Mikel Landa Discussion Thread

[Taxus4a]

Re: Re:

I read now that Contador race smart to save energy for the Tour...and he lost 10 minutes in le Tour. He was the same "tired" from the begining till the end"

For that reason he was so smart that tried to follow Landa in Finestre, when it was very difficultt that Landa alone will take more than 2 minutes with a soft climb as Sestrieres ahead if Contador just keep his energies and ride intelligent.

It was his ego who did that, the same that when 5 weeks later he tried to follow Froome in Huy.

Okay .. last season contador tried to gain peak form for the tour by riding the giro and accomplish the doubble. Astanas many many attacks nearly every day made Contador overtrain so he never reached peak form.. And btw froome coudnt even finish the Vuelta after the tour, and Nibali couldnt do the giro vuelta doubble, so i think winning the giro and a 5 place in the tour is an okay result. An on the Sestrieres stage contador had an 5' 15 advantage over landa.. why follow and risk going into the red when he could just sid up and go op the climb at his own tempo

And yeah the mortirolo climb was impressive.. he did the climb nearly one min faster than landa

Froome didnt finish Vuelta fro a crash, my friend, he was the clear favourite and IMo he would have won la Vuelta with 5 minutes difference without that crash, but that is just especulation, of course, but he showed in cumbre del sol he was ready to win, and he had the ITT. at least you have to say you never knows. Valverde did 4 in the Tour and 3rd in la Vuelta the previou year. To win Giro and be 5th in le Tour is a good result, but he was thinking to be in shape to win le Tour, so if he didnt give everything to win le Giro, otr of he wanst in his best hape, his result in the Giro is very good, but his result in le Tour is quite dissapointing.

At least I dont think Contador say ever he wnst in the Giro at his best and he didnt give everything.

Haha yeah okay missed the part about froome crashing Also i have to know do you know Landa ? you mention in some of yout post that you talk to him [/quote]

Just I know a little, we are not friends, he is friend of a friend of mine, and he knows me mainly as the friend of... I have talked with Landa just four times, and as well becoue I collaborate for a basque media,a blog. But the last time i talked at his hotel in Burgos I talked more time, about his Giro, my impressions about Mortirolo climb, and his new contract with SKY (then it wanst official, and he even didnt told mewas sure KY, but he did in some way and it was almost official).

I am this crazy man:

 

[blackmamba]

OK then its atleast understandale your opinions about Landa and the Giro since your obviously not objective

On another note a cool picture

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

OK then its atleast understandale your opinions about Landa and the Giro since your obviously not objective

On another note a cool picture

You dont exactly strike me as super objective either. A very few are when discussing favourite riders

 

[Taxus4a]

Re:

OK then its atleast understandale your opinions about Landa and the Giro since your obviously not objective

On another note a cool picture

I could be not very objetive with Uran, but even with him, i tried always to be objetive.

I am analizing cycling since 25 years ago, and when Iwritte something is objetive analisys. You are not objetive if you font give arguments, but I argue all that I writte.

What I see here is poor arguments when people talk about Contador, so for that reason I think some people is not objetive.

I have been much more Mayo fan that I could be of Landa (who is a rider that I like, yes, and if you ask me today about Mayo you can read how I dont like him.

I sais yesterday today wanst a good day for Landa, I said today SKy took too much risk by signing Landa for those money, becouse he is a fraguile rider afected by presure, so if you thing that is not objetive is your opinion...I have said always that Quintana hjas been always a point about Landam ince that Tour d L Avenir, Madrid,...
I always though my friend mikelarri wanst objetive when he talked about his friend, first time I met Landa I didnt take too much care of him, he was a nice man but no more, despite my friend told me wonderfull things about his abilities, I though it was another basque promise more. Basque people used to exagerate with his talented people. But time by time all that he told me was becoming reality and the way he won in Neila impressed me. Mikelarri tell me usually how he fels before a race, his problems,... and when he was ok he did amazing performances.If you want to analyze objetively with me, no problem, lest see videos of the Giro and tell me why what I say is a bad argument. Other way you can just shup up. For me is first objetivity and truth than the rest of the things of the world. I love cycling, not this rider or this other... when I see bad arguments I argue againts.

cheers!

