Member Suspension Appreciation/Depreciation Thread

[Granville57]

I want to ask a Socratic question here: let us say a new poster joins the forum. Due to posting style, they are thought by some denizens to be a sockpuppet...

Sorry, but I can't take your line of reasoning very seriously. Why? Because time and time and time and time and time...(you get it) again the true sock poppets were embarrassingly obvious by their second or third post (and quite often by their first). I can't think of a single perma-banned-member-to-be who I hadn't spotted as such as soon as they caught my attention.

But maybe that's just me. I must have magical, super powers of perception.

How many different ways can people really be fooled? (I suppose that is yet to be determined).

Or - here is another one. Some people honestly believe the whole Lance Armstrong thing was blown out of proportion - and they have their arguments and convictions. But when they express that, many regulars here respond in a rabid, over-the-top fashion. Do they not deserve, as do the Lance haters, the opportunity to post as well?

I'll say no.

How can that be?

Relax. It goes back a few years ago to when Armstrong used to own the media (CN still hasn't gotten the updated memo). The scales of public perception had been tilted so heavily, for so long, in Armstrong's direction—there was a one ton weight on the Livestrong side. But lo and behold, 12 ounces of counterweight dared to make themselves known on the other side of the scale: The Clinic. But there was this distorted notion, often put forth by the mods themselves, that the only way to have a fair discussion was to give equal weight to each side of the "debate." The flaw in all this (as I've always been eager to point out) was that the very nature of The Clinic was an attempt to offer a counter weight to the already existing, and vastly overcrowded other version of events as spewed forth by the Armstrong spin machine.

To suggest that once those 12 ounces of dissent had been placed on one side of the scale, that another 12 ounces of Livestrong needed to be placed beside it—in order to create some sort of "balance" —was patently absurd. There was already a one ton weight on the other side!

ESPN, Sports Illustrated, VeloNews...take your pick. The list of fellators would go on and on. Anything to make a buck by riding the Cancer Gravy Train. If someone felt to the need share in the LA love-fest, there were countless opportunities and locations to do just that. So if someone were to show up here with a chip on their Maillot Jauned shoulder, I felt no sympathy whatsoever if they got lambasted—nor would I today. They had their day in the sun, on the heavy side of the scale. I suppose it was fun while it lasted.

Accusations by some that The Clinic was only an echo chamber (or trying to be one) were missing the point entirely. It was an unapologetic rally by The Dirty Dozen. And if that meant at times making a lot of noise in the interest of not being drowned out by the 28,000,000 voices on the other side, then so be it.

Don't look for any apologies from me on the matter.

And if some of that still carries over today, even when the cast of characters has (partially) changed? Oh well.



Hey, we didn't start it!





The above post by Granville57 was intended to make a point by offering a personal perspective. In no way is Granville57 assuming the role of spokesperson for, or guardian of, The Clinic. The fictitious mantle of such was temporarily assumed only in the interest of education. This has been a public service announcement by Granville57.

 

[hiero2]

Sorry, but I can't take your line of reasoning very seriously. Why? Because time and time and time and time and time...(you get it) again the true sock poppets were embarrassingly obvious by their second or third post (and quite often by their first). I can't think of a single perma-banned-member-to-be who I hadn't spotted as such as soon as they caught my attention.

But maybe that's just me. I must have magical, super powers of perception.

How many different ways can people really be fooled? (I suppose that is yet to be determined).


I'll say no.

How can that be?

Relax. It goes back a few years ago to when Armstrong used to own the media (CN still hasn't gotten the updated memo). The scales of public perception had been tilted so heavily, for so long, in Armstrong's direction—there was a one ton weight on the Livestrong side. But lo and behold, 12 ounces of counterweight dared to make themselves known on the other side of the scale: The Clinic. But there was this distorted notion, often put forth by the mods themselves, that the only way to have a fair discussion was to give equal weight to each side of the "debate." The flaw in all this (as I've always been eager to point out) was that the very nature of The Clinic was an attempt to offer a counter weight to the already existing, and vastly overcrowded other version of events as spewed forth by the Armstrong spin machine.

To suggest that once those 12 ounces of dissent had been placed on one side of the scale, that another 12 ounces of Livestrong needed to be placed beside it—in order to create some sort of "balance" —was patently absurd. There was already a one ton weight on the other side!

ESPN, Sports Illustrated, VeloNews...take your pick. The list of fellators would go on and on. Anything to make a buck by riding the Cancer Gravy Train. If someone felt to the need share in the LA love-fest, there were countless opportunities and locations to do just that. So if someone were to show up here with a chip on their Maillot Jauned shoulder, I felt no sympathy whatsoever if they got lambasted—nor would I today. They had their day in the sun, on the heavy side of the scale. I suppose it was fun while it lasted.

