Miami doping ring implicates MLB stars

[Oldman]

I've done a lot of talking to media types who do spend time on the doping/sports law beats, and a few people in the league, and it looks like MLB has gotten serious about doping. It will obviously take til the next CBA to change the rules, but popping their superstars isn't a league that hides doping; that's the difference between the NFL (popping linemen, not QBs/RBs) and the MLB. The NHL from what Ive been able to find is on the same arc as MLB but a couple years behind. They added a ton of language for new antidoping measures in the new CBA, though the exact language isnt available to the public yet, just the "memorandum of understanding" that encapsulates what will be covered. random in-season HGH committee to evaluate, everything else on line already. HGH committee should have answers in the next year, likely testing the year after that. Its not enough but its going to wind up being closer to MLB than NFL.

Quite agree. The media exposure that comes with this does have a few apologists on talk radio but that's akin to getting all of your political "truths" on Fox. As I said on another thread the image of former NFL stars as physical and emotional cripples is starting to wake Joe Fan up. Many still want their kids to be the next big sports star at all costs but most understand this is no longer just a Pro Sports thing. Amateurs are risking their health for no money and that is not as acceptable as last week.

 

[Fatclimber]

Yes, it is kind of funny that people would get worked up over that. Why be offended by Tygart's statement?

Even if it is true, the title may be as fleeting as an Armstrong TdF win.

Cycling can't win even when it is losing.

Dave.

It was a broad and far reaching statement that cannot be proven. The truth needs no embellishment & that's what did with that statement. It's been brought up several times and I'm just stating my opinion while realizing that no, it's impact is not all that large. Tygart has done an excellent job and this is just one tactic I don't agree with.

 

[zlev11]

the problem with him saying that completely disregards the pre-Festina team doping programs that were at least just as professional and sophisticated as the Postal program, if not even more so.

 

[rata de sentina]

the problem with him saying that completely disregards the pre-Festina team doping programs that were at least just as professional and sophisticated as the Postal program, if not even more so.

Got any basis for that, no I thought not. At issue is a doping program in the context of an increased level of regulatory scrutiny. So the sophistication comes from enhanced performance and detection avoidance.

 

[131313]

This is exactly what comes to mind when hearing Tygart referring to the most professionalized, successful, sophisticated, yadda, yadda, doping program sport has ever seen by dopewadstrong. I have a hunch that any of the football teams (American) that have played in the last 3 weeks have programs that would supersede sh!tf@cestong's program in all areas mentioned quite easily.

Have any of those teams gained such a competitive advantage through cheating that they took a mediocre team and won 7 consecutive Super Bowls or Word Series? Wake me up when that happens. Until then, I'll go with Tygart and LeMond: Armstrong is the biggest fraud.

the problem with him saying that completely disregards the pre-Festina team doping programs that were at least just as professional and sophisticated as the Postal program, if not even more so.

See above... I missed the part where Festina won multiple consecutive Grand Tours with a classics rider. If they were "as sophisticated" as Postal, they would have had the same success. They were no where close.

 

[Fatclimber]

Have any of those teams gained such a competitive advantage through cheating that they took a mediocre team and won 7 consecutive Super Bowls or Word Series? Wake me up when that happens. Until then, I'll go with Tygart and LeMond: Armstrong is the biggest fraud.

See above... I missed the part where Festina won multiple consecutive Grand Tours with a classics rider. If they were "as sophisticated" as Postal, they would have had the same success. They were no where close.

They gained no competitive advantage because everybody does it, level playing field. Once again we come back to the idea of how success is measured. Yeah, USPS won a particular race on the calendar 7 times in a row. But Dr. M put the dollar amount at over $100 million, that is the average annual payroll for an NFL team. I will need to research further the monetary gain for winning the championship or even a playoff game.

 

[D-Queued]

Got any basis for that, no I thought not. At issue is a doping program in the context of an increased level of regulatory scrutiny. So the sophistication comes from enhanced performance and detection avoidance.

^^^ Exactly.

Festina and pre-Festina programs were remarkably unsophisticated.

Dave.

 

[zlev11]

See above... I missed the part where Festina won multiple consecutive Grand Tours with a classics rider. If they were "as sophisticated" as Postal, they would have had the same success. They were no where close.

it has nothing to do with their success. by in large the Postal program seems like it was on the same scale as the pre-Festina team doping setups. the reason they were so successful was probably due to the fact that they were the only ones still with organized team doping after Festina. reading both Breaking The Chain and the reasoned decision/Tyler's book it doesn't seem like there was a whole lot of difference in terms of the magnitude of the programs between Postal circa 2000 and Festina '97. they had to do the same kind of stuff to avoid testing positive and used the same drugs, etc.

