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Moondance said:Menchov looked strong and alert today in the early going of todays stage while Sanchez was hurting badly.
I would say Menchov will take this quite handily. He'll get some time up the Tourmalet on Thursday (between 30s and a minute I warrant) and will club Samu like a baby seal in the TT.
The Hitch said:Samu has been better than Menchov in the mountains.
Nickbeam said:i can't agree with that. if we talk about the stage 9 - yes, definitely, samu was better there. but Denis looks really fresher in the pyrenees. he even managed to stay with samu on the descent![]()
The Hitch said:Ahem, Samu was the last one to stay with Conti and Schleck on their tango on the Madeline. He finished 40 seconds ahead of Menchov on the Madeline. 10 on the morzine.
He has been better.
And Samu made it clear before hand that he wasnt going to kill himself on the descent because he wanted to save energy for the grueling days ahead.
Though why "Menchov managed to stay with samu on the descent" (ie they finished together) is evidence of Menchov being better in the mountains i dont know.
Nickbeam said:i said, he looks fresher.
Nickbeam said:i can't agree with that. if we talk about the stage 9 - yes, definitely, samu was better there. but Denis looks really fresher in the pyrenees. he even managed to stay with samu on the descentThe Hitch said:Samu has been better than Menchov in the mountains.![]()
The Hitch said:"Menchov managed to stay with samu on the descent" (ie they finished together) is evidence of Menchov being better in the mountains i dont know.
The 10 secs in Morzine are meaningless. Contador lost 10 secs as well. And after the Madeleine Menchov said he didn't feel so great after the rest day. Ever since he has been looking stronger than Samu, at least in my book.The Hitch said:Ahem, Samu was the last one to stay with Conti and Schleck on their tango on the Madeline. He finished 40 seconds ahead of Menchov on the Madeline. 10 on the morzine.
Dekker_Tifosi said:The way Sanchez is going now, I think advantage Menchov.
Nickbeam said:Man, i guess we had hundreds of posts here, where people said "samu will drop Denis on the descent" "menchov will fall off his bike as usual" etc.
ye, Samu wasn't pushing hard, but still, all these people were wrong. when i read this forum, or the russian one, i always see the words "menchov will crack on one day", "menchov will lose time somewhere, where usually people don't do it" etc. but hey, Denis is still 4th, and so far he haven't done any mistakes. it means Denis is motivated and focused like it was at last years Giro.
theyoungest said:The 10 secs in Morzine are meaningless. Contador lost 10 secs as well. And after the Madeleine Menchov said he didn't feel so great after the rest day. Ever since he has been looking stronger than Samu, at least in my book.
After the last rest day in last year's Giro he never was quite the same, so let's hope for Denis that was a one-off.
Arnout said:That's a good point, the day after the rest day in the Alpes Menchov was way worse than Sanchez. Sanchez is normally very good after rest days, Menchov seems to be not so good.
Anyway, Sanchez said after the stage he was too far back when the crazy riding started and that he decided to follow his own pace because he knew he could come back nearing the summit and in the descent. He said he wasn't feeling very well at the start but was feeling very good again towards the end of the day and that he has lots of confidence for the remaining days.
The Hitch said:great news.
I think Sammy knows what he is talking about, and knows his form so hopefully he will be able to stick it to them on the col du Tourmalet
Arnout said:If there's one rider who knows how to handle a climb when he is not feeling great, its Sanchez. Remember the Vuelta last year, where on one stage (the Evans mechanical stage) after 10km of climbing he was buried, 1:30 down and after 25 km's of climbing, at the finish, was 20 seconds down.
I wouldn't believe this kind of talk from most riders, but Sanchez has proved numerous time he has the amazing ability to recover during a stage (remember the Tour 2008, where he cracked on the Tourmalet but was, as far as I can remember the fastest on the Hautacam which followed after the Tourmalet. Or that same Tour, where on l'Alpe d'Huez he couldn't follow the leaders for 80% of the climb and afterwards managing to come home first of the favorites after Sastre).
nesocip said:Very nice. I tried to explain that to a guy today on that Stage topic. I dont consider Samu getting dropped today "a crack". Im pretty confident he would have stayed with Menchov if there was a MTF at the end of today's stage. That is how he functions, stronger and stronger as the stage progresses (relative to other competitors of course).
However, i see Menchov and him coming together on the Tourmalet +/- 10 seconds in either's favor. And realistically, Menchov should have no problems overtaking those 3-23 seconds in the TT, and finishing on the podium. Also, i have a feeling Andy will put around a minute into both of them on the Tourmalet, and thus secure his 2nd place.
Id love to see Samu on the podium, but realistically he squandered that chance away when he didnt bomb down that descent yesterday. He could have taken just enough on Menchov and Andy to challenge maybe even for 2nd place.
nesocip said:It costs less energy then to attack uphill, since you get some seconds on your technique as well. Now he has to attack on the Tourmalet if he wants the podium, and sadly i dont see it happening.
not really, at least in the classic definition of energy - kcal or joules. i'll agree if you meant nervous energy.The Hitch said:Going fast down a descend isnt something you just magically pull out of the bag. It costs energy. lots of energy. Samu said before that he wouldnt go fast down it, because he knew the 2 stages after it were much harder, and the energy spent getting 20 seconds on menchov on the descent, could very well cost him minutes on the hcs.
python said:not really, at least in the classic definition of energy - kcal or joules. i'll agree if you meant nervous energy.
but either way, samu had risk in mind, not energy. risking means crashing or getting flats and losing everything too early. samu and menchov are about even in climbing whilst menchov is obviously fresher.
i dont see either interfiling with andy-berto dogfight but i could be wrong.
python said:not really, at least in the classic definition of energy - kcal or joules. i'll agree if you meant nervous energy.
but either way, samu had risk in mind, not energy. risking means crashing or getting flats and losing everything too early. samu and menchov are about even in climbing whilst menchov is obviously fresher.
i dont see either interfiling with andy-berto dogfight but i could be wrong.
nesocip said:Look, im an Euskaltel guy through and through, since the days of Laiseka (when i started watching cycling). But one has to admit Sanchez (or Galdeano) made two very bad tactical decisions on this tour. First dragging Andy up the Morzine practically GIFTING him the stage, and not using superior descending skills on yesterday's stage, which in this moment feels like losing the podium spot. So a stage and probably GC podium lost because of nothing but tactics.
For an Euskaltel fan that is pretty sad, after years of watching ****ing Mayo get dropped on the first climb of the tour year after year, Astarloza positive, and Haimar Zubeldia's magnetic personality winning him 3 camera shots and 2 mentions on Eurosport in his 4 or 5 top 10 GC finishes.
Dekker_Tifosi said:In the Alps Menchov wasn't way worse after the rest day then in the pre-rest day mountain stages.
Just the same, not top, level.
He only got better after that. So beware, you might be living more on hope than fact Arnout