Mental or random cycling statistics

[RedheadDane]

After the retirement of Nibali, Vingegaard is the only active rider to have won a GT starting in the country of his birth.
Which is quite interesting, all things considered.

 

[tobydawq]

Is 29 days in yellow the highest amount for somebody who has never won the tour?

Yes.

 

[Mosul]

Of course Asgreen's chances are... slightly better.

 

[SHAD0W93]

When is the last time only one rider won multiple stages in the Tour? I’ve gotten to 2006 and still nothing.

 

[RedheadDane]

When is the last time only one rider won multiple stages in the Tour? I’ve gotten to 2006 and still nothing.

Not this year.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Not this year.

Dang Pog ruining it

 

[Wyndbrook]

Pog will today become the only person to have won four young rider jerseys.

 

[RedheadDane]

Pog will today become the only person to have won four young rider jerseys.

And it's a record that's gonna be quite hard to beat.

 

[tobydawq]

And it's a record that's gonna be quite hard to beat.

To beat, sure, but Ayuso can begin collecting next year and then he will also get to four.

If he can co-exist with Pogacar that is.

 

[RedheadDane]

To beat, sure, but Ayuso can begin collecting next year and then he will also get to four.

If he can co-exist with Pogacar that is.

There's also this Belgian guy who might make it a bit complicated.

 

[Red Rick]

Thibaut Pinot being a winner of Lombardia but never even racing Liege still blows my mind.

 

[Netserk]

Thibaut Pinot being a winner of Lombardia but never even racing Liege still blows my mind.

I think he might be the only monument winner who has only ever started one of them.

 

[Finn84]

Pog will today become the only person to have won four young rider jerseys.

In the last three years he has led the classification after all stages.

In 2020 he led it for 12 days with Bernal leading for six, Hirschi for two and Pedersen for one.

All in all, that's 72 consecutive stages Pogacar led the classification.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Pog will today become the only person to have won four young rider jerseys.

And now the most young rider wins with 5 over Andy’s 4.

Others could be closer if the Giro and Vuelta always awarded the jersey or have won it, Cunego would have 1 more, Contador 2 more, Aru 1 more, Nibali 1, and Valverde 2.

 

[Panda Claws]

I think he might be the only monument winner who has only ever started one of them.

At least after World War II. I don't think the Italians bothered much with LBL before.

 

[RedheadDane]

The three countries with most WT wins this year are Slovenia, Belgium (both 19), and Denmark (18). UK is 4th with 8.
Here's a quick break-down for each country.

Slovenia:
1 GT win (Roglic)
1 Monument win (Pogacar)
3 Week-long stage race wins (Roglic, Pogacar)
2 One-day race wins (Pogacar)
4 GT stage wins (Roglic, Pogacar, Mohoric)
8 Week-long stage race stage wins (Roglic, Pogacar)

Belgium:
1 Monument win (Evenepoel)
1 Week-long stage race win (Evenepoel)
2 One-day race wins (Van Aert, Philipsen)
7 GT stage wins (Evenepoel, Philipsen, Meeus)
8 Week-long stage race stage wins (Merlier, Philipsen, Evenepoel)

Denmark:
1 GT win (Vingegaard)
3 Week-long stage race wins (Vingegaard, Skjelmose)
1 One-day race win (Kragh)
5 GT stage wins (Pedersen, Cort, Vingegaard, Asgreen)
8 Week-long stage race stage wins (Pedersen, Vingegaard, Bjerg, Skjelmose)

 

[SHAD0W93]

With Cav crashing out of the Tour, thought this was a mental statistic in the debate on who is the greatest.

In the 7 Tours that Cipo raced between 92-99. His main rivals over time were

Abdoujaparov 17 GT stage wins
Zabel 20 GT stage wins
Steels 11 GT stage wins

Also there was
Minali 12 GT stage wins
Blijlevens 11 GT stage wins
Svorada 11 GT stage wins
Baldato 8 GT stage wins

Many of these guys crossed over with each other in some Tours. All these riders were pretty much in their prime years in their 20s in those Tours against Cipo.

Between 08-11 Cavendish won 20 Tour stages, considered his prime era.

In those Tours, the only riders in their 20s who competed and would win 10 or more GT stages in their careers were.

Greipel who raced once in 2011 (22 GT stage wins)
Bennati who raced in 2009 (11 GT stage wins) Bennati was coming back from injury that year and his best placings were 9th x 3.

Next best was Farrar with 6 GT stage wins and after that, nobody has more than 3.

Will always contend that the group of sprinters in their 20s during that era were one of the worst ever. Ciolek, Hutarovich, Rojas, Duque, Mondory, Bonnet etc. Add up their GT stage wins and still wouldn't come near an average sprinter. Not really surprising that Cav was so dominant during that period.