 

[DirtyWorks]

They gained no competitive advantage because everybody does it, level playing field. .

No matter how many times this is posted it is still not true.

Too many trolls try variations on it and then My humor detector goes offline!!

Cheers

 

[Fatclimber]

No matter how many times this is posted it is still not true.

I know, I figured the irony would be blatant enough to be recognized by any living breathing cycling fan. I should have put a in there.

 

[manafana]

came across this when doing bit on fuentes, odensik the tennis player blew the whistle on this when he caught carrying doping products. lots of MLB players. Least they didnt hold back il give the USA that.

 

[blackcat]

it has nothing to do with their success. by in large the Postal program seems like it was on the same scale as the pre-Festina team doping setups. the reason they were so successful was probably due to the fact that they were the only ones still with organized team doping after Festina. reading both Breaking The Chain and the reasoned decision/Tyler's book it doesn't seem like there was a whole lot of difference in terms of the magnitude of the programs between Postal circa 2000 and Festina '97. they had to do the same kind of stuff to avoid testing positive and used the same drugs, etc.

more science at USPS.

reading Breaking the Chain and about Kelme's list and Manzano, they would have overdosed with strichnine had it been in their medicine cabinent. they took anything and everything.

atleast USPS streamlined their products. Ok, might have taken some dangerous stuff when used injudiciously, like insulin. But they were not taking copious artificial hemoglobin and the like

 

[blackcat]

came across this when doing bit on fuentes, odensik the tennis player blew the whistle on this when he caught carrying doping products. lots of MLB players. Least they didnt hold back il give the USA that.

gees the US clique hate Odesnik. But a useful idiot he was insofar as he was the scapegoat. All of the US players show signs on their physiognomy of gh use. Roddick's comments were amusing.

It is tough for folks with very little athletic talents, in the 80-200 band in tennis. would need a monster program of more than a little gh and testo to start competing now days. cant do the thomas muster, jim courier, grind it out type wins to the top 5.

that said, at 30 David Ferrer has risen the ranks with no weapons but a gritty determination and never give up attitude. he has solid if not mediocre groundstrokes from the back of the court, but he has little trouble knocking out a 205kmph serve. reminds me of a 18yo Lleyton Hewitt but with a major program, to build that physical unit over a decade.

 

[ultimobici]

This is exactly what comes to mind when hearing Tygart referring to the most professionalized, successful, sophisticated, yadda, yadda, doping program sport has ever seen by dopewadstrong. I have a hunch that any of the football teams (American) that have played in the last 3 weeks have programs that would supersede sh!tf@cestong's program in all areas mentioned quite easily.

Except that LA's program was to win the biggest single sporting event worldwide, rather than a domestic event.

The authorities don't need to be bought off in Football, nor are there the likes of Ballaster, Walsh, L'Equipe & the Sunday Times snapping at the sport's heels.

In keeping with the sport's entire basis, Football doesn't need to have sophisticated programs, plain & simple.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

gees the US clique hate Odesnik. But a useful idiot he was insofar as he was the scapegoat. All of the US players show signs on their physiognomy of gh use. Roddick's comments were amusing.

It is tough for folks with very little athletic talents, in the 80-200 band in tennis. would need a monster program of more than a little gh and testo to start competing now days. cant do the thomas muster, jim courier, grind it out type wins to the top 5.

that said, at 30 David Ferrer has risen the ranks with no weapons but a gritty determination and never give up attitude. he has solid if not mediocre groundstrokes from the back of the court, but he has little trouble knocking out a 205kmph serve. reminds me of a 18yo Lleyton Hewitt but with a major program, to build that physical unit over a decade.

I think Hewitt was one of the last retrievers (who had great passing shots) who was natural (although he might not have been).

As much as anything retrievers like Nadal and Ferrer hardly make any unforced errors these days. Victor Conte said at the time of Balco that he estimated 80% of baseball players used stimulants before a match and I'd guess the testing is so bad in tennis that players are doing the same.

 

[blackcat]

I think Hewitt was one of the last retrievers (who had great passing shots) who was natural (although he might not have been).

As much as anything retrievers like Nadal and Ferrer hardly make any unforced errors these days. Victor Conte said at the time of Balco that he estimated 80% of baseball players used stimulants before a match and I'd guess the testing is so bad in tennis that players are doing the same.

I "thought" he was natural too. And the physiognomy has only recently (18 months) shown signs of hgh augmentation, when if "unnatural" this would have been 6 or 7 years hence.

