Menchov vs. Sanchez...the battle for 3rd

[tifosa]

The rest day is going to be both a mental and physical challenge for all contenders.

My wish is for Menchov is to win. In Paris.

It could happen. It's racing. You never know.

I'm so over the Schleck-Contador thing. Bring on Menchov and Samu!

 

[Bala Verde]

Menchov looked strong and alert today in the early going of todays stage while Sanchez was hurting badly.

I would say Menchov will take this quite handily. He'll get some time up the Tourmalet on Thursday (between 30s and a minute I warrant) and will club Samu like a baby seal in the TT.

Poor seabert (?)....

In any case, Menchov must smell blood and should at least want to test the legs of Sanchez after the rest day. (Obviously if he feels good enough himself.)

Bring it on, Sphinx!

 

[Nickbeam]

Samu has been better than Menchov in the mountains.

i can't agree with that. if we talk about the stage 9 - yes, definitely, samu was better there. but Denis looks really fresher in the pyrenees. he even managed to stay with samu on the descent

 

[Gcraenen]

Lets not take anything for granted.
I have not been that impressed with Contador's TT performances this year.
Also, Schleck is TT champion of his country, albeit Luxembourg. He placed first out of a total of 3 competitors if I remember correctly.

Am I being too optimistic?

 

[The Hitch]

i can't agree with that. if we talk about the stage 9 - yes, definitely, samu was better there. but Denis looks really fresher in the pyrenees. he even managed to stay with samu on the descent

Ahem, Samu was the last one to stay with Conti and Schleck on their tango on the Madeline. He finished 40 seconds ahead of Menchov on the Madeline. 10 on the morzine.

He has been better.

And Samu made it clear before hand that he wasnt going to kill himself on the descent because he wanted to save energy for the grueling days ahead.
Though why "Menchov managed to stay with samu on the descent" (ie they finished together) is evidence of Menchov being better in the mountains i dont know.

 

[Nickbeam]

Ahem, Samu was the last one to stay with Conti and Schleck on their tango on the Madeline. He finished 40 seconds ahead of Menchov on the Madeline. 10 on the morzine.

He has been better.

And Samu made it clear before hand that he wasnt going to kill himself on the descent because he wanted to save energy for the grueling days ahead.
Though why "Menchov managed to stay with samu on the descent" (ie they finished together) is evidence of Menchov being better in the mountains i dont know.

i said, he looks fresher. samu dropped out on the stage 14, when Ges and Denis attacked, or i am wrong again? Samu had some problems today, or am i wrong again? or maybe he was just playing a little, to figure out, is he capable of coming back to the fav's group? that's what i mean, when i say "fresher". and i guess, i told you, that Samu was better on the stage 9. stage 8 means nothing, it's Denis-style, he doesn't attack to much.

 

[The Hitch]

i said, he looks fresher.

THis is what i was responding to.

Samu has been better than Menchov in the mountains.

i can't agree with that. if we talk about the stage 9 - yes, definitely, samu was better there. but Denis looks really fresher in the pyrenees. he even managed to stay with samu on the descent

I said that Samu has been better in the mountains,

you said you dont agree

I showed time gaps which show he has been better.


As to who has been fresher, yes Menchov, but thats a different argument.

 

[Nickbeam]

"Menchov managed to stay with samu on the descent" (ie they finished together) is evidence of Menchov being better in the mountains i dont know.

Man, i guess we had hundreds of posts here, where people said "samu will drop Denis on the descent" "menchov will fall off his bike as usual" etc.
ye, Samu wasn't pushing hard, but still, all these people were wrong. when i read this forum, or the russian one, i always see the words "menchov will crack on one day", "menchov will lose time somewhere, where usually people don't do it" etc. but hey, Denis is still 4th, and so far he haven't done any mistakes. it means Denis is motivated and focused like it was at last years Giro.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

The way Sanchez is going now, I think advantage Menchov.

