Men Elite Road Race - UCI RWC Doha 2016

[yaco]

This is becoming a strange thread - I rate riders on their ability and displayed talents - To use any other extraneous measure is not relevant to a discussion about a rider's performance - This should be reserved to other parts of the forum.

 

[Mr.White]

Re: Re:

And you should stay in the future too. The guy is hell of a rider (but you didn't argue he's not), and a really interesting character, but I guess you can't see that for some reasons. So maybe the best thing is to avoid threads about him. Maybe time will change your opinion...

See, this is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about.

Of course I didn't argue he's not a hell of a rider, that would be really foolish. Judging his behaviour or his character is a lot more subjective than judging his riding skills, which are objectively among the greatest of his generation.

But what you're basically saying is, "I don't like your opinion, you shouldn't voice it because you're wrong, and if you're lucky you'll get fixed in the future." Whereas everybody queuing up to verbally fellate Sagan, that's fine, never gets boring.

Most of the people who don't like Sagan and have taken less flak about it than me have already ceased commenting on anything regarding him because it's just not worth being swamped by his fans' incredulity. I keep being asked (sometimes pretty aggressively) to justify myself, and each time I do, I'm either told I'm wrong and should shut up, or further explanation of the justification is demanded because other posters disagree with it.

Just because somebody is an interesting character doesn't necessarily mean that that character is universally positive. Walter White on Breaking Bad is an interesting character, for example, so is Tony Soprano, so is Patrick Bateman. I don't like Sagan's character, and while RedheadDane points out he has grown up some, from what I've seen I still think he has plenty to do, but also I see less of the new mature Sagan because I try to pay him less attention to avoid these arguments - just like those who have done so more successfully than me as Sagan's fans stage a successful (if inadvertent) quest to silence the criticism.

And really, Michael Albasini may have done a lot to rehab his behaviour after being caught racially abusing Kévin Reza a couple of years ago, but that doesn't mean we should just forget about it and pretend it never happened when talking about him in the future (as I've been told to do before), because it should never have happened in the first place. Sagan can't change who he was, but I don't see why it's not allowed to let that play into how we perceive him.

No, no. You mistakenly interpreted what I meant to say. It's not about who's wrong or who's right, everybody is entitled to his opinion. I was just trying to say that I notice you're uncomfortable with this Sagan theme. It seems to me that you don't like to write about him, it's noticeable. Just like it's noticeable when you like to write about some subject/theme, it is joy to read. That's all.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Re:

This is becoming a strange thread - I rate riders on their ability and displayed talents - To use any other extraneous measure is not relevant to a discussion about a rider's performance - This should be reserved to other parts of the forum.

Cycling ,just as life, would be incredible dull if it was just about "the" performance. So yes, a cyclist character etc belongs to a tread about professional cycling.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

This is becoming a strange thread - I rate riders on their ability and displayed talents - To use any other extraneous measure is not relevant to a discussion about a rider's performance - This should be reserved to other parts of the forum.

Cycling ,just as life, would be incredible dull if it was just about "the" performance. So yes, a cyclist character etc belongs to a tread about professional cycling.

We'll have to agree to disagree about this - I see no red flags in relation to Sagan's behaviour.

 

[climb4fun]

Re: Re:

So I guess you've never said or done anything that you didn't regret. Seems like maybe you're a little cold hearted. Everyone says and does some pretty stupid things in their life. Even you. There does come a time where letting go is best. Imagine if all your friends held everything thing against you for the rest of your life.

Notwithstanding the double negative that suggests I've regretted literally everything I've said and done, there is a limit.

I can categorically state that I have not called a black man a "lazy n****r" to their face. Michael Albasini has. Yes, I hold that against him. People want to make the "he made mistakes when he was young" argument to excuse Sagan's self-serving "look at me" antics, but you can't make that argument with Albasini, he was 33.

And at the end of the day, RedheadDane asked: "So what if he's clearly pretty extroverted and likes attention?" in respect of Sagan.

Well, so nothing. But I don't like people who are like that, and I find him a very extreme example of it. If he emerged on the scene now I still wouldn't like him, because of that. I may not hate him as much as I do, because the clamour for attention is a) less desperate, because he's now managed to get the big wins that justify the hype, so people pay attention to him regardless and he doesn't have to do such stupid things like the green dye on the podium and the taking focus away from race winners and onto himself now that he IS the race winner, and b) manifesting itself in less disagreeable ways, but I still wouldn't like him.

And being repeatedly told to justify my stance on him in passive-aggressive manners and challenged on every assertion with an attitude that questions the sheer gall, the temerity, the outright cheek that I show in not loving Sagan doesn't make him more agreeable to me, just as what you see as my stubborn refusal to forgive and forget doesn't make him less agreeable to his fans. It just makes his fans look worse in my eyes, because while many just accept and move on (as I've tried to do a couple of times), these threads always get repetitive because there's always some that either take delight in gloating and needling me until I react, or feel the need to interrogate me on my reasons, but won't accept any reason I give. Just as I'm sure repeating the same points and not letting go doesn't make me look any better in yours.

I feel you.Winning does not define "winner". Mike Tyson was the end of boxing for me.

When I was "playing" sports as a boy sportsmanship was very high. Now not so much.

 

[The Principal Sheep]

Re: Re:

climb4fun
I feel you.Winning does not define "winner". Mike Tyson was the end of boxing for me.

When I was "playing" sports as a boy sportsmanship was very high. Now not so much.

I presume you mean post 1991 Tyson as before that he was one of the greatest heavyweight boxers of all time and even if he spoke with menance his skill was sublime.

yaco
We'll have to agree to disagree about this - I see no red flags in relation to Sagan's behaviour.

Oh I agree with LS that there's been a lot to dislike about Sagan, however I try and stay away from anything to do with him that isn't happening on the road so I can still appreaciate his talent without being reminded of his previous (perhaps still current) character flaws.

 

[Oude Geuze]

So happy about Sagan winning, its awsome to see a guy with his talents and versatility in the rainbow jersey. Loved the fact that Boonen got third, awsome rider! Would have liked to see a norwegian at the podium though, thought they did very well throughout the day, but then again I'm biased. EBH *** up for a second worlds in a row, hopefully it will be better in Bergen (Sagans third would be awsome as well

 

[Monte]

Re:

So happy about Sagan winning, its awsome to see a guy with his talents and versatility in the rainbow jersey. Loved the fact that Boonen got third, awsome rider! Would have liked to see a norwegian at the podium though, thought they did very well throughout the day, but then again I'm biased. EBH **** up for a second worlds in a row, hopefully it will be better in Bergen (Sagans third would be awsome as well

Its always good to see the best rider in the Jersey. Sagan will not win in Bergen next year though, cause the peloton wont let him win again; simple.

 

[robin440]

valverde will win next year