Mental doping?

[Willy_Voet]

Does the use of a sports psychologist qualify as artificial performance enhancement? Do you need a back-dated TUE if caught using one in trace amounts? What if your "mental visualization boosts" your hematocrit to 55 or 60?

"Mental visualisation boosts Fédrigo’s potential"

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mental-visualisation-boosts-fedrigos-potential

 

[Cerberus]

Does the use of a sports psychologist qualify as artificial performance enhancement? Do you need a back-dated TUE if caught using one in trace amounts? What if your "mental visualization boosts" your hematocrit to 55 or 60?

"Mental visualisation boosts Fédrigo’s potential"

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mental-visualisation-boosts-fedrigos-potential

And what if "mental visualization boosts" made you sprout wings and fly? The possibilities are endless!

 

[buckwheat]

Does the use of a sports psychologist qualify as artificial performance enhancement? Do you need a back-dated TUE if caught using one in trace amounts? What if your "mental visualization boosts" your hematocrit to 55 or 60?

"Mental visualisation boosts Fédrigo’s potential"

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mental-visualisation-boosts-fedrigos-potential

does anyone have a natural hct of 55?

 

[gslater]

But Aquaman, you can't marry Wonder Woman... you're from different worlds...

Wait, are tactics performance enhancing as well? Now you guys are just confusing me.

Graham

 

[David Suro]

All sarcasm and joking aside, this is an interesting topic.

We frequently hear about riders having problems with confidence or showing mental fragility.

Psychoactive medications such as mood stabilizers, anti-depressants, or attention enhancers might lead to an improvement in performance for those riders.

I understand that batters in major league baseball frequently ise drugs such a ritalin to help them focus on the pitches. Totally different skill set, I understand, but there is a precedent for "mental doping" in professional sports.

 

[Willy_Voet]

does anyone have a natural hct of 55?

Yes. Well, only if I have severe dehydration. And those vials of EPO are for my dog, I mean horse, I mean mother-in-law.

 

[ergmonkey]

If you want to have a discussion about the classical mind/body problem, you're probably better off heading to the theater to see Inception--or re-watching The Matrix--and then letting your quasi-philosophical discussion jump off from there.

As for the technicalities of doping, have a look at the banned substances and methods list. Either it's covered or it's not. If it works and it's not on the list, you're a fool not to do it (whatever "it" happens to be--therapists, altitude tents, vitamins, freshly brewed coffee, etc.).

Bottom line, "doping" has to be given a somewhat arbitrary definition. The important thing is that the rules should be evenly and thoroughly enforced.

 

[Cloxxki]

I once rode a splendid fall race, considering that I was out of shape (no training in summer due to pollen allergy), and had built the bike the night (half of it) before the race. I contributed it to having this awesome 6ft+ blond girlfriend, even though she was impossible to deal with. She wasn't even at the race, but it sure seemed to give me energy. I should have been wasted for riding back home from here house (2 hours+) with heavy backpack.

Unortunately, if a man doesn't have high moral standards (hence the word of doping), there will be women with a price to give him his boost. Seems to work well for guy with empty stories and ties that take a bit of a curve.

 

[barn yard]

dreams within dreams is too unstable

 

[metaCYCLE]

first i read metal doping...

 

[180mmCrank]

Maybe we should measure IQ and if it's above (or below!) a certain amount it should be considered outside normal parameters and subject to a ban

Disclaimer: my wife is a sports psychologist

 

[FactChecker]

As for the technicalities of doping, have a look at the banned substances and methods list. Either it's covered or it's not. If it works and it's not on the list, you're a fool not to do it (whatever "it" happens to be--therapists, altitude tents, vitamins, freshly brewed coffee, etc.).

Bottom line, "doping" has to be given a somewhat arbitrary definition. The important thing is that the rules should be evenly and thoroughly enforced.

Many substances on the doping list are ineffective. They are there because they might be effective.

Likewise many effective substances are not on the list. Although obviously any known to be highly effective. are put on it

Much of the effect of doping is mental. That is, if you gave the rider the substance without him knowing his performance would rise only slightly. But if you told him you were giving him dope, but didn't, there would be a noticeable improvement.

So if you tell a guy you are doping him, without actually doing so, and he wins - has he broken the rules?

 

[ergmonkey]

Many substances on the doping list are ineffective. They are there because they might be effective.

Likewise many effective substances are not on the list. Although obviously any known to be highly effective. are put on it

Much of the effect of doping is mental. That is, if you gave the rider the substance without him knowing his performance would rise only slightly. But if you told him you were giving him dope, but didn't, there would be a noticeable improvement.

So if you tell a guy you are doping him, without actually doing so, and he wins - has he broken the rules?

Thanks for completely misreading my post. I never suggested that all products on the list work nor that the list covers everything that it could.

My point was this f-ing simple: the rules are the rules. If it's not banned, it's legal.

Your final hypothetical is an absolute joke. In short, NO, a placebo effect is not illegal.

 

[ProfTournesol]

All sarcasm and joking aside, this is an interesting topic.

We frequently hear about riders having problems with confidence or showing mental fragility.

Psychoactive medications such as mood stabilizers, anti-depressants, or attention enhancers might lead to an improvement in performance for those riders.

I understand that batters in major league baseball frequently ise drugs such a ritalin to help them focus on the pitches. Totally different skill set, I understand, but there is a precedent for "mental doping" in professional sports.

Psychoactive substances aren't 'performance enhancing' apart from maybe beat blockers if you have an anxiety disorder and you are a shooter. They all will leave you with serious side-effects with little in the way of performance benefits. You'd be better looking at psychotherapy or some more targeted CBT. Drugs like Ritalin will selectively enhance some aspects of your performance but degrade others so that you may end up performing 'differently' rather than better.

