Michael Rogers positive for clenbuterol

[frenchfry]

Why bother with the USADA thing? He has already admitted to working with Ferrari. Ferrari provides details on dosing PEDs. Michele is a high roller, he is not interested in advising people on how to become the best in the world through "training with power", he tells you when to use PEDs for maximum benefit and minimum risk.

Name one clean athlete he has worked with? Why, as an AIS alumni would you go to Ferrari and spend 10% of your wage when you can get expert advice in Varese? Why, as a clean athlete would you seek and fund the most notorious doping facilitator in the sport who has actively deprived you of fame and financial reward?

Ferrari = Doping, the idea that a "clean athlete" pays Michele Ferrari for training advice unrelated to doping is ridiculous, and even entertaining the thought that Ferrari =/= doping perpetuates that myth.

As that scumbag Virenque said, working with Ferrari is like riding with saucepans attached to your but!.

 

[Benotti69]

Your numbers are off. Breyne was positive on a different race in China than the ToB. But I will grant you that I would have expected more positives than we currently have. On the other hand if Race Radio is correct (check his twitter) that the UCI didn't check for clen in China during the ToB, it becomes a lot less unlikely that Rogers is the only one who gets caught out by winning a few days later in Japan, where they did check for clen. How many of the riders coming of the back of the ToB did they check in Japan?

Well if the UCI didn't check for Clen, which was stupid, it give's riders free reign to use it.

If UCI still has samples then it wouldn't be hard to find contamination as the samples would show the same levels of clen concentration.

As to the bolded, thanks for proving my point. Your entitled to feel that way, as I am to feel differently, without one point of view being better than the other mind you. I can understand why you would say that, however I think you are wrong.

So a guy who dopes should continue to ride because he got caught for a contamination (i doubt it as the figures dont prove that and Rogers is a doper) and not caught for other times. I dont care when the dopers get caught as long as they get caught and Rogers is a doper.

Sad to see fans want to let dopers continue in the sport.

 

[veganrob]

I believe UCI already contradicted RR claim of no testing. Which is a pretty stupid statement on his part as we have a positive. And we will never know for certain if it is doping or tainted meat because Rogers will never, never admit to cheating. Has there ever been a rider come out and admit guilt immediately after getting caught?
Rogers has played the system long enough and is not going to **** in the soup. He is Omerta at its strongest. If he was to get done in by tainted meat, oh well. Now I am not advocating that an innocent rider that is charged should go down. But, it is the guys like Rogers that have cheated, made their money and want to get out without scandal and do absolutely nothing for the future good of the sport.
Sorry, adios Mick. Don't let the door hit you in the ***.

 

[Master50]

Clen is easily detected. Contador's case demonstrated that. Why then would anyone choose to take it in race season rather than under a training block with enough time to clear it? That is also a risk because of out of competition testing.
I can see the circling of the dogs because there is the smell of blood but contamination stands up to the logical test. Intentional ingestion seems unlikely to me. Of course the haters have strict liability to bolster their cause. I think that in this case even the haters are acknowledging contamination is a possibility coming out of China. Can any doctors explain what a rider can gain in a week, assuming he was clen free after the last race in China? Why does a rider near the end of the season take this drug intentionally? I need to understand that before I believe it is intentional. It is doping by the rules but I can't see why he would do it on purpose and no one has talked that to my satisfaction.

 

[SundayRider]

Clen is easily detected. Contador's case demonstrated that. Why then would anyone choose to take it in race season rather than under a training block with enough time to clear it? That is also a risk because of out of competition testing.
I can see the circling of the dogs because there is the smell of blood but contamination stands up to the logical test. Intentional ingestion seems unlikely to me. Of course the haters have strict liability to bolster their cause. I think that in this case even the haters are acknowledging contamination is a possibility coming out of China. Can any doctors explain what a rider can gain in a week, assuming he was clen free after the last race in China? Why does a rider near the end of the season take this drug intentionally? I need to understand that before I believe it is intentional. It is doping by the rules but I can't see why he would do it on purpose and no one has talked that to my satisfaction.

