Milan-Sanremo underrated !

[El Pistolero]

1. Vlaanderens Mooiste
2. La Doyenne
2. La Reine
3. La classica delle foglie morte
4. La primavera

If all editions of La primavera were like this year I'd rate it higher, but next year will probably just be another bunch sprint. I wouldn't mind if Montepaschi Strade Bianche replaced the date of La Primavera Just make it 60km longer. I'd love a battle there between all the big boys when they're at the top of their peak. Now it's more of a preparation race, but still has some prestige(I'd say more than any other Italian one day race besides the 2 Monuments)

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

According to Mercx the other difficulty about MSR is that its totaly straight for such a long time. Just goes on and on and on.

You dont have so many turns where you can stop pedalling for a while or where those dropped can try to catch on.

I'm intrigued.

Can someone explain to a totally non-racing cyclist (that username didn't come from nowhere) why turns in a road help dropped riders to catch up? Do you mean that the rider on his own can corner faster than those trying to ensure that they don't bring down half the peloton?

 

[El Pistolero]

Here's what van Petegem said about the hills and turns in Flanders:

The Molenberg: "Everyone wants to sit right at the front at the start of this hill. It's a real battle and then there's one big explosion. Those who don't manage to start the narrow climb smoothly risk getting blocked and having to put their foot down. In my prime, I did this climb three or four times in a row during training. That was the best way to train my legs for the explosion. [But] the Molenberg is only a test. It's far too early in the race to be decisive."
The Oude Kwaremont: "The run-up to this climb is a race within a race. It's nervous, and elbows and shoulders are the order of the day to secure the best spot at the front. You really need to be a nasty ******* to defend and keep your position, but I had no problem with that. I had guts. The Oude Kwaremont is not a climb where you just stretch your legs. It's very important to be in the first two rows in order to get in the right position. If you have to chase from the foot of the Oude Kwaremont, you've lost already."
The Paterberg: Out training, you can avoid the cobbles, but "this wouldn't be possible in the Tour of Flanders, since the gutter would be blocked with fences keeping the fans away from the road."
The Koppenberg: In 2006, "someone got his front wheel stuck in one of the grooves and it caused a chain reaction. Everyone had to climb on foot! The Koppenberg needed restoring again. They did a great job. The grooves are gone now, but if it rains, riders still have problems. It's incredibly steep and in wet conditions your rear wheel spins easily. Those kinds of hills spice up the race."
The Taaienberg: "I once saw Laurent Jalabert accelerating hard - really hard - on the Taaienberg. Right then, everyone thought the race was over, because Jalabert was like Superman. But on the Berendries, a few hills later, he completely collapsed. If you want to win the Tour of Flanders, you have to be cool, relaxed and attentive. The last thing you should do is throw your powers away too fast, too soon."
The Berg ter Stene replaces the Eikenberg. "It's a pity they've struck the Eikenberg from the course. It's a cobblestone climb and I'm in favour of leaving all those on the route.We don't have so many we should cherish the few we have. I like those kinds of climbs since they make the difference in the closing stages. It's possible for weaker riders to survive on a Tarmac climb, but not on a cobbled one. You get a far more nervous approach to the climb and only the fittest survive on the climb itself. The Berg ter Stene is a Formula One track compared to a cobbled hill."
The Leberg: "From the Leberg on, after the 2km cobblestone section of the Haaghoek, you can't afford to be outside the first 10 riders. That's the 200km mark. From that moment on, once you're in Brakel you need to be aware that it can happen at any time. This where the best of the race come forward."

 

[woodie]

I'm intrigued.

Can someone explain to a totally non-racing cyclist (that username didn't come from nowhere) why turns in a road help dropped riders to catch up? Do you mean that the rider on his own can corner faster than those trying to ensure that they don't bring down half the peloton?

Yes, on your own you can pick your own line and speed and don't have to worry about clipping wheels or blocking someone. Thats why a technical finish with lots of turns can favour a breakaway.

 

[Michielveedeebee]

+ I live near the Flemish Ardennes I ride on cobblestones like 5 times a week, including some of the most famous climbs in the Flemish races Poggio is a joke compared to some hills.

Yeah the Koppenberg is an ***

 

[Havetts]

Favourites:
1 RvV
2 Paris Roubaix
3 LBL
4 GDL
5 MSR

Would rate P-R and LBL the same if possible, huge dislike of MSR seeing all the last years it were sprintfests..