Since you haven’t given any kind of number for the number of sprinters in the 90s vs 2010s, though it’s less but I’m unable to find how much less, here’s some numbers for you.

For the seven riders you picked this is the amount of times they beat Cipollini;
Steels 3
Blijlevens 2
Minali 2
Svorada 2
Abdoujaparov 1
Zabel 1
Baldato 0
11 times
73 total GT stage wins for the seven riders.
11 GT points classifications

For Cavendish’s years you selected this is the riders that beat him;
Petacchi 4
Bennati 3
Farrar 3
Greipel 2
Hutarovich 1
13 times
88 total GT stage wins for the 5 riders.
6 GT points classifications

And for the Cavendish years I selected 2007-2014;
Greipel 4
Petacchi 4
Bennati 3
Farrar 3
Kittel 3
Ferrari 1
Guardini 1
Hushovd 1
Hutarovich 1
21 times
124 total GT stage wins for these 9 riders
9 GT points classifications

During the more fair timeframes for both riders:
Cipo won 35 GT stages, 2 GT points classifications, 15 GTs started, and 105 total wins.
Cav won 43 GT stages, 3 GT points classifications (and could have had 6 with more luck or a better head on his side), 15 GTs started, and 120 wins.


So was Cipo’s competition actually better or did they just benefit from him not showing up or abandoning the race on top of making a career out of sprinting being new at the time? Or were Cipollini, Petacchi, and Cavendish that much better than everyone else? Since the 2000s we have seen sprinters older then 25 still be able to win sprint stages and sometimes multiple times during a GT edition. Could Cipo have won more, absolutely but he decided to abandon a lot of the races instead of riding in the mountains. Why are we going to further knock a rider who actually attempted to finish every GT he started?

 

[pmcg76]

Since you haven’t given any kind of number for the number of sprinters in the 90s vs 2010s, though it’s less but I’m unable to find how much less, here’s some numbers for you.

For the seven riders you picked this is the amount of times they beat Cipollini;
Steels 3
Blijlevens 2
Minali 2
Svorada 2
Abdoujaparov 1
Zabel 1
Baldato 0
11 times
73 total GT stage wins for the seven riders.
11 GT points classifications

For Cavendish’s years you selected this is the riders that beat him;
Petacchi 4
Bennati 3
Farrar 3
Greipel 2
Hutarovich 1
13 times
88 total GT stage wins for the 5 riders.
6 GT points classifications

And for the Cavendish years I selected 2007-2014;
Greipel 4
Petacchi 4
Bennati 3
Farrar 3
Kittel 3
Ferrari 1
Guardini 1
Hushovd 1
Hutarovich 1
21 times
124 total GT stage wins for these 9 riders
9 GT points classifications

During the more fair timeframes for both riders:
Cipo won 35 GT stages, 2 GT points classifications, 15 GTs started, and 105 total wins.
Cav won 43 GT stages, 3 GT points classifications (and could have had 6 with more luck or a better head on his side), 15 GTs started, and 120 wins.


So was Cipo’s competition actually better or did they just benefit from him not showing up or abandoning the race on top of making a career out of sprinting being new at the time? Or were Cipollini, Petacchi, and Cavendish that much better than everyone else? Since the 2000s we have seen sprinters older then 25 still be able to win sprint stages and sometimes multiple times during a GT edition. Could Cipo have won more, absolutely but he decided to abandon a lot of the races instead of riding in the mountains. Why are we going to further knock a rider who actually attempted to finish every GT he started?

I didn't respond before as it just seemed to be going in circles, but as you insist, there was just as many sprinters in the 90s as there was in any other era. On top of the riders I listed there was also Moncassin, Van Poppel, Neliseen, Ludwig, Bontempi, Kirsipuu, McEwen, O'Grady, Wust, Leoni, Baffi, Quaranta, Magnusson, Guidi etc, etc.

Right through the 80/early 90s, there were far less sprint stages as teams were not really dedicated to sprinters, though they sometimes chased down breakaways in an effort to set up sprints, but leadout trains were pretty limited and you had riders like DeWilde, Nijdam, Marie who could still skip off the front in the final km and win. Something that is almost non-existent nowadays. For context, there were as many sprint stages in this years Tour as there was in the 89/90/91 Tours combined, throw in 92 and it wouldn't change much.