Accusations by some that The Clinic was only an echo chamber (or trying to be one) were missing the point entirely. It was an unapologetic rally by The Dirty Dozen. And if that meant at times making a lot of noise in the interest of not being drowned out by the 28,000,000 voices on the other side, then so be it.

Don't look for any apologies from me on the matter.

And if some of that still carries over today, even when the cast of characters has (partially) changed? Oh well.



Hey, we didn't start it!





The above post by Granville57 was intended to make a point by offering a personal perspective. In no way is Granville57 assuming the role of spokesperson for, or guardian of, The Clinic. The fictitious mantle of such was temporarily assumed only in the interest of education. This has been a public service announcement by Granville57.

G-57: the disclaimer is brilliant.

The reasoning you can't take seriously is a real life case. And the accusations of sockpuppet were persistent, obnoxious, unwarranted, and disruptive. The accusations were all made by forum regulars, who, like yourself, share a 6th sense about these things.

The Armstrong bit? Yeah, I can see a little "pay-back time" attitude. But automatically labeling everything counter to the ballyhooed Clinic as Armstrong fan-boy is over the top. To label those who cheered LA before the truth was out as demented or deluded is over the top. It is unrealistic, and it is partial. I do not need to say this because "I'm one of them" - because I ain't. But neither am I in the camp that appears to view him as the incarnation of Godwin's Law.

 

[TheGame]

members here, including Brodeal, thehog, RR, blackcat, ChrisE, Dr Mas, Amsterhammer, Scotty SoCal, Boeing, and many more HAVE engaged in purposefully disruptive or obtuse behavior - ipso facto - trolled. Are they then "trolls"?

At times, yes

In many ways the "troll hunters" end up becoming the very thing they are hunting, they engage, bait and wind up the troll further.

Little brother puts a worm in sisters hair, sister punches him in the head, little brother gets punished. Of course, the clever brother puts the worm in his sisters hair without the parents noticing, and the sister gets punished for punching the brother.

Sadly, your trolls lack that basic ability.

 

[TheGame]

Then there is the question of when is a troll not a troll. I registered to "troll" a now dormant member. A member who had an agenda and in my mind was trolling, ie. Spreading misinformation, and arguing to suit his personal grievance. Does me registering to troll a member, who in my opinion is a troll, but was not widely recognized as a troll, make me a troll?

Trollololololol

 

[Granville57]

G-57...is brilliant.

Good post, hiero.

The reasoning you can't take seriously is a real life case.

If you're referring to my man, "e",

........I was never one of the ones.........accusing him........

.............of being.......Polish.


[Troll-dar still intact ]

 

[Granville57]

Does me registering to troll a member, who in my opinion is a troll, but was not widely recognized as a troll, make me a troll?

That all depends. Did you register as "Taxus4a"?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

<snipped for brevity>
Ok. Now, where do we draw the line, at what is specifically aimed at starting arguments, upsetting people, angering people - when ANY disagreement will do all of the above? Where do you draw the line: at "you're full of sh*t"? Or at "you're SO full of sh*t".

You can't.

I believe you can.

See, even if someone has a view that you, me and a majority think is batsh*t crazy - guess what, people are allowed have a view that is crazy.
It does not necessarily mean they have an intent to troll or be disruptive.

And there will always be disagreements - I say Campy, you say Shimano, Mandela, terrorist or humanitarian, Sky dopers or clean?
It doesn't matter until someone starts a) getting personal (you are an idiot) b) exaggerate or lie (Mandela rescued babies on a campy equipped bike and it is why Sky state they do not dope)

The subject should not matter - the content should be scrutinised - indeed my big difficulty during the LA period was I could spot a lot of BS, even in a well presented argument. But it was not my place to assume it was intentional, which is why I would seek clarification.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Yup, trolling is actually easy to define. It is quite simply a post aimed to get a response, to hook the other party, usually emotionally. The hard part is defining when to mod it.

No, that is not trolling. Posting to get a response alone is not trolling, argumentative maybe, but not trolling. In fact, all posts are ultimately designed to get a response, or otherwise what is the point?

Trolling is more specific, generally its aimed at starting arguments, upsetting people, angering people etc. A troll post will usually be either off topic, inflammatory or extraneous. And has the specific intent of either provoking other members, or disrupting on topic discussion.