 

[Taxus4a]

But if you are a Contador fan, maybe you like this picture I took here in my town, Belorado. So a present for you. I always encourage Contador, as every cyclist, dont worry.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-jHP9cQxfNWQ/VBcHt2hikXI/AAAAAAAAAR0/MXX7e6LMyI8/s1600/24.jpg

 

[Poursuivant]

Nice pics taxus

RE; Giro 2015. The way Astana rode so hard, and with Tinkoff being relatively weak definitely played a part in Contador being tired at the Tour, but I remember a stage after Astana tried to distance him on Mortitolo, where Contador attacked when Astana were caught behind a crash, as a way of revenge. Stage 18 it was.

In my opinion, to win Giro - Tour double, you need talent, luck, and I honestly think you need a weakened field in one of the GT's, ideally the Tour.

 

[blackmamba]

Was ment as a little dig nothing else.

But in all honesty your one of the most objective ones here mainly beacuse you rely on what we know and whats proven stats/facts not only yadayada your own thoughts but more a clever mix of whats proven facts/stats and analyzing from there I would say. And not only swada made up thoughts which lack the bigger picture and totally contradict facts even, you seem to have a huge knowledge about cycling as a whole in general so chapou for that! (dont mistake that with im always agreeing with you, which im not but in more cases rather than not I do.)

A even better picture

Im going to the TDF this year aswell and gonne follow the entire last 2 weeks, will make sure to take alot of pictures with alot of different riders! But unlike you I dont cheer for every rider

 

[Cannibal72]

Re:

Nice pics taxus

RE; Giro 2015. The way Astana rode so hard, and with Tinkoff being relatively weak definitely played a part in Contador being tired at the Tour, but I remember a stage after Astana tried to distance him on Mortitolo, where Contador attacked when Astana were caught behind a crash, as a way of revenge. Stage 18 it was.

In my opinion, to win Giro - Tour double, you need talent, luck, and I honestly think you need a weakened field in one of the GT's, ideally the Tour.

I agree with this, and so looked into the statistics some time ago, and found this rather striking fact: only one Giro winner has gone on to beat the defending champion at the Tour, and that win can barely be discussed in this forum.

Coppi 1949: 1948 winner Bartali was on the Italy team and worked for Coppi.
Coppi 1952: 1951 winner Koblet was injured and did not start.
Anquetil 1964: 1963 winner was Anquetil himself.
Merckx 1970: 1969 winner was Merckx himself.
Merckx 1972: 1971 winner was Merckx himself.
Merckx 1974: 1973 winner Ocaña was fired by his team before the race.
Hinault 1982: 1981 winner was Hinault himself.
Hinault 1985: 1984 winner Fignon was injured.
Roche 1987: 1986 winner LeMond was shot.
Indurain 1992: 1991 winner was Indurain himself.
Indurain 1993: 1992 winner was Indurain himself.
Pantani 1998: 1997 winner Ullrich was second, yeah....but it's an incredibly hard race to take seriously.

What I think this shows is that you either need to be dominant to the point of invincible in GTs (Anquetil, Merckx, Hianult, Indurain), the beneficiary of a weakened field (Coppi, Roche, Merckx 73, Hinault 85), or be Marco Pantani. It's not something a great rider like Contador can just do, especially given that the field today is rather broader and more even than it was, say, in the early 1990s.

 

[Taxus4a]

Re:

Was ment as a little dig nothing else.

But in all honesty your one of the most objective ones here mainly beacuse you rely on what we know and whats proven stats/facts not only yadayada your own thoughts but more a clever mix of whats proven facts/stats and analyzing from there I would say. And not only swada made up thoughts which lack the bigger picture and totally contradict facts even, you seem to have a huge knowledge about cycling as a whole in general so chapou for that! (dont mistake that with im always agreeing with you, which im not but in more cases rather than not I do.)