 

[theyoungest]

Ahem, Samu was the last one to stay with Conti and Schleck on their tango on the Madeline. He finished 40 seconds ahead of Menchov on the Madeline. 10 on the morzine.

The 10 secs in Morzine are meaningless. Contador lost 10 secs as well. And after the Madeleine Menchov said he didn't feel so great after the rest day. Ever since he has been looking stronger than Samu, at least in my book.

After the last rest day in last year's Giro he never was quite the same, so let's hope for Denis that was a one-off.

 

[Oldman]

The way Sanchez is going now, I think advantage Menchov.

Stage 17 could be alot of tactical fun for fans. Either of these guys can change the fates of 1st and 2nd place as well as their own. Could make for the best Tour stage we've seen for awhile.

 

[The Hitch]

Man, i guess we had hundreds of posts here, where people said "samu will drop Denis on the descent" "menchov will fall off his bike as usual" etc.
ye, Samu wasn't pushing hard, but still, all these people were wrong. when i read this forum, or the russian one, i always see the words "menchov will crack on one day", "menchov will lose time somewhere, where usually people don't do it" etc. but hey, Denis is still 4th, and so far he haven't done any mistakes. it means Denis is motivated and focused like it was at last years Giro.

and 100 posters on here said cadel evans would win the giro and 100 posts here said alberto contador would have a 10 minute lead by now and 100 posts said that the madeline would be a boring stage etc.

For me an interview with Samu sanchez before the stage where he says he wont try to create a gap on the descent is far more important to the argument of "did Samu Sanchez go for it" than 590 posts by the worlds top 100 cycling journalists, speculating that he will have a go and joking that menchov will fall of his bike, ever would

+ staying with Samu on a descent reveals no more about Menchovs climbing skills, then staying with cav on a sprint would.

does staying with the peloton on the tourmalet today make hushovd a super climber? no because no one was attacking. Similarly its no great feat to stay with Samu on the descent if he is not attacking,and going down conservatively.


(all in all a good 1000th post, and to celebrate, if you add all the numbers in the post together, it adds to 1000)

 

[Arnout]

The 10 secs in Morzine are meaningless. Contador lost 10 secs as well. And after the Madeleine Menchov said he didn't feel so great after the rest day. Ever since he has been looking stronger than Samu, at least in my book.

After the last rest day in last year's Giro he never was quite the same, so let's hope for Denis that was a one-off.

That's a good point, the day after the rest day in the Alpes Menchov was way worse than Sanchez. Sanchez is normally very good after rest days, Menchov seems to be not so good.

Anyway, Sanchez said after the stage he was too far back when the crazy riding started and that he decided to follow his own pace because he knew he could come back nearing the summit and in the descent. He said he wasn't feeling very well at the start but was feeling very good again towards the end of the day and that he has lots of confidence for the remaining days.

 

[The Hitch]

That's a good point, the day after the rest day in the Alpes Menchov was way worse than Sanchez. Sanchez is normally very good after rest days, Menchov seems to be not so good.

Anyway, Sanchez said after the stage he was too far back when the crazy riding started and that he decided to follow his own pace because he knew he could come back nearing the summit and in the descent. He said he wasn't feeling very well at the start but was feeling very good again towards the end of the day and that he has lots of confidence for the remaining days.

great news.

I think Sammy knows what he is talking about, and knows his form so hopefully he will be able to stick it to them on the col du Tourmalet

 

[Arnout]

great news.

I think Sammy knows what he is talking about, and knows his form so hopefully he will be able to stick it to them on the col du Tourmalet

If there's one rider who knows how to handle a climb when he is not feeling great, its Sanchez. Remember the Vuelta last year, where on one stage (the Evans mechanical stage) after 10km of climbing he was buried, 1:30 down and after 25 km's of climbing, at the finish, was 20 seconds down.

