Merckx picks Gilbert over Van den Broeck for good Tour finish

[The Hitch]

.
Winning a TTT is not even respectable

It is when your Cancellara and you win the ttt for the team

Do you honestly think I don't know who has the best palmares of the two? Please...

Yeah. Best palmares = better

 

[El Pistolero]

It is when your Cancellara and you win the ttt for the team






Yeah. Best palmares = better

Cancellara's palmares doesn't make him a better classics specialist than Gilbert.

Using the old World cup system

Philippe Gilbert:

310 points

Fabian Cancellara:

209 points

Ps: Cancellara didn't do more work than other members of the team during that TTT. What? You think he did it all by him self?

 

[The Hitch]

Cancellara's palmares doesn't make him a better classics specialist than Gilbert.

Using the old World cup system

Philippe Gilbert:

310 points

Fabian Cancellara:

209 points

Ps: Cancellara didn't do more work than other members of the team during that TTT. What? You think he did it all by him self?

Using simple logic

Gilbert -Giro Lombardia, Amstel Gold and 2 podiums

Very good effort and lots of points

Cancellara - Paris Roubaix and RVV in one week.

Priceless

 

[theyoungest]

Don't use words that you don't know the meaning of please.

You're debating the meaning of words now? You really take the biscuit.

 

[El Pistolero]

Using simple logic

Gilbert -Giro Lombardia, Amstel Gold and 2 podiums

Very good effort and lots of points

Cancellara - Paris Roubaix and RVV in one week.

Priceless

Makes Cancellara a better cobbled classics specialist than Gilbert, not a better classics specialist.

I'm not even saying Gilbert is the better cyclist or that he has a better palmares. We're talking about classic races here and by looking at the last 2 years Gilbert has been the better classics specialist for me. Because only the present counts right? Last 2 seasons is pretty recent. Gilbert entered 4 Monuments this season and he placed top 10 in all 4 of those. He got one win and 2 podiums of the 4 Monuments he entered. That means he performed well in them and that he can win them in the future. Cancellara is obviously the better cobbled specialist here, but for me Gilbert is the best classics specialist out there. He's not just good at the cobbled classics, but also good at the hilly classics.

Who cares if Cancellara is a four time world time trial champion? We're talking about classics, not time trials.

Priceless


Don't stare your self blind on the PR and RVV double. Boonen could've done it 2 more times in 2008/2009 if he wasn't forced into a defensive role in the RVV of 2008/2009. And no, Boonen is not a better classics specialist than Gilbert.

You're debating the meaning of words now? You really take the biscuit.

No, I'm debating your intelligence. Well, if I could find it that is.

Might want to just stop talking to me if you're always yapping the same nonsense about Belgians and bigotry. Go learn some new words kid. Instead of always insulting people you might want to actually use real arguments if you think I'm wrong. But than you wouldn't be a bigot anymore now would you?

 

[The Hitch]

Makes Cancellara a better cobbled classics specialist than Gilbert, not a better classics specialist.

I'm not even saying Gilbert is the better cyclist or that he has a better palmares. We're talking about classic races here and by looking at the last 2 years Gilbert has been the better classics specialist for me Because only the present counts right? Last 2 seasons is pretty recent.

Priceless


Don't stare your self blind on the PR and RVV double. Boonen could've done it 2 more times in 2008/2009 if he wasn't forced into a defensive role in the RVV of 2008/2009. And no, Boonen is not a better classics specialist than Gilbert.

Nice sleight of hand attempt with the "2" seasons, but no one uses 2 year systems. Leagues are 1 year, tennis is a 1 year rolling system as is CQ and the Pt is 1 year.

Nice try though

Look. Obviously Cancellara is the better overall rider and im glad you aknowledged that.

So with that out of the way lets look at the title you create. "better classics specialist".

Ok, here i can see your point of view. I can understand why some people might think Gilbert is a better classics specialist.

And you use the term "in my opinion".