Wiki is interesting
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

First, hiero, good trollkraft is sooooo much more refined than that. It's easy to take a big hammer approach, but real trollkraft is defined by subtlety. Oh, the troll post may seem obvious, but it's the little details that set good trollkraft apart from horrible trollkraft. Example: The last time BPC came, his name was The Dark Knight. Now, I doubt anyone but me caught on to the brilliance of that name alone. I posted a couple of days before about how he would show up soon. I did it because I knew he's show up if I did, and in a tip of the hat, he chose to reference the Bat Signal, which he recognized I sent up with my post. I can't stand the guy, but that's real trollkraft right there. The rest of his post was easy to pick up on. He's kind of a one trick pony when it comes to the trollkraft of his posts. But that little addition was brilliant. It's sad, I can pick up his posts after a sentence most times...but every once and awhile, he gets it right in the details.

And TheGame, if you have to resort to Wiki to explain trolling, you don't know anything about trolling. Dude. Seriously.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Just read more of the posts on the topic...you guys are cute. Trollkraft isn't about getting people to respond. It's about getting the person you want to respond to respond in the way you want them to respond. To get that, sometimes you can be blatantly obvious, but real trollkraft is a Discovered Attack. It's set up moves ahead.

Real trollkraft is about control.

 

[python]

I might be a terrible mod.

I do however post notifications, and explain my actions and opinions when possible.

I also do work behind the scenes to keep things somewhat on track....as you well know.

So no, this isn't a case of moi being a terrible mod again.

so you are essentially PUBLICLY pointing your finger at one of the fellow mods being 'terrible' ? if so, i'd be personally weary of a mate like that.

i don' t think you or any of the mods are terrible, but some, particularly you, seem too defensive or not doing their home work.

i have no idea why chris e was banned, but consistent with the cn practice it either should have been explained in the appropriate thread, or your defensive post 'not me' should have been cleared with the mod who banned him but chose not to advertise it.

 

[sittingbison]

so you are essentially PUBLICLY pointing your finger at one of the fellow mods being 'terrible' ? if so, i'd be personally weary of a mate like that....

you misinterpret python.

the discussion before was of those issues and the sceptic took the opportunity to accuse me of being a terrible mod.

Am I suggesting those issues are terrible? No I am not, I am taking exception to being falsely accused. I do not have a track history of those things, therefore the accusation is false.

The mod in question can defend their own performance, its nothing to do with me. And the sceptic knows it. And also knew it should be in the mods thread. Goes back to the trolling discussion above

 

[python]

....

The mod in question can defend their own performance, its nothing to do with me. And the sceptic knows it. And also knew it should be in the mods thread. Goes back to the trolling discussion above

what i hilited above was and still is the crux of my post.

i did not misinterpret anything... i did read the skeptic's post and the context before and after...he is likely wrong accusing you of banning chris e. moreover, his inaccurate assumption was likely of personal nature.

my note was about YOU choosing to 'defend yourself' PUBLIC ALLY against 'a mod in question'. iow, pointing a finger at one of your teammates, another mod, PUBLIC ALLY. that you don't see nor appreciate the need for keeping this type of notes more discrete and private or placing the mod team issues above the reflexive 'defending yourself, tells me i'd very weary having you around any of my teams.

you are not a terrible mod. nor selfish. more like, not an exemplary team player.

 

[ebandit]

u n be l i e v a b le

thehog wasn't banned for ignoring repeated warnings.

thehog was banned for going back on promises, commitments s/he made to both Dan and myself more than three times over an extended period.

thehog was under no illusion, it was spelt out very clearly that it was a final opportunity to avoid a ban, and what would transpire if s/he broke said commitment again.

thehog broke said commitment within hours.

U N B E L I E V A B L E

how come hoggy qualifies for such preferable treatment?

other members would be long gone.........but hoggy will be welcomed

back to do exactly the same again

Mark L

 

[Ferminal]

Unbelievable that you think moderating shouldn't be discriminatory.

 

[ebandit]

I'm saying exactly that hoggy should be discriminated against because of
their terrible conduct

completely untrustworthy ...........as I know their lies and described by SB
and by other mods in the suspension thread

Mark L

 

[Race Radio]

Unbelievable that you think moderating shouldn't be discriminatory.

Unbelievable that a member is allowed to break the rules over and over again, be banned for days, weeks, months, and still be allowed to return. To expect a change after a decade of nonsense is insane

Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

-Albert Einstein

 

[BroDeal]

Unbelievable that a member is allowed to break the rules over and over again, be banned for days, weeks, months, and still be allowed to return. To expect a change after a decade of nonsense is insane

Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results

-Albert Einstein

Inanity: Posting the same thing over and over again and expecting an interesting forum.