Most people just agree that it is poetic justice that a Ferrari client has been popped.

 

[sniper]

Clen is easily detected. Contador's case demonstrated that. Why then would anyone choose to take it in race season rather than under a training block with enough time to clear it? That is also a risk because of out of competition testing.
I can see the circling of the dogs because there is the smell of blood but contamination stands up to the logical test. Intentional ingestion seems unlikely to me. Of course the haters have strict liability to bolster their cause. I think that in this case even the haters are acknowledging contamination is a possibility coming out of China. Can any doctors explain what a rider can gain in a week, assuming he was clen free after the last race in China? Why does a rider near the end of the season take this drug intentionally? I need to understand that before I believe it is intentional. It is doping by the rules but I can't see why he would do it on purpose and no one has talked that to my satisfaction.

I agree it would be stupid and perhaps illogical.
But the point your omitting is that if it was unintentionally ingested, that shouldnt be too hard to prove.
Is Rogers taking the logical steps to prove his innocence, such as having his diner table colleagues tested for clen?
Ovtcharov did that immediately and was exonerated.

 

[DirtyWorks]

... I think that in this case even the haters are acknowledging contamination is a possibility coming out of China.

The only way that would make any sense is if Rogers had a personal chef/meals prepared exclusively for him. That is doubtful. See sniper's comment above.

If other athletes on his team tested positive, then I'd believe it was food supply related.

It is doping by the rules but I can't see why he would do it on purpose and no one has talked that to my satisfaction.

One more time: The non-technical explanation of PED benefits of using Clen are improved oxygen transport, improved muscle rebuilding, and over some time "burns" fat. On top of that, it's easy to use. The first two benefits are almost immediate. It seems like a strong candidate for endurance athlete use.

 

[Benotti69]

Clen is easily detected. Contador's case demonstrated that. Why then would anyone choose to take it in race season rather than under a training block with enough time to clear it? That is also a risk because of out of competition testing.
I can see the circling of the dogs because there is the smell of blood but contamination stands up to the logical test. Intentional ingestion seems unlikely to me. Of course the haters have strict liability to bolster their cause. I think that in this case even the haters are acknowledging contamination is a possibility coming out of China. Can any doctors explain what a rider can gain in a week, assuming he was clen free after the last race in China? Why does a rider near the end of the season take this drug intentionally? I need to understand that before I believe it is intentional. It is doping by the rules but I can't see why he would do it on purpose and no one has talked that to my satisfaction.

Do you understand Performance enhancing Drugs? They gains are obviously real otherwise would they take them?

It is not looking like contamination as Rogers/Saxo is not offering others for testing, i believe hair samples can be taken to test for clen.

That people still jump to the defence of riders like Rogers shows why the sport still has a culture of doping. Too many accept the BS teams and riders spew as excuses.

 

[timmers]

I agree it would be stupid and perhaps illogical.
But the point your omitting is that if it was unintentionally ingested, that shouldnt be too hard to prove.
Is Rogers taking the logical steps to prove his innocence, such as having his diner table colleagues tested for clen?
Ovtcharov did that immediately and was exonerated.

Wouldn't it be to late given the short time it takes for Clen to clear ones system?

Someone mentioned hair testing but does that work and is it an accepted testing method?

It must be difficult for Rodgers as Contador's case shows that unintentional due to food contamination won't wash and will cost him a fortune in lawyers fees and still lead to suspension.

 

[SundayRider]

Do you understand Performance enhancing Drugs? They gains are obviously real otherwise would they take them?

It is not looking like contamination as Rogers/Saxo is not offering others for testing, i believe hair samples can be taken to test for clen.

That people still jump to the defence of riders like Rogers shows why the sport still has a culture of doping. Too many accept the BS teams and riders spew as excuses.

I read that if they test hair and it is found then basically it would not be food contamination it would indicate intentional PED use.

 

[zigmeister]

He means, WTF is a guy testing positive for? I doped for years and never troubled a lab! The UCI has a lot to anwser for by testing guys and actually allowing them to test positive.