I wouldn't believe this kind of talk from most riders, but Sanchez has proved numerous time he has the amazing ability to recover during a stage (remember the Tour 2008, where he cracked on the Tourmalet but was, as far as I can remember the fastest on the Hautacam which followed after the Tourmalet. Or that same Tour, where on l'Alpe d'Huez he couldn't follow the leaders for 80% of the climb and afterwards managing to come home first of the favorites after Sastre).

 

[nesocip]

If there's one rider who knows how to handle a climb when he is not feeling great, its Sanchez. Remember the Vuelta last year, where on one stage (the Evans mechanical stage) after 10km of climbing he was buried, 1:30 down and after 25 km's of climbing, at the finish, was 20 seconds down.

I wouldn't believe this kind of talk from most riders, but Sanchez has proved numerous time he has the amazing ability to recover during a stage (remember the Tour 2008, where he cracked on the Tourmalet but was, as far as I can remember the fastest on the Hautacam which followed after the Tourmalet. Or that same Tour, where on l'Alpe d'Huez he couldn't follow the leaders for 80% of the climb and afterwards managing to come home first of the favorites after Sastre).

Very nice. I tried to explain that to a guy today on that Stage topic. I dont consider Samu getting dropped today "a crack". Im pretty confident he would have stayed with Menchov if there was a MTF at the end of today's stage. That is how he functions, stronger and stronger as the stage progresses (relative to other competitors of course).

However, i see Menchov and him coming together on the Tourmalet +/- 10 seconds in either's favor. And realistically, Menchov should have no problems overtaking those 3-23 seconds in the TT, and finishing on the podium. Also, i have a feeling Andy will put around a minute into both of them on the Tourmalet, and thus secure his 2nd place.

Id love to see Samu on the podium, but realistically he squandered that chance away when he didnt bomb down that descent yesterday. He could have taken just enough on Menchov and Andy to challenge maybe even for 2nd place.

 

[The Hitch]

Very nice. I tried to explain that to a guy today on that Stage topic. I dont consider Samu getting dropped today "a crack". Im pretty confident he would have stayed with Menchov if there was a MTF at the end of today's stage. That is how he functions, stronger and stronger as the stage progresses (relative to other competitors of course).

However, i see Menchov and him coming together on the Tourmalet +/- 10 seconds in either's favor. And realistically, Menchov should have no problems overtaking those 3-23 seconds in the TT, and finishing on the podium. Also, i have a feeling Andy will put around a minute into both of them on the Tourmalet, and thus secure his 2nd place.

Id love to see Samu on the podium, but realistically he squandered that chance away when he didnt bomb down that descent yesterday. He could have taken just enough on Menchov and Andy to challenge maybe even for 2nd place.

Going fast down a descend isnt something you just magically pull out of the bag. It costs energy. lots of energy. Samu said before that he wouldnt go fast down it, because he knew the 2 stages after it were much harder, and the energy spent getting 20 seconds on menchov on the descent, could very well cost him minutes on the hcs.

 

[nesocip]

It costs less energy then to attack uphill, since you get some seconds on your technique as well. Now he has to attack on the Tourmalet if he wants the podium, and sadly i dont see it happening.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

In the Alps Menchov wasn't way worse after the rest day then in the pre-rest day mountain stages.
Just the same, not top, level.

He only got better after that. So beware, you might be living more on hope than fact Arnout

 

[The Hitch]

It costs less energy then to attack uphill, since you get some seconds on your technique as well. Now he has to attack on the Tourmalet if he wants the podium, and sadly i dont see it happening.

I wouldnt write him off. Menchov may be coming into form, or he might not. Samu has been 3rd strongest in the mountains so far. This is his terrain. He could be feeling good for this, and could outclimb menchov yet.

 

[python]

Going fast down a descend isnt something you just magically pull out of the bag. It costs energy. lots of energy. Samu said before that he wouldnt go fast down it, because he knew the 2 stages after it were much harder, and the energy spent getting 20 seconds on menchov on the descent, could very well cost him minutes on the hcs.

not really, at least in the classic definition of energy - kcal or joules. i'll agree if you meant nervous energy.

but either way, samu had risk in mind, not energy. risking means crashing or getting flats and losing everything too early. samu and menchov are about even in climbing whilst menchov is obviously fresher.

i dont see either interfiling with andy-berto dogfight but i could be wrong.