 

[profff]

1. Vlaanderens Mooiste
2. La Doyenne
2. La Reine
3. La classica delle foglie morte
4. La primavera

If all editions of La primavera were like this year I'd rate it higher, but next year will probably just be another bunch sprint. I wouldn't mind if Montepaschi Strade Bianche replaced the date of La Primavera Just make it 60km longer. I'd love a battle there between all the big boys when they're at the top of their peak. Now it's more of a preparation race, but still has some prestige(I'd say more than any other Italian one day race besides the 2 Monuments)

Giro dell' emilia has much more prestige and hystory than strade bianche.
his cast is usually more qualified.
the finish on san luca "muur" is always very selective and entertaining

 

[Polyarmour]

I'm intrigued.

Can someone explain to a totally non-racing cyclist (that username didn't come from nowhere) why turns in a road help dropped riders to catch up? Do you mean that the rider on his own can corner faster than those trying to ensure that they don't bring down half the peloton?

If you're on your own you can use the full width of the road to cut corners, to take the shortest line, you can lean the bike right over at full speed without having to worry about the guy beside you. If you are packed 4-5 wide in the peloton going around corners, you hold your line (as opposed to cutting the corner), your hands are feathering the brakes at times to adjust your speed (to avoid contact), you are tentative about leaning the bike over too much and your speed is governed by those around you.

 

[ultimobici]

I have to say I am amazed at the views that MSR is less of a race than RVV, LBL or Lombardia because the climbs are easy. The funny thing is that all of the capi come at a distance that is beyond that of all but LBL. For those that deride it as a mere sprinter's classic, take a look at Paris Tours which is acknowledged as the sprinters' classic then add on 70km with several short moderate climbs and their attendant descents. It is far from a sprinter's domain. The tactics earlier on make it possible for them to hang on some years and snatch the victory but it's not a certainty at all.

To those that deride the Poggio's average of less than 5%, try riding it at full gas with a stiff sea breeze in your face then keeping your nerve on its descent after 280+ km. It is just that attitude that sinks many an escapee. The capi are nasty stings in the tail and as they are on the coast the wind can be viscious. Then on the descent there's the risk of light rain turning the roads to a lethal skating rink.

 

[Captain_Cavman]

1. PR - and #1 by some margin for me.
2. RvV
3. MSR - Not against having a monument for the sprinters but too much in their favour currently.
4. LBL - List of previous winners is a who's who of Clinic subject matter. Contador for 2012.
5. GdL - Should this even be a monument?

 

[roundabout]

What's wrong with Lombardia?

It's long enough, tough enough and old enough.

Too late in the season?

 

[El Pistolero]

Nothing wrong with Lombardia if you look at the past winners.

 

[Captain_Cavman]

What's wrong with Lombardia?

It's long enough, tough enough and old enough.

Too late in the season?

I think so.

There just doesn't seem to be the interest in it that the other monuments have. Interest from the media, the people on here, me, and the cyclists themselves.

This is probably mostly to do with its position in the calendar.

 

[R.0.t.O]

They're all awesome, what's the point of saying which one's the best? 5 amazing races with varying terrains, suiting varying riders, which shows up in only three riders having ever won the lot. That's a really big deal and it's a bit of a mystery to me why the 5 aren't recognised more outside cycling in the way of the Tour de France. MSR is in a way the fairest of the Monuments with all different types of rider having a chance, often it ends in a sprint but you have recent wins by Bettini, Cancellara and Pozzato, and guys like Gilbert obviously believe that they can win there. There is a chance to attack on Cipressa or Pogio, there is a chance to go on the descent and stay away, there is a chance to take a flyer while the teams get reorganised, and of course there is a chance if you're patient for the sprint. You don't get that fairness at Liege or Lombardia, it's always much more clear which type of rider will win.

 

[Captain_Cavman]

They're all awesome, what's the point of saying which one's the best? ...

There's no point. It's Monday morning on a cycling forum, what do you expect?

 

[Echoes]

No way is Flanders last. For one it has the biggest crowds by far, with every village and town coming out.

On that point alone id put it first.

In Belgium it is huge with tremendous passion from the fans. I think a rider (particularly from Flanders) can make more of a career just from winning RVV than any other one day race.

The fervour of the crowds is no indication of the hardness of the race.

Here in Belgium we had a TV programme called De Flandriens and three past winners of this race considered it as a relatively easy classic compared to Liège Bastogne or Sanremo or Lombardy or Roubaix: Roger De Vlaeminck, Edwig Van Hooydonck and Eddy Merckx (even though a famous poster out here claimed the latter said the exact opposite, which is hilariously dishonest ).