Ok maybe so.

Here is a simple solution for meat/protein...just bring some big tubs of your favorite whey protein isolate along, eat that daily guys and stick with veggies/rice...good to go.

Just don't eat the meat.

Considering the budget of these teams, the costs just to get over to China, with your equipment to race $$$$, what is a few 30lb boxes of protein powder mix and other dry items that won't have clen (hopefully, who knows where companies source their raw materials from).

With that said, if you are going to require your world tour teams to go and compete, the UCI does have some responsibility other than just saying, hey, meat could be contaminated....what else is suspect and shouldn't be consumed while over there? List could go on and on.

 

[sniper]

I read that if they test hair and it is found then basically it would not be food contamination it would indicate intentional PED use.

Part of Ovtcharov’s defence was the hair test he underwent. A single, small determination of Clenbuterol is presumably what would be seen in the case of accidental contamination, while a larger dose could be indicative of deliberate use.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/7...Clenbuterol-case-dismissal.aspx#ixzz2oPtxsmEN

edit: it is indeed unclear. Another article says the hairanalysis must show zero traces of clen in the case of accidental ingestion.

 

[DirtyWorks]

It must be difficult for Rodgers as Contador's case shows that unintentional due to food contamination won't wash and will cost him a fortune in lawyers fees and still lead to suspension.

A little clarification on the bolded. My recollection is the CAS decision suggested Contador's defense was "food" and not "supplements" while CAS came back and said, "Must have been supplements.." So, there's actually no definitive answer.

 

[sniper]

A little clarification on the bolded. My recollection is the CAS decision suggested Contador's defense was "food" and not "supplements" while CAS came back and said, "Must have been supplements.."

true.
poor Alberto.
It was probably the UCI who recommended him the contaminated meat defense immediately after the positive.
In hindsight, Bertie will regret having ever tried to clinch a deal with UCI.

 

[Master50]

Do you understand Performance enhancing Drugs? They gains are obviously real otherwise would they take them?

It is not looking like contamination as Rogers/Saxo is not offering others for testing, i believe hair samples can be taken to test for clen.

That people still jump to the defence of riders like Rogers shows why the sport still has a culture of doping. Too many accept the BS teams and riders spew as excuses.

Duh yeah I even worked a brief period in anti doping but I found the entire process to bother me. I could not get comfortable with watching people pee. I did not like the process or the invasion so I moved on from that. In the real world I only worked 1 cycling event as an anti doping witness.
You claim to understand positives from taking an easily detectable performance enhancing substance and then intentionally wining the race while under it's influence? Clen has a reasonable short 1/2 life but it is longer than a few days. This is the kind of drug you would take, but not an expert doper. He had a solid expectation to be tested so all he had to do was falter near the finish and avoid the doping charge. I know you will say he got stupid with victory so close.
Poor racers and Gran Fondo riders that don't expect to be tested are the people that take this drug for performance enhancement. That is the part of this thread that does not make sense to me. I already know who decided it was intentional. the same people that claim all doping is intentional and all pros are dopers. I was just looking for some logical explanation for it and I see I mostly get because they are bike racers as the default answer.
It makes no sense to me that Rogers would use this drug rather than a safer method if he was taking any drugs intentionally. that does not compute.
As for the suggestion they get the entire team down to the lab. When was the test performed and how long did the test take? add that spread and testing his team mates would not show anything. A hair sample might help if this drug deposits in growing hair. It would be very close to the root with nothing further up the shaft. Mick has longer hair. Now if that was available to help him and he refused I might give the idea he was intentionally doping more weight but I believe he may have reasonable grounds to support the contamination defence.

