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pmcg76

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With Cav crashing out of the Tour, thought this was a mental statistic in the debate on who is the greatest.

In the 7 Tours that Cipo raced between 92-99. His main rivals over time were

Abdoujaparov 17 GT stage wins
Zabel 20 GT stage wins
Steels 11 GT stage wins

Also there was
Minali 12 GT stage wins
Blijlevens 11 GT stage wins
Svorada 11 GT stage wins
Baldato 8 GT stage wins

Many of these guys crossed over with each other in some Tours. All these riders were pretty much in their prime years in their 20s in those Tours against Cipo.

Between 08-11 Cavendish won 20 Tour stages, considered his prime era.

In those Tours, the only riders in their 20s who competed and would win 10 or more GT stages in their careers were.

Greipel who raced once in 2011 (22 GT stage wins)
Bennati who raced in 2009 (11 GT stage wins) Bennati was coming back from injury that year and his best placings were 9th x 3.

Next best was Farrar with 6 GT stage wins and after that, nobody has more than 3.

Will always contend that the group of sprinters in their 20s during that era were one of the worst ever. Ciolek, Hutarovich, Rojas, Duque, Mondory, Bonnet etc. Add up their GT stage wins and still wouldn't come near an average sprinter. Not really surprising that Cav was so dominant during that period.
 
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Red Rick

Red Rick

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pmcg76 said:
With Cav crashing out of the Tour, thought this was a mental statistic in the debate on who is the greatest.

In the 7 Tours that Cipo raced between 92-99. His main rivals over time were

Abdoujaparov 17 GT stage wins
Zabel 20 GT stage wins
Steels 11 GT stage wins

Also there was
Minali 12 GT stage wins
Blijlevens 11 GT stage wins
Svorada 11 GT stage wins
Baldato 8 GT stage wins

Many of these guys crossed over with each other in some Tours. All these riders were pretty much in their prime years in their 20s in those Tours against Cipo.

Between 08-11 Cavendish won 20 Tour stages, considered his prime era.

In those Tours, the only riders in their 20s who competed and would win 10 or more GT stages in their careers were.

Greipel who raced once in 2011 (22 GT stage wins)
Bennati who raced in 2009 (11 GT stage wins) Bennati was coming back from injury that year and his best placings were 9th x 3.

Next best was Farrar with 6 GT stage wins and after that, nobody has more than 3.

Will always contend that the group of sprinters in their 20s during that era were one of the worst ever. Ciolek, Hutarovich, Rojas, Duque, Mondory, Bonnet etc. Add up their GT stage wins and still wouldn't come near an average sprinter. Not really surprising that Cav was so dominant during that period.
Click to expand...
They had a million more sprint stages in the 90s
 
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pmcg76

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Red Rick said:
They had a million more sprint stages in the 90s
Click to expand...
Even if there may have been the extra 1-2 sprint stages in the 90s, still doesn't explain the huge discrepancies in numbers of wins. In the period prior to 08-11, you had Petacchi 46, McEwen 24, Freire 11, Bennati 11, Boonen 8 and Hushovd 14*. Of course Cav raced against these guys, but they were almost all in their 30s by then. Just as an aside, Petacchi who was in the 35-37 age range during that period took as many GT wins as Farrar with 6, which kinda re-flects the low quality of the younger cadre.

Straight after 2011, you had Greipel 22, Kittel 18, Sagan 18 all going against each other along with Cav.

In summary, fair to say the younger sprinters in the 08-11 period struggled to beat either those who came before or after that period, so natural conclusion is they were just not that great.




Immedia
 
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pmcg76

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Netserk said:
Not that was won by a bunch sprint, so that's irrelevant to the post.

Bunch sprint stage wins:

1990: 3
1991: 4
1992: 2

You can continue if you want. I'm quite sure there isn't a single edition with 7 bunch sprints for the stage victory, unlike later on.
Click to expand...
Well, the late 90s was a bit silly, think there was 9 in 99 and 8 a few times, but when you average it out over the whole decade when sprints were less frequent, then the average works out about the same.

Also going to guess you were looking at winners and figuring they were bunch sprints, Ludwig won a sprint in 1990, but was from a breakaway and likewise Abdu won his first Tour stage from a breakaway 'deluxe' in 91.
 
Red Rick

Red Rick

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pmcg76 said:
Even if there may have been the extra 1-2 sprint stages in the 90s, still doesn't explain the huge discrepancies in numbers of wins. In the period prior to 08-11, you had Petacchi 46, McEwen 24, Freire 11, Bennati 11, Boonen 8 and Hushovd 14*. Of course Cav raced against these guys, but they were almost all in their 30s by then. Just as an aside, Petacchi who was in the 35-37 age range during that period took as many GT wins as Farrar with 6, which kinda re-flects the low quality of the younger cadre.

Straight after 2011, you had Greipel 22, Kittel 18, Sagan 18 all going against each other along with Cav.