 

[The Hitch]

not really, at least in the classic definition of energy - kcal or joules. i'll agree if you meant nervous energy.

but either way, samu had risk in mind, not energy. risking means crashing or getting flats and losing everything too early. samu and menchov are about even in climbing whilst menchov is obviously fresher.

i dont see either interfiling with andy-berto dogfight but i could be wrong.

Really??

He visibly indicated after almost catching Conti and Schleck on the descent that the descent had tired him out too much to get them on the flat.

Similarly Arroyo also wasted too much energy on the mortirolo descent, while basso and co took it easier, so once the road went back slightly uphill, arroyo had no energy left to keep up and lost all his time.

Happens all the time. To go fast these guys sprint down descents, then break and have to start momentum all from the start. That tires you out.

 

[nesocip]

Look, im an Euskaltel guy through and through, since the days of Laiseka (when i started watching cycling). But one has to admit Sanchez (or Galdeano) made two very bad tactical decisions on this tour. First dragging Andy up the Morzine practically GIFTING him the stage, and not using superior descending skills on yesterday's stage, which in this moment feels like losing the podium spot. So a stage and probably GC podium lost because of nothing but tactics.

For an Euskaltel fan that is pretty sad, after years of watching ****ing Mayo get dropped on the first climb of the tour year after year, Astarloza positive, and Haimar Zubeldia's magnetic personality winning him 3 camera shots and 2 mentions on Eurosport in his 4 or 5 top 10 GC finishes.

 

[Arnout]

not really, at least in the classic definition of energy - kcal or joules. i'll agree if you meant nervous energy.

but either way, samu had risk in mind, not energy. risking means crashing or getting flats and losing everything too early. samu and menchov are about even in climbing whilst menchov is obviously fresher.

i dont see either interfiling with andy-berto dogfight but i could be wrong.

Yeah it does. Remember the descent of the Madeleine? Sanchez descended like mad, closed down 45 seconds or something on Schleck en Contador and was exhausted. The last 10 seconds were too much (if he closed them down his podium spot would be within reach by the way). Look at the descent yesterday, he freewheeled while Contador and Menchov were giving it all. He could go even faster, but to gain 20+ seconds (a mere handful) would've costed him so much more energy. What's more, he helped Contador, and that's something Contador might remember, for example on the way to the Tourmalet.

Look, im an Euskaltel guy through and through, since the days of Laiseka (when i started watching cycling). But one has to admit Sanchez (or Galdeano) made two very bad tactical decisions on this tour. First dragging Andy up the Morzine practically GIFTING him the stage, and not using superior descending skills on yesterday's stage, which in this moment feels like losing the podium spot. So a stage and probably GC podium lost because of nothing but tactics.

For an Euskaltel fan that is pretty sad, after years of watching ****ing Mayo get dropped on the first climb of the tour year after year, Astarloza positive, and Haimar Zubeldia's magnetic personality winning him 3 camera shots and 2 mentions on Eurosport in his 4 or 5 top 10 GC finishes.

Igor is the general manager this year, his brother Alvaro and some other guys are in the cars. But hey, I am used to tactical failures and accept it. Part of Euskaltel.

 

[Arnout]

In the Alps Menchov wasn't way worse after the rest day then in the pre-rest day mountain stages.
Just the same, not top, level.

He only got better after that. So beware, you might be living more on hope than fact Arnout

I know. Facts are not important, its how you perceive them. And after the numerous failures by Mayo I accept everything that happens in cycling, either good or bad. I cannot change anything about it, but I can keep my hopes high

On another note, the prologue of Menchov was less than impressive. What are the chances he sacrificed TT abilities to gain on the mountainslopes?