I even have a quote by Merckx who compared Amstel Gold Race to Flanders after he first won it in 1973 (by then, Amstel was sort of present-day Quebec, with regards to prestige):

You can't imagine how great are the ressources that Dutch Limburg roads can offer, mostly if you don't fear making loops, climbing the same climb, twice or three times. It was the case for the 1973 edition of the Amstel Gold Race and I swear some of the climbs had no cause to be jealous of the Kapelmuur or some of our climbs.

I'd still say Roubaix is the hardest though. Merckx say it's either Liège or Sanremo but I have friends who made the amateur Paris-Roubaix and I'm sure it is the hardest. The Queen of the Classics forever.

In order to give a response to the guy who asked why turns allowed for dropped riders to come back, Merckx argued that in turns, you're slowing down and stop pedalling for a while, which allows you to take a short breather. In straight road, you constantly have to push on the pedals.

I have to say I am amazed at the views that MSR is less of a race than RVV, LBL or Lombardia because the climbs are easy. The funny thing is that all of the capi come at a distance that is beyond that of all but LBL. For those that deride it as a mere sprinter's classic, take a look at Paris Tours which is acknowledged as the sprinters' classic then add on 70km with several short moderate climbs and their attendant descents. It is far from a sprinter's domain. The tactics earlier on make it possible for them to hang on some years and snatch the victory but it's not a certainty at all.

To those that deride the Poggio's average of less than 5%, try riding it at full gas with a stiff sea breeze in your face then keeping your nerve on its descent after 280+ km. It is just that attitude that sinks many an escapee. The capi are nasty stings in the tail and as they are on the coast the wind can be viscious. Then on the descent there's the risk of light rain turning the roads to a lethal skating rink

Great read !

 

[El Pistolero]

Milan-San Remo is not a hard race. If you want to rank them on hardness Milan-San Remo is dead last. Not a single cyclist thinks it's a hard race.

Tom Boonen called Roubaix easier to win than Flanders. As did many other Flandriens.

Of course Luik is harder than Flanders. Have you even compared the hills? These short hills in Flanders just add a totally different dimension to the race than the longer hills in Luik. In Flanders you have to remain at the front the entire time and be cautious of lot's and lot's of crashes and other mechanicals. Not so much in Luik.

 

[Cobblestones]

Milan-San Remo is not a hard race. If you want to rank them on hardness Milan-San Remo is dead last. Not a single cyclist thinks it's a hard race.

Hard race to finish or hard race to win?

 

[ultimobici]

I think so.

There just doesn't seem to be the interest in it that the other monuments have. Interest from the media, the people on here, me, and the cyclists themselves.

This is probably mostly to do with its position in the calendar.

The lack of interest can be accounted as follows
Media - Ignorance & Money (Lance never rode hence it's minor)
People on here - lack of cycling education
You - ditto
Riders - Have a look at the 2009 & 2010 start lists - hardly a micky mouse group. Basso, Visconti, Evans, Ballan, Cunego, Gilbert, Hushovd are all there. That's before you look at the list of winners. There is not a single fluke win that I can remember.

 

[El Pistolero]

Hard race to finish or hard race to win?

First one.

But if you're the best sprinter it's the easiest one to win. As you don't have to do anything until the final 200 meters. If you're not a sprinter it's probably the hardest one to win, but that's also a reason why I rate it lower. You need a whole lot of luck if you're not a sprinter.

Just look at Milan-San Remo 2007. If Ricco would have worked together with Gilbert they would have escaped the sprinters, but Ricco being the obnoxious cobra he is, obviously didn't want to work together and rather finished in the peloton than second.

As an attacker you need to hope the right persons follow your attack. Or on crashes like this year.

 

[Captain_Cavman]

The lack of interest can be accounted as follows
Media - Ignorance & Money (Lance never rode hence it's minor)
People on here - lack of cycling education
You - ditto
Riders - Have a look at the 2009 & 2010 start lists - hardly a micky mouse group. Basso, Visconti, Evans, Ballan, Cunego, Gilbert, Hushovd are all there. That's before you look at the list of winners. There is not a single fluke win that I can remember.

Those first three cases are just another way of saying, there's a lack of interest.

As for the start lists, no, I don't think they're all that great. In every other monument every rider who has a realistic shot is on the start line and goes for it. Can the same be said for Lombardia?