A even better picture

Im going to the TDF this year aswell and gonne follow the entire last 2 weeks, will make sure to take alot of pictures with alot of different riders! But unlike you I dont cheer for every rider

We are in the forum not just to suck ours d.. but to discuss diferent points of view

Thanks. I think I know a little of this sport, yes, but how someone remerbered a few days ago, I do my mistakes

I have been acredited in Vuelta a España, Vuelta a Burgos and other races. What I see there from pro journalist is that how are you going to be objetive if you try to be friend of all riders and never talk bad becouse other way they dont give yu interviews, or the same with organizers. That is no journalism for me, that is spokeman.

I have talked more with Verona than with Landa, and what I really admire of them, is his ethics, how they understand cycling: talent and sacrify and no more. (Verona is more sacrificated than Landa anyway, Landa is more talented)

 

[Taxus4a]

Indurain got his Giros without his best peak, mainly as preparation for the Tour, Contador last year was at his best shape.

I think is similar for the Tour Vuelta double, something that nobiody still has done with the Vuelta in September, you can win the Tour and later Vuelta, but just if you are a very good rider and you can win Vuelta quite tired.

If most of the main GT contenders go for le Tour,and you are a rider for a Tour podium and you prepare Giro and Vuelta, the normal thing is you win both of them, or at least close, especially if you dont like the first week of le Tour.

Of course has his mertir to win Giro and Vuelta the ame year, but to win Giro Tour or Tour Vuelta has much more, that is what is really difficult,

But always depends of a lot of factors, mainly rivals and how fresh are they. The Giro Nibali won has the samemerit than his Tour, and the last Vuelta after Froome crash is not a big reference.

 

[Taxus4a]

Re:

Nice pics taxus

RE; Giro 2015. The way Astana rode so hard, and with Tinkoff being relatively weak definitely played a part in Contador being tired at the Tour, but I remember a stage after Astana tried to distance him on Mortitolo, where Contador attacked when Astana were caught behind a crash, as a way of revenge. Stage 18 it was.

In my opinion, to win Giro - Tour double, you need talent, luck, and I honestly think you need a weakened field in one of the GT's, ideally the Tour.

Contador wasted his team by trying to controle all the race from the begining, even when he wanst in pink. We could see all the Giro again to discuss this better. That is ok of you have clearly the stronger team of the race. Astana just wasted his team to attack in some key moments. Maybe people remerber Astana more at the front, but was Tinkoff by far who worked more, so they were tired at the end.

 

[blackmamba]

Re: Re:

Nice pics taxus

RE; Giro 2015. The way Astana rode so hard, and with Tinkoff being relatively weak definitely played a part in Contador being tired at the Tour, but I remember a stage after Astana tried to distance him on Mortitolo, where Contador attacked when Astana were caught behind a crash, as a way of revenge. Stage 18 it was.

In my opinion, to win Giro - Tour double, you need talent, luck, and I honestly think you need a weakened field in one of the GT's, ideally the Tour.

Contador wasted his team by trying to controle all the race from the begining, even when he wanst in pink. We could see all the Giro again to discuss this better. That is ok of you have clearly the stronger team of the race. Astana just wasted his team to attack in some key moments. Maybe people remerber Astana more at the front, but was Tinkoff by far who worked more, so they were tired at the end.

I would say its more about the fact that Astana had: Cataldo, Kangert, Landa, Tiralongo as helpers in the mountains and Contador had Kreuziger and Rogers NEITHER of em was at their best form and far from it.(I dont count Basso as we know what happened to him) Contador and Tinkoff had a strong team for the flats but a terrible team for the mountains (mostly beacuse the riders which was designated for beeing his guys in the mountains wasnt in form) and when you compared that to the monsterious team Astana had in the mountains (with riders IN FORM aswell) it becomes even more telling.

Doesnt matter that Contador used his riders early on as you say which also was the case he rode em hard (to stay safe which obviously failed), no way Boaro, Rovny, Juul Jensen will climb like Kangert, Tiralongo, Landa and Cataldo so dont even see the point your trying to make here tbh.