But I think the father is cut from the cloth of the bad sporting parent. I cannot see him not getting a little aid, in his formative years. same with rafter. I always just assumed those two were snow white.

 

[thehog]

NEW YORK -- Major League Baseball will seek to suspend about 20 players connected to the Miami-area clinic at the heart of an ongoing performance-enhancing drug scandal, including Alex Rodriguez and Ryan Braun, possibly within the next few weeks, "Outside the Lines" has learned.

If the suspensions are upheld, the performance-enhancing drug scandal would be the largest in American sports history.

Tony Bosch, founder of the now-shuttered Biogenesis of America, reached an agreement this week to cooperate with MLB's investigation, two sources told "Outside the Lines," giving MLB the ammunition officials believe they need to suspend the players.

Probably should shut the league down.

 

[Merckx index]

What is really interesting about this, and relevant to cycling, is the proposal to double the suspension--albeit to a still slap on the wrist 100 games, a little more than half a season--because the players lied about it:

One source familiar with the case said the commissioner's office might seek 100-game suspensions for Rodriguez, Braun and other players, the penalty for a second doping offense. The argument, the source said, is that the players' connection to Bosch constitutes one offense, and previous statements to MLB officials denying any such connection or the use of PEDs constitute another. Bosch and his attorneys did not return several calls. MLB officials refused to comment when reached Tuesday.

This is really huge, involving several of the best, or once-were-the-best, stars in the game, like A-Rod and Braun. And maybe even Robinson Cano, who has a Mr. Nice Guy rep that could absolutely shatter fans if he is sanctioned. Several of the players have previous doping offenses, which raises the possibility that they could be three strikes and out.

Some in the Clinic have suggested riders should get a more lenient sentence if they confess. This is basically the view that this proposal is endorsing, except leniency is relative to a much harsher regular sentence.

 

[Random Direction]

Title on ESPN nailed it . http://m.espn.go.com/wireless/index?w=1cycb&i=COM

 

[DirtyWorks]

This is really huge, involving several of the best, or once-were-the-best, stars in the game, like A-Rod and Braun. And maybe even Robinson Cano, who has a Mr. Nice Guy rep that could absolutely shatter fans if he is sanctioned. Several of the players have previous doping offenses, which raises the possibility that they could be three strikes and out.

I would be surprised to see MLB take the revenue hit of banning/sanctioning players who fill seats. The stadiums are quite a bit smaller now than decades past and the seats much more expensive.

I want to be wrong. Please, MLB, prove me wrong.

 

[Gav McL]

If this report is correct it's great to see MLB being proactive. That's certainly not an adjective you could use to describe the NFL or the NBA.

 

[Andynonomous]

I "thought" he was natural too. And the physiognomy has only recently (18 months) shown signs of hgh augmentation, when if "unnatural" this would have been 6 or 7 years hence.

But I think the father is cut from the cloth of the bad sporting parent. I cannot see him not getting a little aid, in his formative years. same with rafter. I always just assumed those two were snow white.

Hewitt (70% likely doper imo)
- Had an enormous amount of stamina
- Was associated with Brad Gilbert
- Had many long, unexplained absences from the tour

Ferrer (95% likely doper imo)
- Spanish
- Very late career success, despite being a defensive minded player (most defensive minded players, peak early - ie. Michael Chang, Jim Courier, Bjorn Borg, Mats Wilander,...)
- Enormous stamina

Nadal (99.9% likely doper imo)
- WAAAAY too much circumstantial evidence to list here (I have listed some of this stuff before, just read the Nadal threads for more info)

 

[Andynonomous]

If this report is correct it's great to see MLB being proactive. That's certainly not an adjective you could use to describe the NFL or the NBA.

Although there are big holes in their testing regime, MLB does actually appear to show some will to catch the CHEATS. The only thing preventing them from doing more, is the players union. MLB has MUCH more transparency than ITF, UCI, FIFA, and other sports organizations, imo.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Victor Conte Interview

Conte claims 50% of MLB using some version of Testosterone. Overall, very sensible stuff from Victor.

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=9346514

 

[Oldman]

Although there are big holes in their testing regime, MLB does actually appear to show some will to catch the CHEATS. The only thing preventing them from doing more, is the players union. MLB has MUCH more transparency than ITF, UCI, FIFA, and other sports organizations, imo.

Note that, like the big cycling busts it was based on outside investigation into a clinic rather than actual testing. Still, the economic impact to a suspended player making $10mil + is huge.
Now the NBA...