 

[Benotti69]

Duh yeah I even worked a brief period in anti doping but I found the entire process to bother me. I could not get comfortable with watching people pee. I did not like the process or the invasion so I moved on from that. In the real world I only worked 1 cycling event as an anti doping witness.
You claim to understand positives from taking an easily detectable performance enhancing substance and then intentionally wining the race while under it's influence? Clen has a reasonable short 1/2 life but it is longer than a few days. This is the kind of drug you would take, but not an expert doper. He had a solid expectation to be tested so all he had to do was falter near the finish and avoid the doping charge. I know you will say he got stupid with victory so close.
Poor racers and Gran Fondo riders that don't expect to be tested are the people that take this drug for performance enhancement. That is the part of this thread that does not make sense to me. I already know who decided it was intentional. the same people that claim all doping is intentional and all pros are dopers. I was just looking for some logical explanation for it and I see I mostly get because they are bike racers as the default answer.
It makes no sense to me that Rogers would use this drug rather than a safer method if he was taking any drugs intentionally. that does not compute.
As for the suggestion they get the entire team down to the lab. When was the test performed and how long did the test take? add that spread and testing his team mates would not show anything. A hair sample might help if this drug deposits in growing hair. It would be very close to the root with nothing further up the shaft. Mick has longer hair. Now if that was available to help him and he refused I might give the idea he was intentionally doping more weight but I believe he may have reasonable grounds to support the contamination defence.

at the end of the day, Rogers has 2 years coming and fully deserved.

 

[Merckx index]

ToB was 5 stages, Minimum of 3 riders a day tested. So that is 15 riders and only 1 tested positive for Clen, Breyne.




So we have 1 rider (Breyne) out of 198 of which 50% ate meat testing positive from a minimum of 15 tests. I dont think that anyone can claim contamination from those figures.

.

I'm not sure where you get the 5O% figure, but assuming it's in the ballpark, it doesn't necessarily indicate there should be more than one positive from contaminated meat. If everyone ate the same tainted meat, sure. But I assume riders from different teams ate meat from different sources. Given, as I said before, that even in China most meat is probably not highly contaminated--the German study I believe found very low levels in the returning travellers--it's possible that there would be only one positive. Possible based on what we know so far, that could change if we get more details.

You can't compare this to the Contador case, as Spanish meat is inspected. As I said before, we could put a maximum level of CB per kg of any meat AC ate, can't do that with Rogers. Many of us, though, criticized the conclusion that it was a supplement that AC took, and Contador himself claimed he didn't take any supplements during that TDF.

Wrt the hair test, CB from any source will turn up in hair. The value of the test is that it reveals CB that might have been ingested months before, preceding any exposure to contaminated meat. Generally, it requires chronic use, which is what you expect a rider to be doing if he's using it for PE, for enough to show up in hair to be detected. A single dose from contaminated meat probably would not be detectable, though it would probably depend on how heavy the contamination was.

Though I have little doubt that Rogers is a long-time doper, I hope he appeals. I would like to see this enantiomer test used. Like the DEHP or plasticizer test, it hasn't been approved as a standalone test, but it ought to be admissible as supplementary evidence. Rogers has nothing to lose, as a low ratio indicates meat contamination, whereas a high ratio can be explained either as doping, or as meat from cattle dosed right up to slaughter. China, though, might have some data on the likely proportion of meat in that category.

 

[Benotti69]

I'm not sure where you get the 5O% figure,

Matt Brammier tweeted it.

but assuming it's in the ballpark, it doesn't necessarily indicate there should be more than one positive from contaminated meat. If everyone ate the same tainted meat, sure. But I assume riders from different teams ate meat from different sources. Given, as I said before, that even in China most meat is probably not highly contaminated--the German study I believe found very low levels in the returning travellers--it's possible that there would be only one positive. Possible based on what we know so far, that could change if we get more details.

You can't compare this to the Contador case, as Spanish meat is inspected. As I said before, we could put a maximum level of CB per kg of any meat AC ate, can't do that with Rogers. Many of us, though, criticized the conclusion that it was a supplement that AC took, and Contador himself claimed he didn't take any supplements during that TDF.

Wrt the hair test, CB from any source will turn up in hair. The value of the test is that it reveals CB that might have been ingested months before, preceding any exposure to contaminated meat. Generally, it requires chronic use, which is what you expect a rider to be doing if he's using it for PE, for enough to show up in hair to be detected. A single dose from contaminated meat probably would not be detectable, though it would probably depend on how heavy the contamination was.