 

[KyoGrey]

I think that the only thing we can all agree is that if Landa had been freed in the Giro after the Mortirolo where he showed he was the strogest rider, he would have been at least 2nd in GC and Winner of the mountain jersey after another win in Sestriere.

The sight of Mikel stopping to tow Aru after destroying everybody up Finestre (including Contador) is one that should revolt every cycling fan.

Landa was prived of making a historic triplet of wins in Madonna di Campiglio, Aprica and Sestrieres btw

 

[dacooley]

Re:

OK then its atleast understandale your opinions about Landa and the Giro since your obviously not objective

On another note a cool picture

and you with massive bertie lobby probably find yourself objective compared to 'these mooney landa fans'? irony at its finest lol

12th july, 2015

No surprise regarding froome, he will be better at the tour as he obvously has scope for improvement but not anything scary or special.....been a long time since that and people seriously needs to wake up and stop living in the past or they will be serious disappointed come TDF

btw, that was one more slice of due objectivity

 

[Hugo Koblet]

Re: Re:

Nice pics taxus

RE; Giro 2015. The way Astana rode so hard, and with Tinkoff being relatively weak definitely played a part in Contador being tired at the Tour, but I remember a stage after Astana tried to distance him on Mortitolo, where Contador attacked when Astana were caught behind a crash, as a way of revenge. Stage 18 it was.

In my opinion, to win Giro - Tour double, you need talent, luck, and I honestly think you need a weakened field in one of the GT's, ideally the Tour.

I agree with this, and so looked into the statistics some time ago, and found this rather striking fact: only one Giro winner has gone on to beat the defending champion at the Tour, and that win can barely be discussed in this forum.

Coppi 1949: 1948 winner Bartali was on the Italy team and worked for Coppi.
Coppi 1952: 1951 winner Koblet was injured and did not start.
Anquetil 1964: 1963 winner was Anquetil himself.
Merckx 1970: 1969 winner was Merckx himself.
Merckx 1972: 1971 winner was Merckx himself.
Merckx 1974: 1973 winner Ocaña was fired by his team before the race.
Hinault 1982: 1981 winner was Hinault himself.
Hinault 1985: 1984 winner Fignon was injured.
Roche 1987: 1986 winner LeMond was shot.
Indurain 1992: 1991 winner was Indurain himself.
Indurain 1993: 1992 winner was Indurain himself.
Pantani 1998: 1997 winner Ullrich was second, yeah....but it's an incredibly hard race to take seriously.

What I think this shows is that you either need to be dominant to the point of invincible in GTs (Anquetil, Merckx, Hianult, Indurain), the beneficiary of a weakened field (Coppi, Roche, Merckx 73, Hinault 85), or be Marco Pantani. It's not something a great rider like Contador can just do, especially given that the field today is rather broader and more even than it was, say, in the early 1990s.

Nice statistics.

However, nowadays the Giro certainly has the weakest lineup of the three Grand Tours. I don't think that last year's Giro was that hard to be honest. The parcours might have been but Contador didn't exactly face strong competition.

 

[Poursuivant]

Re: Re:

Nice pics taxus

RE; Giro 2015. The way Astana rode so hard, and with Tinkoff being relatively weak definitely played a part in Contador being tired at the Tour, but I remember a stage after Astana tried to distance him on Mortitolo, where Contador attacked when Astana were caught behind a crash, as a way of revenge. Stage 18 it was.

In my opinion, to win Giro - Tour double, you need talent, luck, and I honestly think you need a weakened field in one of the GT's, ideally the Tour.

I agree with this, and so looked into the statistics some time ago, and found this rather striking fact: only one Giro winner has gone on to beat the defending champion at the Tour, and that win can barely be discussed in this forum.