 

[El Pistolero]

1 Alexandre Vinokourov (KAZ) Astana 6h 37' 48"
2 Alexandr Kolobnev (RUS) Team Katusha + 6"
3 Philippe Gilbert (BEL) Omega Pharma-Lotto + 1' 04"
4 Cadel Evans (AUS) BMC Racing Team + 1' 04"
5 Andy Schleck (LUX) Team Saxo Bank + 1' 07"
6 Igor Antón (ESP) Euskaltel-Euskadi + 1' 07"
7 Chris Horner (USA) Team RadioShack + 1' 07"
8 Frank Schleck (LUX) Team Saxo Bank + 1' 07"
9 Alberto Contador (ESP) Astana + 1' 07"
10 Thomas Voeckler (FRA) Bbox Bouygues Telecom + 1' 18"

Bolded ones participated in Lombardia.

Igor Anton didn't enter because he had injuries at the Vuelta, but instead they send Samu Sanchez who is still better than Igor. Contador was banned, but never races after July anyway. The only notable person who wasn't there was Vino. He was there in 2009 though.

And if you look at the winners: Paolo Bettini after winning the Worlds, Cunego(after winning the Giro in 2004), Michele Bartoli, Philippe Gilbert and Danilo Di Luca.

 

[roundabout]

Captain_Cavman has a point. Riders especially those classic specialists who did the Tour are pretty knackered by the time Lombardia comes around, so while the starters might look impressive they are very likely to be invisible or play no role at the finish.

Out of the bolded, only Philippe "i like to skip the Tour" Gilbert featured.

 

[El Pistolero]

Captain_Cavman has a point. Riders especially those classic specialists who did the Tour are pretty knackered by the time Lombardia comes around, so while the starters might look impressive they are very likely to be invisible or play no role at the finish.

Out of the bolded, only Philippe "i like to skip the Tour" Gilbert featured.

Samu featered.

Andy had any intention to win, but just sucked as he can't hold form for a long time. Sucks for him, but it's a valuable talent in cycling. Most others DNF because of the weather conditions. Hey, sucks for them if they can't handle some rain.

If you can't hold your form from the worlds till Lombardia then you don't even deserve to be called a professional cyclist.

Bettini is the living proof it can. There's a reason why so many big names are on the list, it's not a fluke or because they got a free win.

 

[Lanark]

1 Alexandre Vinokourov (KAZ) Astana 6h 37' 48"
2 Alexandr Kolobnev (RUS) Team Katusha + 6"
3 Philippe Gilbert (BEL) Omega Pharma-Lotto + 1' 04"
4 Cadel Evans (AUS) BMC Racing Team + 1' 04"
5 Andy Schleck (LUX) Team Saxo Bank + 1' 07"
6 Igor Antón (ESP) Euskaltel-Euskadi + 1' 07"
7 Chris Horner (USA) Team RadioShack + 1' 07"
8 Frank Schleck (LUX) Team Saxo Bank + 1' 07"
9 Alberto Contador (ESP) Astana + 1' 07"
10 Thomas Voeckler (FRA) Bbox Bouygues Telecom + 1' 18"

Bolded ones participated in Lombardia.

Igor Anton didn't enter because he had injuries at the Vuelta, but instead they send Samu Sanchez who is still better than Igor. Contador was banned, but never races after July anyway. The only notable person who wasn't there was Vino. He was there in 2009 though.

And if you look at the winners: Paolo Bettini after winning the Worlds, Cunego(after winning the Giro in 2004), Michele Bartoli, Philippe Gilbert and Danilo Di Luca.

But then you look at when they won those Lomardia editions;

Bartoli won LBL in 1997 and 1998, wasn't strong enough to win it after that , but won Lombardia in 2002 and 2003.

Bettini won LBL in 2000 and 2002, but couldn't win it after that. Was good enough to win Lombardia in 2005 and 2006.

Cunego, beaten in LBL every year, but somehow good enough to win Lombardia 3 times.

Gilbert, won Lombardia twice, but couldn't do better than place 4 in LBL in those years.

Ergo: the Giro di Lombardia, because of his spot on the calender, has become the domain of classic specialists that are over their peak (Bartoli, Bettini), or guys who aren't good enough (yet) to win LBL (Cunego, Di Luca, Gilbert).

Gilbert has been wise to copy Bettini's schedule of his last season's. Peak in the spring, take a break during the middle part of the season, and reach your spring shape again at the end of the year. Riding against a tired and unmotivated peloton, you can win a lot in autumn using this strategy.