Well in my opinion here is why Fabian Cancellara is the better classics specialist.

In the 2010 Liege Bastogne Liege, Phillipe Gilbert, the local hero, Wallone born and bred, from the streets on which they were racing, attacked from 7km out with several hills to go. The previous Sunday he had shown an awesome performance to win a brutal race. This was the attack everyone had been waiting for. All or nothing. Sheer guts. He knew it was a risk. He had 2 decent riders in front of him and 2 top guys behind including a 2 time winner. Immediately he got 20 seconds on the others.

It was an amazing effort. But ultimately he popped. He couldnt keep it going and came 4th on the day.

In the 2010 Paris Roubaix Cancellara, the Suisse favourite, former winner went from 47km out. THe previous Sunday he had shown an awesome peformance to win a brutal race. He had several very very horrible cobble sections to come, and a 3 time winner + podium regulars behind him. This was the attack everyone had been waiting for. Sheer guts. He knew it was a risk.

It was an amazing effort. ANd he held on. The gap went up, up up and his was the name that went down on the winners list.

Theres the difference.
For me.

 

[Nibali]

For me Cancellara is better in cobbled classics and Gilbert better in hilly classics. All there is to it

 

[El Pistolero]

Nice sleight of hand attempt with the "2" seasons, but no one uses 2 year systems. Leagues are 1 year, tennis is a 1 year rolling system as is CQ and the Pt is 1 year.

Nice try though

Look. Obviously Cancellara is the better overall rider and im glad you aknowledged that.

So with that out of the way lets look at the title you create. "better classics specialist".

Ok, here i can see your point of view. I can understand why some people might think Gilbert is a better classics specialist.

And you use the term "in my opinion".

Well in my opinion here is why Fabian Cancellara is the better classics specialist.

In the 2010 Liege Bastogne Liege, Phillipe Gilbert, the local hero, Wallone born and bred, from the streets on which they were racing, attacked from 7km out with several hills to go. The previous Sunday he had shown an awesome performance to win a brutal race. This was the attack everyone had been waiting for. All or nothing. Sheer guts. He knew it was a risk. He had 2 decent riders in front of him and 2 top guys behind including a 2 time winner. Immediately he got 20 seconds on the others.

It was an amazing effort. But ultimately he popped. He couldnt keep it going and came 4th on the day.

In the 2010 Paris Roubaix Cancellara, the Suisse favourite, former winner went from 47km out. THe previous Sunday he had shown an awesome peformance to win a brutal race. He had several very very horrible cobble sections to come, and a 3 time winner + podium regulars behind him. This was the attack everyone had been waiting for. Sheer guts. He knew it was a risk.

It was an amazing effort. ANd he held on. The gap went up, up up and his was the name that went down on the winners list.

Theres the difference.
For me.

You're forgetting Lombardia though. That was also very impressive and Gilbert went from like 25km to go. Sure Nibali crashed, but Boonen was also snoozing at the back when Cancellara attacked(not that it would have mattered, Cancellara was clearly stronger, but Boonen would have been able to follow for quite a few km I think.)

I don't even think it's possible to go out from 46km to go in a race like LBL or GdL(in modern times). While in Paris-Roubaix it has been done multiple times last decade.

Ps: Who the hell only looks at one year? That would mean Boonen is a totally worthless cyclist. While in reality he is one of the best out there.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

You're also forgetting that there was absolutely no impetus in the chase of Cancellara at Paris-Roubaix, because they all knew they were racing for second after a while, and they worked together about as well as Evans and Righi.

 

[The Hitch]

You're forgetting Lombardia though. That was also very impressive and Gilbert went from like 25km to go. Sure Nibali crashed, but Boonen was also snoozing at the back when Cancellara attacked(not that it would have mattered, Cancellara was clearly stronger, but Boonen would have been able to follow for quite a few km I think.)

I don't even think it's possible to go out from 46km to go in a race like LBL or GdL(in modern times). While in Paris-Roubaix it has been done multiple times last decade.