Cipo moved to the MG-GB team in 92 and had a bit of a leadout, but at the Tour that year, there was not a single sprint finish until the second week so clearly his team were not effective in setting up sprints. The second sprint finish was in Paris that year. After that things started to evolve, but Cipo pretty much missed all of 94 because his own team-mate Baffi took him out in a sprint at La Vuelta, thereafter we see the development of Cipos Red Train at Saeco which to me at least, was the beginning of proper sprint trains and saw a big increase in the numbers of bunch sprints at Le Tour thereafter. At that stage Cipo was already 27.

I am not sure what your stats are trying to demonstrate, but the figures for rides who competed against Cav are heavily skewered by one rider Petacchi who has 50 GT wins and was 36/37 when he went up against Cav at the Tour in 2010/11. Does anyone really believe he was at his peak at that point in his career? Bennati 11 GT wins, rode the Tour in 09 having missed 2 months to injury in the run-up, best results 9th in 2 bunch sprints. Then Greipel with 22 GT stage wins, rode once in 2011. Riders between them with 83 GT stage wins out of 88.

If you had a Bennati with 07/08 form, along with peak Petacchi, Greipel and sprinter Boonen racing in Le Tour from 08-11, then you could compare to Cipo against Zabel, Steels, Blijlevens etc. In that case I would be confident Cav would not have taken 20 stages in 4 years which is the whole point.

I am not even arguing Cipo is better than Cav. I am pointing out that using numbers to show who the best sprinter is kinda pointless as each era was different in its own way. If Cav had raced in the 80s, he would not have won a World Title or Milan-San Remo or 34 Tour stages or if he had been born in Italy and raced in the 90s, the Giro might have been the focus and the same goes for Cipo or most modern sprinters. So how can anyone claim they were the greatest based on numbers?

As an aside, in an issue of Cycle Sport from 2001, there was an article on the greatest sprinter of all time. Cipo had 12 Tour stages, over 30 Giro stages, two Ghent-Wevelgem and countless other wins at that point. He was ranked 9th on the list according to Barry Hoban(Sprinter from the 70s) and Grame Fife (cycling author). I am not sure his annus mirabilis would have moved him up much as the big criticism was he relied on his team to win, which can be applied equally to Cav. Joint No 1 was Maertens and Darrigade.

 

[SHAD0W93]

I didn't respond before as it just seemed to be going in circles, but as you insist, there was just as many sprinters in the 90s as there was in any other era. On top of the riders I listed there was also Moncassin, Van Poppel, Neliseen, Ludwig, Bontempi, Kirsipuu, McEwen, O'Grady, Wust, Leoni, Baffi, Quaranta, Magnusson, Guidi etc, etc.

Right through the 80/early 90s, there were far less sprint stages as teams were not really dedicated to sprinters, though they sometimes chased down breakaways in an effort to set up sprints, but leadout trains were pretty limited and you had riders like DeWilde, Nijdam, Marie who could still skip off the front in the final km and win. Something that is almost non-existent nowadays. For context, there were as many sprint stages in this years Tour as there was in the 89/90/91 Tours combined, throw in 92 and it wouldn't change much.

Cipo moved to the MG-GB team in 92 and had a bit of a leadout, but at the Tour that year, there was not a single sprint finish until the second week so clearly his team were not effective in setting up sprints. The second sprint finish was in Paris that year. After that things started to evolve, but Cipo pretty much missed all of 94 because his own team-mate Baffi took him out in a sprint at La Vuelta, thereafter we see the development of Cipos Red Train at Saeco which to me at least, was the beginning of proper sprint trains and saw a big increase in the numbers of bunch sprints at Le Tour thereafter. At that stage Cipo was already 27.

I am not sure what your stats are trying to demonstrate, but the figures for rides who competed against Cav are heavily skewered by one rider Petacchi who has 50 GT wins and was 36/37 when he went up against Cav at the Tour in 2010/11. Does anyone really believe he was at his peak at that point in his career? Bennati 11 GT wins, rode the Tour in 09 having missed 2 months to injury in the run-up, best results 9th in 2 bunch sprints. Then Greipel with 22 GT stage wins, rode once in 2011. Riders between them with 83 GT stage wins out of 88.

If you had a Bennati with 07/08 form, along with peak Petacchi, Greipel and sprinter Boonen racing in Le Tour from 08-11, then you could compare to Cipo against Zabel, Steels, Blijlevens etc. In that case I would be confident Cav would not have taken 20 stages in 4 years which is the whole point.

I am not even arguing Cipo is better than Cav. I am pointing out that using numbers to show who the best sprinter is kinda pointless as each era was different in its own way. If Cav had raced in the 80s, he would not have won a World Title or Milan-San Remo or 34 Tour stages or if he had been born in Italy and raced in the 90s, the Giro might have been the focus and the same goes for Cipo or most modern sprinters. So how can anyone claim they were the greatest based on numbers?

