 

[tobydawq]

Is Matteo Jorgenson now the only rider from the original thread title who has not yet won a grand tour stage?

I guess they all had to win one before he can be allowed win one.

There was Peters, Paret-Peintre, Champoissin (who has not won one but his close namesake and more famous rider Champoussin has) and then one more, I think. Who is it I am forgetting?

 

[RedheadDane]

Who is it I am forgetting?

Latour.

 

[Netserk]

There was Peters, Paret-Peintre, Champoissin (who has not won one but his close namesake and more famous rider Champoussin has) and then one more, I think. Who is it I am forgetting?

Matteo Jorgenson is the next Clement Champoissin is the next Aurelien Paret Peintre is the next Nans Peters is the next Pierre Latour

 

[Potomac]

Before the Tour Jordenson was quoted as being all in for Mas. Which is a good thing.

But some commentators/pundits were mentioning has the probable plan B for Movistar before the race.

He lost 14 minutes today. What happened?