Though I have little doubt that Rogers is a long-time doper, I hope he appeals. I would like to see this enantiomer test used. Like the DEHP or plasticizer test, it hasn't been approved as a standalone test, but it ought to be admissible as supplementary evidence. Rogers has nothing to lose, as a low ratio indicates meat contamination, whereas a high ratio can be explained either as doping, or as meat from cattle dosed right up to slaughter. China, though, might have some data on the likely proportion of meat in that category.

Ta for that

Kenny Pryde ‏@KenBobPryde 6h
Chinese clenbuterol duo Jonathan Breyne and Mick Rogers will use the same lawyer, Johnny Maeschalck - who was also Geert Leinders lawyer.

Wonder do Rogers and Breyne use the same dealer..........

 

[sniper]

Wonder do Rogers and Breyne use the same dealer..........

lol

i bet that lawyer came highly recommended.

 

[Franklin]

true.
poor Alberto.
It was probably the UCI who recommended him the contaminated meat defense immediately after the positive.
In hindsight, Bertie will regret having ever tried to clinch a deal with UCI.

Oh nonsense, the UCI had little to do at that stage. There are two reasons:

1. Contamination is a very plausible explanation. Even though the clinic seems to love to deny this, this is a sad truth of current state of meat.
2. As far as I understand; supplements would have landed him a ban anyway.

lol

i bet that lawyer came highly recommended.

Yeah, that's certainly not a proof of guilt either way... but it does show it's a very small world. That said, the amount of lawyers who are used to cycling/doping cases is perhaps small.

 

[Franklin]

at the end of the day, Rogers has 2 years coming and fully deserved.

Do you actually think it's ay-okay to punish someone for a crime he didn't do simply because there's no case to be closed on another crime? Amazing.....

 

[Benotti69]

Do you actually think it's ay-okay to punish someone for a crime he didn't do simply because there's no case to be closed on another crime? Amazing.....

Amazing that you think a doper should get away with doping and go unpunished. Rogers is a doper who worked and may still be working with Ferrari. He deserves a ban for that alone!

So according to the rules, riders are responsible for what they put in their bodies. IF and that is a big IF, Rogers ate contaminated meat, tough, he had enough warnings not to eat meat in China due to clen contamination.

2 years and hopefully he kicks and screams for those 2 years telling everyone about all the doping he knows going on in the peloton.

 

[pastronef]

2 years and hopefully he kicks and screams for those 2 years telling everyone about all the doping he knows going on in the peloton

that won't happen

 

[veganrob]

Do you actually think it's ay-okay to punish someone for a crime he didn't do simply because there's no case to be closed on another crime? Amazing.....

Maybe there should be a adendum to the anti doping policy for Rogers. They could call it the Stupid Clause.

 

[Franklin]

Amazing that you think a doper should get away with doping and go unpunished. Rogers is a doper who worked and may still be working with Ferrari. He deserves a ban for that alone!

Amazing and abhorrent that you even contemplate punishing someone just because you want it so.

Personal justice= lynch mob mentality.
Becauser you know exactly as I do that Rogers is not on trial here for Ferraru, so all your stammering and posturing here is absolutely not relevant to this case.

So according to the rules, riders are responsible for what they put in their bodies. IF and that is a big IF, Rogers ate contaminated meat, tough, he had enough warnings not to eat meat in China due to clen contamination.

Stop making up rules. If it's contamination he walks.

2 years and hopefully he kicks and screams for those 2 years telling everyone about all the doping he knows going on in the peloton.

Yeah man... that will happen

First you want a punishment no matter the guilt, then you fantasize that he will spill all the beans. You are justice on your own it seems. Perhaps introduce waterboarding for everyone you personally know to be doping? Who cares about justice. THEY NEED TO BE PUNISHED.

Sorry Benotti, I'm not the amazing one here. I am square with justice and due prcess. I'm sad to say that you went over the line of the lynch mob by not caring about due process and just making up your own fantasies of how he will squeal and scream.