In summary, fair to say the younger sprinters in the 08-11 period struggled to beat either those who came before or after that period, so natural conclusion is they were just not that great.




Immedia
Click to expand...
I mean its the same argument as always happens in tennis as well.

Its a 0 sum game. The more dominant one guy is the more you blame the others for being ***
 
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pmcg76

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Netserk said:
I only counted bunch sprints. Not breakaways and not attacks in the last km. When in doubt, I checked a video of the finish.
Click to expand...
Interesting as I only have 2 bunch sprints in 90, both won by Museeuw,St 6 to Mont St. Michel and Paris.

In 91 I have 3, Abdu St 4, Van Poppel St 7 and Konyshev in Paris. I guess some might call Se Wilde on St 3 a sprint, but I think it was a late attack.
 
Red Rick

Red Rick

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pmcg76 said:
Except its not, that is a 4 year window, a small window and those guys struggled to beat the likes of Kittel, Greipel and Sagan as well as the guys who were all in their 30s during that period. They were mediocre.
Click to expand...
Doesn't really explain why Cavendish won 4 stages against all of these guys in 2016, and why Kittels 5 stage TdF was when Cavendish crashed out early.
 
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yaco

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pmcg76 said:
Interesting as I only have 2 bunch sprints in 90, both won by Museeuw,St 6 to Mont St. Michel and Paris.

In 91 I have 3, Abdu St 4, Van Poppel St 7 and Konyshev in Paris. I guess some might call Se Wilde on St 3 a sprint, but I think it was a late attack.
Click to expand...

Because until the mid 90's a number of so-called sprint stages where won by late breakaways in the last 3kms.
 
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pmcg76

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Red Rick said:
Doesn't really explain why Cavendish won 4 stages against all of these guys in 2016, and why Kittels 5 stage TdF was when Cavendish crashed out early.
Click to expand...
What are you on about now? In 2012 Greipel and Cavenish won 3 stages each, in 2013 Kittel won 4 stages, Cav was there. In 2015 Greipel won 4 stages, Cav was there. There was no one dominant rider, they each had good/bad Tours, but the wins were shared out more evenly. Big difference than winning 4+ stages every year.
 
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pmcg76 said:
With Cav crashing out of the Tour, thought this was a mental statistic in the debate on who is the greatest.

In the 7 Tours that Cipo raced between 92-99. His main rivals over time were

Abdoujaparov 17 GT stage wins
Zabel 20 GT stage wins
Steels 11 GT stage wins

Also there was
Minali 12 GT stage wins
Blijlevens 11 GT stage wins
Svorada 11 GT stage wins
Baldato 8 GT stage wins

Many of these guys crossed over with each other in some Tours. All these riders were pretty much in their prime years in their 20s in those Tours against Cipo.

Between 08-11 Cavendish won 20 Tour stages, considered his prime era.

In those Tours, the only riders in their 20s who competed and would win 10 or more GT stages in their careers were.

Greipel who raced once in 2011 (22 GT stage wins)
Bennati who raced in 2009 (11 GT stage wins) Bennati was coming back from injury that year and his best placings were 9th x 3.

Next best was Farrar with 6 GT stage wins and after that, nobody has more than 3.

Will always contend that the group of sprinters in their 20s during that era were one of the worst ever. Ciolek, Hutarovich, Rojas, Duque, Mondory, Bonnet etc. Add up their GT stage wins and still wouldn't come near an average sprinter. Not really surprising that Cav was so dominant during that period.
Click to expand...
Perhaps they won so many because Cipo never hung around too long before toddling off to the beach.

You well may be right, but you can only beat who turns up on the day.
 
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SHAD0W93

SHAD0W93

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pmcg76 said:
With Cav crashing out of the Tour, thought this was a mental statistic in the debate on who is the greatest.

In the 7 Tours that Cipo raced between 92-99. His main rivals over time were

Abdoujaparov 17 GT stage wins
Zabel 20 GT stage wins
Steels 11 GT stage wins

Also there was
Minali 12 GT stage wins
Blijlevens 11 GT stage wins
Svorada 11 GT stage wins
Baldato 8 GT stage wins

Many of these guys crossed over with each other in some Tours. All these riders were pretty much in their prime years in their 20s in those Tours against Cipo.

Between 08-11 Cavendish won 20 Tour stages, considered his prime era.

In those Tours, the only riders in their 20s who competed and would win 10 or more GT stages in their careers were.

Greipel who raced once in 2011 (22 GT stage wins)
Bennati who raced in 2009 (11 GT stage wins) Bennati was coming back from injury that year and his best placings were 9th x 3.

Next best was Farrar with 6 GT stage wins and after that, nobody has more than 3.

Will always contend that the group of sprinters in their 20s during that era were one of the worst ever. Ciolek, Hutarovich, Rojas, Duque, Mondory, Bonnet etc. Add up their GT stage wins and still wouldn't come near an average sprinter. Not really surprising that Cav was so dominant during that period.
Click to expand...
It’s easy to win when the best sprinter with the best train decides to go home or doesn’t even bother to show up.