As an aside, in an issue of Cycle Sport from 2001, there was an article on the greatest sprinter of all time. Cipo had 12 Tour stages, over 30 Giro stages, two Ghent-Wevelgem and countless other wins at that point. He was ranked 9th on the list according to Barry Hoban(Sprinter from the 70s) and Grame Fife (cycling author). I am not sure his annus mirabilis would have moved him up much as the big criticism was he relied on his team to win, which can be applied equally to Cav. Joint No 1 was Maertens and Darrigade.

Yes, so with less sprint stages being on offer there would be less sprinters.

The stats I used were based off the seven riders you picked and how often they actually beat Cipollini and to see if they just won more when he wasn’t present. So I went and picked the riders that beat Cav during both timeframes, of your “peak” and his true peak.

Yes, the GT stages are heavily in favor of Cav due to Petacchi but he did beat Cav the most and more than anyone beat Cipo. It is also important to include him based on the fact the others won more when Cipo wasn’t present, and your argument for them being superior was their higher GT stage win success. Yet they could barely beat Cipo and won more when he wasn’t present. Petacchi also won at that old age which is also multiple points that have been made in favor of him, Cipo, and Cavs’ longevity that they all won multiple GT stages and a points classification in their older age.

Just like those seven riders weren’t at every edition of the Tour that Cipo took part in or other GTs he raced, they were separately present 2-4 times. Which is the point. Both riders had good to great sprinters they went up against in their careers but those rivals weren’t always present. That’s the point.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Guys, Guys, Guys, clearly the only relevant data point is stage 2 of the 2008 Tour of California where 40 year old Cipo on a one-off comeback finished 3rd while peak Cavendish finished 4th. This also gives us the two sprinters who are even better and are the only ones relevant for comparison, Tom Boonen and Heinrich Haussler.

 

[Red Rick]

Carlos Sastre never won a stage in La Vuelta, despite racing it 10 times, making the top 10 7 times and making the podium 3 times.

 

[pmcg76]

Yes, so with less sprint stages being on offer there would be less sprinters.

The stats I used were based off the seven riders you picked and how often they actually beat Cipollini and to see if they just won more when he wasn’t present. So I went and picked the riders that beat Cav during both timeframes, of your “peak” and his true peak.

Yes, the GT stages are heavily in favor of Cav due to Petacchi but he did beat Cav the most and more than anyone beat Cipo. It is also important to include him based on the fact the others won more when Cipo wasn’t present, and your argument for them being superior was their higher GT stage win success. Yet they could barely beat Cipo and won more when he wasn’t present. Petacchi also won at that old age which is also multiple points that have been made in favor of him, Cipo, and Cavs’ longevity that they all won multiple GT stages and a points classification in their older age.

Just like those seven riders weren’t at every edition of the Tour that Cipo took part in or other GTs he raced, they were separately present 2-4 times. Which is the point. Both riders had good to great sprinters they went up against in their careers but those rivals weren’t always present. That’s the point.

So this will continue in circles. My last post on this then.

Why would less sprint stages mean less sprinters? At the 92 Tour for example there was Cipo, Abdu, Nelissen, Van Poppel, Ludwig, Museeuw, Jalabert, Vanderaerden, Capiot, Fidanza, Kappes, Stumpf, all recognised sprinters, but just 2 bunch sprints the entire races. Sprinters still existed, they just had a lot less opportunities and a lot, lot less wins.

I think when you talk about riders who beat Cipo or Cav, you mean when they also finished in Top 10 also.

So again, Zabel, Blijlevens, Minali, Svorada, Steels all beat Cipo for wins at the Tour between 95-99. In all 5 of those Tours, there was always at least 4 of those guys present.

Using the same criteria, the only guys you listed who beat Cav at the Tour 08-11 were Farrar and Greipel, both in 2011. Farrar and Greipel rode in the same Tour once. If 4 out of Farrar, Greipel, Petacchi, Bennati, Hushovd were present every Tour between 08-11, you might have a case, but that didn't happen. Greipel rode once, 36-37yo Petacchi x 2, out of form Bennati x1, Farrar x 3 and all-rounder Hushovd being the only one to ride every Tour.

There is an obvious difference in consistent strength in depth between the two eras. If you don't want to recognise it, fine.

 

[Red Rick]

After the retirement of Nibali, Vingegaard is the only active rider to have won a GT starting in the country of his birth.
Which is quite interesting, all things considered.

Sad Steven Kruijswijk noises.

 

[RedheadDane]

Sad Steven Kruijswijk noises.

What does that sound like?

 

[Red Rick]

What does that sound like?

Man crashing in snow wall while bike is making frontflips in background