Coppi 1949: 1948 winner Bartali was on the Italy team and worked for Coppi.
Coppi 1952: 1951 winner Koblet was injured and did not start.
Anquetil 1964: 1963 winner was Anquetil himself.
Merckx 1970: 1969 winner was Merckx himself.
Merckx 1972: 1971 winner was Merckx himself.
Merckx 1974: 1973 winner Ocaña was fired by his team before the race.
Hinault 1982: 1981 winner was Hinault himself.
Hinault 1985: 1984 winner Fignon was injured.
Roche 1987: 1986 winner LeMond was shot.
Indurain 1992: 1991 winner was Indurain himself.
Indurain 1993: 1992 winner was Indurain himself.
Pantani 1998: 1997 winner Ullrich was second, yeah....but it's an incredibly hard race to take seriously.

What I think this shows is that you either need to be dominant to the point of invincible in GTs (Anquetil, Merckx, Hianult, Indurain), the beneficiary of a weakened field (Coppi, Roche, Merckx 73, Hinault 85), or be Marco Pantani. It's not something a great rider like Contador can just do, especially given that the field today is rather broader and more even than it was, say, in the early 1990s.

Good work!

 

[Eshnar]

Re: Re:

However, nowadays the Giro certainly has the weakest lineup of the three Grand Tours. I don't think that last year's Giro was that hard to be honest. The parcours might have been but Contador didn't exactly face strong competition.

Well he did face the winner of the Vuelta, which apparently had a better field.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

However, nowadays the Giro certainly has the weakest lineup of the three Grand Tours. I don't think that last year's Giro was that hard to be honest. The parcours might have been but Contador didn't exactly face strong competition.

Well he did face the winner of the Vuelta, which apparently had a better field.

And he also faced someone that people claim would have won that Giro if he had leadership

 

[SeriousSam]

Good discussion here about Landa vs AC. We'll never know of course, but this latest round of debate has shifted my position towards Landa. I'm now leaning towards him being the winner in that counterfactual world where Aru doesn't drag him down and he gets the team support he should have had. Contador unraveled quite spectacularly towards the end, and Landa would have capitalised.

 

[blackmamba]

Re: Re:

OK then its atleast understandale your opinions about Landa and the Giro since your obviously not objective

On another note a cool picture

and you with massive bertie lobby probably find yourself objective compared to 'these mooney landa fans'? irony at its finest lol

12th july, 2015

No surprise regarding froome, he will be better at the tour as he obvously has scope for improvement but not anything scary or special.....been a long time since that and people seriously needs to wake up and stop living in the past or they will be serious disappointed come TDF

btw, that was one more slice of due objectivity

Regarding what I said about froome in 2015, well what can I say, it was exactly what happened in TDF . He won but by no means whas he anything like scary good or anything like the extraordinary.

As for the objective comment I suggest you read the post further down SIR

 

[Miburo]

Re:

Good discussion here about Landa vs AC. We'll never know of course, but this latest round of debate has shifted my position towards Landa. I'm now leaning towards him being the winner in that counterfactual world where Aru doesn't drag him down and he gets the team support he should have had. Contador unraveled quite spectacularly towards the end, and Landa would have capitalised.

Well it depends on team, if aru is in full support of Landa and he has that godlike astana team vs Contador his team, i think it's reasonable to assume Landa wins it. Astana would have to play their cards right though but yea

 

[del1962]

Landa lost time in first week. if he was leader I doubt he would have

 

[Hugo Koblet]

Re: Re:

However, nowadays the Giro certainly has the weakest lineup of the three Grand Tours. I don't think that last year's Giro was that hard to be honest. The parcours might have been but Contador didn't exactly face strong competition.

Well he did face the winner of the Vuelta, which apparently had a better field.

He was up against Aru who's best result in a previous GT is a third place and who quite clearly rode for second place, and Landa who had never previously performed in a GT and wasn't allowed to attack. The rest of the top 10 was Amador, Hesjedal, König, Kruijswijk, Caruso, Geniez and Trofimov. Hardly a stellar field. That said, the Giro might have been hard, but I think that last year's Giro field is one of the weakest in recent time. It might even be as weak as 2012.

 

[JRanton]

A bit better today though still not great. Pauwels was with him and managed to finish ahead of him which isn't great. Still a month left to the Giro so hopefully he'll be ready.

 

[armchairclimber]

He looked to be coasting today. It's almost as though he doesn't care about my CQ points!