By 99 Zabel had 7 GT wins in 7 GT starts with Cipo leaving early or not participating.
Abdoujaparov was the best sprinter in the majority of his GT stage wins and had the benefit of Cipo leaving early.
Steels by 99 had 9 GT wins in 4 GT starts but again had the benefit of Cipo leaving early though he did beat Cipo on a few occasions.

How great were those sprint fields in the GdI that Cipo got to pillage while the organizers were helping him with stage design?

Cav was dominate in 2012 as well, he just didn’t have a team to support him and when he did he won those stages. Cav still finished the year with 6 GT stage wins and 7 GT stages in 2013, both more than anyone. Unlike Kittel and Greipel he actually finished those GTs and was still on top.

Farrar also had the crash when he didn’t return to his best self, though it’s hard to say how much more he would have won. The others were below par but Cav, Greipelc Kittel, and Sagan were the best with the best trains. The only other sprinter that came close to the amount of wins was Degenkolb.

Cavendish has beaten many generations of sprinters at GTs.
 
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Rechtschreibfehler

Rechtschreibfehler

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SHAD0W93 said:
Cavendish has beaten many generations of sprinters at GTs.
Click to expand...

He sure has, but that's not in contradiction with one of these generations being comparatively weak. Which, I thought, was what the discussion is about.

My impression of Cav has allways been, that he won a lot of stages by his superior awareness and timing in sprints not just physical power. So that in combination with being fast has made him so deaadly and in a short time when the competition wasn't that great resulted in an absurd amount of victories.
 
SHAD0W93

SHAD0W93

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Rechtschreibfehler said:
He sure has, but that's not in contradiction with one of these generations being comparatively weak. Which, I thought, was what the discussion is about.

My impression of Cav has allways been, that he won a lot of stages by his superior awareness and timing in sprints not just physical power. So that in combination with being fast has made him so deaadly and in a short time when the competition wasn't that great resulted in an absurd amount of victories.
Click to expand...
Again, the others had the benefit of Cipo not showing up to the race or abandoning early enabling them to get more stages. Not to mention Petacchi rarely racing the Tour. Cav went to Giro and Tour while Greipel was at the Vuelta. Makes it hard to rack up any wins when two of the three best of the era are present. The main three opposition during 2008-2011/2012 were Greipel, Farrar, Petacchi, and to a lesser extent Bennati. Farrar didn’t get the benefit of his main competitor not showing up or leaving, otherwise he’d have quite a bit more wins.


From 1990-2007 at TdF only two sprinters won 4 times, Cipo and Petacchi. Three wins were 5x done by Zabel and McEwen and Steels twice. Without Cav present, those years would be the same as previous with sprinters getting 1-3 wins a pop.
 
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pmcg76

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SHAD0W93 said:
It’s easy to win when the best sprinter with the best train decides to go home or doesn’t even bother to show up.

By 99 Zabel had 7 GT wins in 7 GT starts with Cipo leaving early or not participating.
Abdoujaparov was the best sprinter in the majority of his GT stage wins and had the benefit of Cipo leaving early.
Steels by 99 had 9 GT wins in 4 GT starts but again had the benefit of Cipo leaving early though he did beat Cipo on a few occasions.

How great were those sprint fields in the GdI that Cipo got to pillage while the organizers were helping him with stage design?

Cav was dominate in 2012 as well, he just didn’t have a team to support him and when he did he won those stages. Cav still finished the year with 6 GT stage wins and 7 GT stages in 2013, both more than anyone. Unlike Kittel and Greipel he actually finished those GTs and was still on top.

Farrar also had the crash when he didn’t return to his best self, though it’s hard to say how much more he would have won. The others were below par but Cav, Greipelc Kittel, and Sagan were the best with the best trains. The only other sprinter that came close to the amount of wins was Degenkolb.

Cavendish has beaten many generations of sprinters at GTs.
Click to expand...
Still don't get it. This is actually proving my point if anything. If Cipo was not at a GT, there were other riders who could step up and win plenty. All those riders also beat Cipo for stages at Le Tour, but Cipo was still the top sprinter overall when he was in the race

During the Cav reign 08-11, there was no real sprinter who could step up and dominate when he wasn't at a GT. All those sprinters rode more than just 4 years in their careers, Farrar was at the level of a 35-37yo Petacchi. Cav was so far ahead of the rest, but was that because he was so great or the others were not so good? We already know the answer as when Kittel, Greipel etc came along, they could also rack up the wins if any of the others were missing or off form suggesting it was a case of the others just not being so good.

I also find it ironic that Cav is put forward as the greatest based on numbers, 34 Tour stages etc, but when numbers are used to point out his opposition might not have been so good at times, suddenly there are caveats and reasons.
 
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