No. Lombardy is cancelled out by RVV. That was my point. They both have one each. Cancellara goes for PR, Gilbert for LBL. In their respective races, they both put in huge brave efforts. Cancellara succeeds, Gilbert doesnt.

That there is the difference between someone who is going to become a winner of 5 monuments, and someone who is not.

Ps: Who the hell only looks at one year? That would mean Boonen is a totally worthless cyclist. While in reality he is one of the best out there.

No. You either look at 1 year (like everyone does) and base who is best in the world on what they have done over a 365 day period (all sports do this) or you look back overall with no limit.

In both cases Canc comes up on top.

For me Cancellara is better in cobbled classics and Gilbert better in hilly classics. All there is to it

All right then. Find something else we can talk about on here for the next 2 months.

 

[El Pistolero]

No. Lombardy is cancelled out by RVV. That was my point. They both have one each. Cancellara goes for PR, Gilbert for LBL. In their respective races, they both put in huge brave efforts. Cancellara succeeds, Gilbert doesnt.

That there is the difference between someone who is going to become a winner of 5 monuments, and someone who is not.

You're forgetting the 5 failed efforts of Cancellara at winning the Ronde. And he lost many times in P-R as well.

To go with your tennis analogy. You think the current number one at tennis is the best? Nope. Just lucky that Henin and the William sisters were injured. And Clijsters hardly played anything to be with her kid or something(lame).

 

[The Hitch]

You're forgetting the 5 failed efforts of Cancellara at winning the Ronde. And he lost many times in P-R as well.

To go with your tennis analogy. You think the current number one at tennis is the best? Nope. Just lucky that Henin and the William sisters were injured. And Clijsters hardly played anything to be with her kid or something(lame).

Mate, relax. I am sorry to say i am not a fortune teller of any sort, hence the claim that Cancellara is going to win 5 monuments is clearly a joke.

But you do realise this post is a huge + to the youngest in his argument that you are belgian biased. I mean you have the whole world of sport to choose from for an example, and you pick henin and cleijsters.

Justine is the best though. In tennis height is a big +. Shes frickin 165 and uses the technique to compensate.

There is one thing Justine (when she wins wimbledon) will get though that Gilbert wont.

Guess what it is

 

[El Pistolero]

Mate, relax. I am sorry to say i am not a fortune teller of any sort, hence the claim that Cancellara is going to win 5 monuments is clearly a joke.

But you do realise this post is a huge + to the youngest in his argument that you are belgian biased. I mean you have the whole world of sport to choose from for an example, and you pick henin and cleijsters.

Justine is the best though. In tennis height is a big +. Shes frickin 165 and uses the technique to compensate.

There is one thing Justine (when she wins wimbledon) will get though that Gilbert wont.

Guess what it is

Because Henin, Clijsters and the William sisters are the best in female tennis? Nothing to do with them being Belgian. What? William sisters are Belgian now? You started to use tennis as en example of why they only look at one season. And you also used CQ ranking. Which is funny since Gilbert places higher than Cancellara there.

Not that winning all Grand Slams and winning all the monuments is the same thing. The latter is clearly harder if you look how many times the first one has been acomplished.

There's one thing Justine will never get that Gilbert already has though. Lots of Flemish fans.

 

[The Hitch]

There's one thing Justine will never get that Gilbert already has though. Lots of Flemish fans.

Thats the Raymond Poulidor effect though isnt it

 

[El Pistolero]

Thats the Raymond Poulidor effect though isnt it

For Clijsters perhaps. Though she had a great comeback so far.

 

[Andre.J]

The comment by Merckx was intended to motivate VdB just a little more. It will also motivate Gilbert even more.

 

[El Pistolero]

The comment by Merckx was intended to motivate VdB just a little more. It will also motivate Gilbert even more.

I think the comment of Merckx was in response to what Gilbert said at the Flandriens this year.