-Albert Deal

Thehog is at least fun to read.

 

[kingjr]

Thehog is at least fun to read.

For you maybe but for me who mostly reads for information and doesn't post much he's just terribly obnoxious. His posts have exactly zero value.

 

[pmcg76]

Inanity: Posting the same thing over and over again and expecting an interesting forum.

-Albert Deal

Thehog is at least fun to read.

You ripping on Benotti and sniper here or something

 

[hiero2]

First, hiero, good trollkraft is sooooo much more refined than that. It's easy to take a big hammer approach, but real trollkraft is defined by subtlety. Oh, the troll post may seem obvious, but it's the little details that set good trollkraft apart from horrible trollkraft. Example: The last time BPC came, his name was The Dark Knight. Now, I doubt anyone but me caught on to the brilliance of that name alone. I posted a couple of days before about how he would show up soon. I did it because I knew he's show up if I did, and in a tip of the hat, he chose to reference the Bat Signal, which he recognized I sent up with my post. I can't stand the guy, but that's real trollkraft right there. The rest of his post was easy to pick up on. He's kind of a one trick pony when it comes to the trollkraft of his posts. But that little addition was brilliant. It's sad, I can pick up his posts after a sentence most times...but every once and awhile, he gets it right in the details.

And TheGame, if you have to resort to Wiki to explain trolling, you don't know anything about trolling. Dude. Seriously.

Just read more of the posts on the topic...you guys are cute. Trollkraft isn't about getting people to respond. It's about getting the person you want to respond to respond in the way you want them to respond. To get that, sometimes you can be blatantly obvious, but real trollkraft is a Discovered Attack. It's set up moves ahead.

Real trollkraft is about control.

CHEWIE, my man! I'm sorry, you must have felt left out when I forgot your name in my little list of trolling members!

You are SO right about everything! Especially when you say GOOD trollkraft! For many of you it is such an artform. But you've got the motivation down nicely.

You know, I did say that there must be a heaven for muckrakers. Find me a way to say that with greater panache. It needs to be more obvious while remaining subtle. I don't have it in me today. You DO know what I'm talkin' 'bout, right?

 

[hiero2]

At times, yes

In many ways the "troll hunters" end up becoming the very thing they are hunting, they engage, bait and wind up the troll further.

Little brother puts a worm in sisters hair, sister punches him in the head, little brother gets punished. Of course, the clever brother puts the worm in his sisters hair without the parents noticing, and the sister gets punished for punching the brother.

Sadly, your trolls lack that basic ability.

Hmmm - do you intend to say that MY trolling lacks that ability? Or are you saying that the forum trolls in general lack that ability? If the former, <sigh>, oh, well! If the latter, I have to think you haven't been reading this thread. We have posts here from top-level, "Good Trollkraft" trolls! The artsiest of the subtle art! Graduates of the school of Sophist! Able to argue there way out of a whole store full of wet paper bags!

But the arguing kids? I like that parallel.

Good post, hiero.


If you're referring to my man, "e",

........I was never one of the ones.........accusing him........

.............of being.......Polish.


[Troll-dar still intact ]

Nyah. Troll-dar gone, buddy. Not even close. But hey, you just keep on thinking its working. No problems, mate!

 

[Cal_Joe]

Just read more of the posts on the topic...you guys are cute. Trollkraft isn't about getting people to respond. It's about getting the person you want to respond to respond in the way you want them to respond. To get that, sometimes you can be blatantly obvious, but real trollkraft is a Discovered Attack. It's set up moves ahead.

Real trollkraft is about control.

First rule of Trollkraft - you never discuss Trollkraft.

Epic fail on your part.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

First rule of Trollkraft - you never discuss Trollkraft.

Epic fail on your part.

Unless my post wasn't about revealing secrets of Trollkraft.

They really need a fish on smiley here.

And always remember, Tyler Durden talked to lots of people about Fight Club.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Unless my post wasn't about revealing secrets of Trollkraft.

They really need a fish on smiley here.

And always remember, Tyler Durden talked to lots of people about Fight Club.

It's kind of funny how all these ex-Lance trolls are turning up trying to act like they are a lot smarter than they seemed a couple or three years ago.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

It's kind of funny how all these ex-Lance trolls are turning up trying to act like they are a lot smarter than they seemed a couple or three years ago.

There's one over on the Lance thread, who has been wrong on so many things that I can count on two fingers and a little toe the number of times he's been right, talking about how right he's been...Bizarro World.