 

[ProfTournesol]

Maybe we should measure IQ and if it's above (or below!) a certain amount it should be considered outside normal parameters and subject to a ban

Disclaimer: my wife is a sports psychologist

while you're at it, we should measure eQ as well. (emotional intelligence)

 

[dbrower]

Psychoactive substances aren't 'performance enhancing' apart from maybe beat blockers if you have an anxiety disorder and you are a shooter. They all will leave you with serious side-effects with little in the way of performance benefits. You'd be better looking at psychotherapy or some more targeted CBT. Drugs like Ritalin will selectively enhance some aspects of your performance but degrade others so that you may end up performing 'differently' rather than better.

A good case can be made that SSRI anti-depressants are a significant aid to maintaining good attitude during training, and that this could be considered performance enhancing. It would be stupid, but it could be done.

-dB

 

[hrotha]

Thanks for completely misreading my post. I never suggested that all products on the list work nor that the list covers everything that it could.

My point was this f-ing simple: the rules are the rules. If it's not banned, it's legal.

Your final hypothetical is an absolute joke. In short, NO, a placebo effect is not illegal.

I don't know about that. Intention to dope, anyone?

 

[FactChecker]

Thanks for completely misreading my post. I never suggested that all products on the list work nor that the list covers everything that it could.

I know that. I was merely stating a fact. I never meant to suggest you thought otherwise.

Your final hypothetical is an absolute joke. In short, NO, a placebo effect is not illegal.

It's not a joke at all - you just haven't thought through the consequences of saying it is not illegal.

If I was training a cyclist to win a Grand Tour, I would use the placebo effect, just as I would use any other useful psychological trick. I would tell him that I was doping him with a new and not yet testable chemical, then fill him full of a substance that would make him feel different when injected, but not actually have any long term effect. A mild shot of adrenaline maybe.

He'd feel great, charge off into training. He'd feel that he was more competitive - and that would translate into him actually being more competitive.

So my cyclist would go in thinking he was doping. And soon other people would think he was doping, due to his behaviour.

The problem from cycling's point of view is that this generates the idea that people are doping, which is bad for the sport. The UCI would not like that, and probably take a dim view of it. Intention to dope would probably constitute an offence, just as attempting to steal is one even if you fail.



Not all smoke has fire. I reckon there are a large number of cyclists "doping" who are actually on chemicals of almost no actual benefit at all. They are being conned by someone. Probably the trainer would be fooled too, by someone pretending to have a secret recipe. Sometimes the doctor would be fooled too - he might believe his recipe works, when in fact it doesn't.

The case for Human Growth Hormone's effect on sporting performance in adults is very weak - but it doesn't stop people using it. Nor are many steriods in use of much actual benefit, other than generating aggression. After all, how do the people going to doping doctors actually know what they are getting works? The only test is results, and the placebo effect will generate those.

Outlandish? Possibly. Except you see if wherever you look in sports. People will inject all sorts of chemicals or indulge in all sorts of behaviour solely on the assurance of others that they work. Some of it is pure comedy - some Aussie Rugby League teams have been paying good money for "energy enhancing" bracelets! Pure placebo effect.

 

[TopCarbon]

oh lord, and isn't there a thread about VeloNews readers who have a sub par iq?

 

[hrotha]

You see, if you're going to put that kind of psychological strain on a rider by making him think he's doping (not that it's much of a strain for many but still), you might as well just dope him for real and get better results. It's not like you're going to get caught if you do it right.

 

[taiwan]

A good case can be made that SSRI anti-depressants are a significant aid to maintaining good attitude during training, and that this could be considered performance enhancing. It would be stupid, but it could be done.

-dB

Bump.

Why would that be stupid? Any known cases of team/ riders using psychiatric drugs for advantage?

 

[Darryl Webster]

A good case can be made that SSRI anti-depressants are a significant aid to maintaining good attitude during training, and that this could be considered performance enhancing. It would be stupid, but it could be done.

-dB

Havng used SSRI anti depresents I`m pretty confident thats they`d be a useless "doping" product. They can block so much emmotional feeling that any desire to train hard or even ride at all can be hard to maintain.
They have theres uses, a PED isnt one of em!

 

[taiwan]

Havng used SSRI anti depresents I`m pretty confident thats they`d be a useless "doping" product. They can block so much emmotional feeling that any desire to train hard or even ride at all can be hard to maintain.
They have theres uses, a PED isnt one of em!

I'm pretty sure I've been on them at one point myself. If I knew more about other psychiatric drugs then I might be able to guess at potential benefits. It's just that mental state is going to have a huge effect on ability in racing as well as training, I could easily see people trying to pharmaceutically manipulate riders in that way.

 

[veganrob]

I don't know how Ritalin would work in humans, but it has been used in TB race horses with very good results. However the trainers were busted and suspended.
As for mental doping, meditation has been proven to make real physiological changes in people. Don't know if one could actually raise the Hct but, who knows. Why not?
And the placebo effect is also proven that it can make a difference in body. might be just psychological, but remember, perception is reality.


Ommmmm

 

[joeyrobbo]

Anyone remember the (boxing) Steve Collins vs Eubank fight in the 90's.. the hype before the fight was that Collins had been using a hypnotist that would stop Collins feeling pain.. the press bought the lot, as did Eubank.. Collins entered the ring with his "hypnotist".. as soon as the fight was over (Collins won) he revealed it was all rubbish.. so not exactly mental doping, more a psychological game with his opponent..