He said that he can see him self place well in the Tour de France some day. But his main goals now are the classics(his words).

At the Flandriens Gilbert also asked if he could vote for him self lol. And he did.

 

[Matthijs]

Nice sleight of hand attempt with the "2" seasons, but no one uses 2 year systems. Leagues are 1 year, tennis is a 1 year rolling system as is CQ and the Pt is 1 year.

Nice try though

Look. Obviously Cancellara is the better overall rider and im glad you aknowledged that.

So with that out of the way lets look at the title you create. "better classics specialist".

Ok, here i can see your point of view. I can understand why some people might think Gilbert is a better classics specialist.

And you use the term "in my opinion".

Well in my opinion here is why Fabian Cancellara is the better classics specialist.

In the 2010 Liege Bastogne Liege, Phillipe Gilbert, the local hero, Wallone born and bred, from the streets on which they were racing, attacked from 7km out with several hills to go. The previous Sunday he had shown an awesome performance to win a brutal race. This was the attack everyone had been waiting for. All or nothing. Sheer guts. He knew it was a risk. He had 2 decent riders in front of him and 2 top guys behind including a 2 time winner. Immediately he got 20 seconds on the others.

It was an amazing effort. But ultimately he popped. He couldnt keep it going and came 4th on the day.

In the 2010 Paris Roubaix Cancellara, the Suisse favourite, former winner went from 47km out. THe previous Sunday he had shown an awesome peformance to win a brutal race. He had several very very horrible cobble sections to come, and a 3 time winner + podium regulars behind him. This was the attack everyone had been waiting for. Sheer guts. He knew it was a risk.

It was an amazing effort. ANd he held on. The gap went up, up up and his was the name that went down on the winners list.

Theres the difference.
For me.

Better comparison: In the 2009 Worlds Road Race, Fabian Cancellara, the local hero, Swiss born and bred, from the streets on which they were racing, attacked too many times with several hills to go. The previous week he had shown an awesome peformance to win a brutal TT race. He had several very very horrible hilly sections to come, and a 3 time winner + podium regulars behind him. This was a TT everyone had been waiting for. Sheer guts. He knew it was a risk.
So, we all know he lost his race at home soil too...

Technically Canc had a better season with the double, even only looking at the classics. But then again I can understand why someone would think Gilbert is better at Classics, because of his good placings in various types of classics.
Boonen however, had also a good season. He didn't win anything, even no semi-classic and that's real nothing for him. But two 2nd placings in Monuments and obviously the 2nd best in PR were good!

Overal Classic riders still active:
1. Boonen (5M, GW)
2. Gilbert (2M, AGR, 2PT)
3. Cancellara (4M)
4. Cunego (3M, AGR)
5. Freire (3M)
6. Valverder/Vino (2M)

 

[The Hitch]

Overal Classic riders still active:
1. Boonen (5M, GW)
2. Gilbert (2M, AGR, 2PT)
3. Cancellara (4M)
4. Cunego (3M, AGR)
5. Freire (3M)
6. Valverder/Vino (2M)

lol you count AGR for Gilbert but no FW for Valverde. And as has been pointed out to you, you cant give Paris tours or Agr the same worth as Paris Roubaix. Thats just flawed.

Your whole system is flawed. Why not count E3 and Strade Bianchi for Cancellara too?


Also Freire won GW and Paris-Tours, so presumably that puts him above Cancellara and even with Gilbert (since your counting MSR as = to Paris Tours). but im sure a different system to accomodate this revelation will be quickly thought up.

 

[Eric8-A]

Gilbert said he was planning on targeting the points competition at the Vuelta but later didn't. Anybody else think he has a better shot of winning green jersey with the new points system?

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

He stated in a Belgian newspaper today he wants to ride a good GC in a GT over 5 years or so. Maybe not the tour, but rather vuelta or even giro...

 

[Frosty]

Gilbert said he was planning on targeting the points competition at the Vuelta but later didn't. Anybody else think he has a better shot of winning green jersey with the new points system?

This is one thing i had wondered. He certainly should get off to a good start with the uphill finish on the first stage. The uphill finish on the fourth stage also looks good and maybe the finish on stage 6 too. After that, stage 8 could be good for him reading the letour guide, and stage 9 looks good too (although there is no guarantee that these stages will finish in bunch sprints). In the mountains he could get into breaks to get a few intermediate points


Problems for him though are that he will lose big points in the sprints when the main sprinters are present, and also that Lotto have other objectives - Greipel for the sprints and van den Broeck for the overall. If Greipel is going well then Lotto will want to concentrate on him in the flat sprint finishes and Gilbert would be useful in the lead-out i would have thought. Its months away yet but he could win the first stage and get the green jersey there but a sprinter who is able to place highly on flat stages and also do well on uphill sprints is probably more likely to be holding it after that during the first week. He's certainly a potential candidate but not the favourite IMO.

 

[Matthijs]

lol you count AGR for Gilbert but no FW for Valverde. And as has been pointed out to you, you cant give Paris tours or Agr the same worth as Paris Roubaix. Thats just flawed.

Your whole system is flawed. Why not count E3 and Strade Bianchi for Cancellara too?


Also Freire won GW and Paris-Tours, so presumably that puts him above Cancellara and even with Gilbert (since your counting MSR as = to Paris Tours). but im sure a different system to accomodate this revelation will be quickly thought up.

oops, I thought I forgot stuff. thnx. Any other active rider with at least 2M or a serious sery of classics?

this better?
Overal Classic riders still active:
1. Boonen (5M, GW)
2. Freire (3M, PT, GW)
3. Gilbert (2M, AGR, 2PT) vs. Cancellara (4M) (this whole discussion)
5. Cunego (3M, AGR)
6. Valverde (2M, FW)
7. Vino (2M)

I rank
M > normal classic
AGR/PT > FW/GW (I know GW can be disputed as classic, not that much influence on this ranking though)
E3 and Strade Bianche are good races, but other some league and no history of course

maybe fair to put in worlds RR too:
1. Freire (3W, 3MSR, PT, GW)
2. Boonen (W, 5M's, GW)
3. Gilbert (2GdL, AGR, 2PT) vs. Cancellara (4M's) (this whole discussion)
5. Cunego (3GdL, AGR)
6. Di Luca (LBL, GdL, AGR, FW)
7. Vino (2LBL, AGR)
8. Valverde (2LBL, FW)
9. Ballan(W, RvV)
10. Evans (W, FW)

and if Valverde is still in, di Luca maybe should be in too?
worlds > Monument, but not that much so Evans Worlds + Fleche < Vino's 2 LBL

 

[jens_attacks]

vino also won amstel gold race.

 

[The Hitch]

oops, I thought I forgot stuff. thnx. Any other active rider with at least 2M or a serious sery of classics?

this better?
Overal Classic riders still active:
1. Boonen (5M, GW)
2. Freire (3M, PT, GW)
3. Gilbert (2M, AGR, 2PT) vs. Cancellara (4M) (this whole discussion)
5. Cunego (3M, AGR)
6. Valverde (2M, FW)
7. Vino (2M)

I rank
M > normal classic
AGR/PT > FW/GW (I know GW can be disputed as classic, not that much influence on this ranking though)
E3 and Strade Bianche are good races, but other some league and no history of course

maybe fair to put in worlds RR too:
1. Freire (3W, 3MSR, PT, GW)
2. Boonen (W, 5M's, GW)
3. Gilbert (2GdL, AGR, 2PT) vs. Cancellara (4M's) (this whole discussion)
5. Cunego (3GdL, AGR)
6. Valverde (2LBL, FW)
7. Ballan(W, RvV)
8. Vino (2LBL)
9. Evans (W, FW)

worlds > Monument, but not that much so Evans Worlds + Fleche < Vino's 2 LBL

Much better