Milano - Sanremo 2023, one day monument, March 18

[Salvarani]

I want them to keep it exactly like it is.

 

[DNP-Old]

Yeah, Pompeiana. It were to be included in 2014, but the road was deemed unsafe, so they removed it again. It could be added to the race like in the profile below, or it could replace Cipressa.

It would also have been possible to add Civezza before Cipressa.

Spoiler: Civezza

This would be awful.

 

[Red Rick]

Wouldn't call it a climber's classic like Lombardia. Pompiena is only 4.9%. I'd say more of a strongman's classic

Probably not a climbers classic, but your Mads Pedersens and 2nd tier MSR favorites get completely obliterated.

The fun part would be Pogacar trying to hold the rest off solo on the descents.

 

[houtdffan]

Probably not a climbers classic, but your Mads Pedersens and 2nd tier MSR favorites get completely obliterated.

The fun part would be Pogacar trying to hold the rest off solo on the descents.

I'd say we have a different group of second tier favs. The WVAs would move into that group, probably the Gannas as well. Could Pog and likely Remco hold them off? Would they have to work together on the descents and on the flat between the climbs?

IMO, those who cannot climb 4-5% gradients shouldn't be winning a non cobbled monument

 

[OlavEH]

Pompeiana changes MSR so much lol. It basically makes it almost a climbers classic, especially if you leave Cipressa and Poggio in.

If you have all three climbs, I agree. But it would be interesting to see some versions with Pompeiana instead of one of the two other. It would make it more possible to attack and succeed from further out than Poggio. Right now there is only one possible course of action in MSR. Attacks from further out than the last 2 kms of Poggio is close to impossible.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

I'd say we have a different group of second tier favs. The WVAs would move into that group, probably the Gannas as well. Could Pog and likely Remco hold them off? Would they have to work together on the descents and on the flat between the climbs?

IMO, those who cannot climb 4-5% gradients shouldn't be winning a non cobbled monument

Are you proposing doing a reverse Milano-Torino on this race? Seems pointless to me, the biggest drawcard of MSR is that it attracts such a wide range of top riders. Where else can Nibali or Pogacar turn what is normally a sprinter's classic into something else?

 

[Red Rick]

I
If you have all three climbs, I agree. But it would be interesting to see some versions with Pompeiana instead of one of the two other. It would make it more possible to attack and succeed from further out than Poggio. Right now there is only one possible course of action in MSR. Attacks from further out than the last 2 kms of Poggio is close to impossible.

Cipressa>Pompeiana I think you just get the same with everyone launching on the steep part of the Pompeiana. It's longer to the finish, should be around 8km after the descent ends, but I think the reduced sprinters types get absolutely destroyed. You can probably also get a faster Cipressa cause the effort isn't for nothing.

Pompeiana-Poggio would be fun I think. But you do eliminate a lot of contenders from the race, and I don't think you get new contenders cause Pogacar is already there and no climber type other than Pogacar is gonna beat Pogacar. Maybe this is where it actually gets interesting for Roglic cause Pompeiana should have slightly less critical issues with positioning.

I also don't think all 3 is that much worse than 2 of the 3 with Pompeiana. That hill would dominate the race.

 

[houtdffan]

Are you proposing doing a reverse Milano-Torino on this race? Seems pointless to me, the biggest drawcard of MSR is that it attracts such a wide range of top riders. Where else can Nibali or Pogacar turn what is normally a sprinter's classic into something else?

As I said, sprinters who cannot get over a 4-5% climb have no business winning a non PR monument. 30 seconds of sprinting should not award one a title of this level

 

[repre]

Cipressa>Pompeiana I think you just get the same with everyone launching on the steep part of the Pompeiana. It's longer to the finish, should be around 8km after the descent ends, but I think the reduced sprinters types get absolutely destroyed. You can probably also get a faster Cipressa cause the effort isn't for nothing.

Pompeiana-Poggio would be fun I think. But you do eliminate a lot of contenders from the race, and I don't think you get new contenders cause Pogacar is already there and no climber type other than Pogacar is gonna beat Pogacar. Maybe this is where it actually gets interesting for Roglic cause Pompeiana should have slightly less critical issues with positioning.

Rogla can beat him

 

[red_flanders]

If you watched that race yesterday and walked away thinking it needed fixing, well…

 

[OlavEH]

Pompeiana-Poggio would be fun I think. But you do eliminate a lot of contenders from the race, and I don't think you get new contenders cause Pogacar is already there and no climber type other than Pogacar is gonna beat Pogacar. Maybe this is where it actually gets interesting for Roglic cause Pompeiana should have slightly less critical issues with positioning.

I also don't think all 3 is that much worse than 2 of the 3 with Pompeiana. That hill would dominate the race.

I would still like to see 2-3 versions with Pompeiana-Poggio. The disadvantage is of course less contenders. But it would possibly create an opportunity for attacking further out than the last 8 kms. The bit steeper section of Pompeiana would come with about 20 kms left.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Pompeiana changes MSR so much lol. It basically makes it almost a climbers classic, especially if you leave Cipressa and Poggio in.

No it doesnt. Lombardia is a climbers classic, so is Liege, but no way in hell MSR is even close to that just by bringing that climb in.

Adding Pompeina would make the race better for sure - go for it. The sprinters don't have a chance anyways these years, might as well make it harder.

 

[Lequack]

If you watched that race yesterday and walked away thinking it needed fixing, well…

It needs some action going on

https://twitter.com/x/status/1637462123243511810

View: https://twitter.com/OutOfCycling/status/1637462123243511810?s=20

 

[Sciatic]

It might have been mentioned or discussed... but did they film the descent of Poggio with a drone or from the heli?

Because there where no motos, which was a nice surprise.

You still got to see every turn and the gap between MVDP and the trio. Thought it was perfect.

That’s how I remember viewing most Poggio descents after the first few turns.

 

[Red Rick]

No it doesnt. Lombardia is a climbers classic, so is Liege, but no way in hell MSR is even close to that just by bringing that climb in.

Adding Pompeina would make the race better for sure - go for it. The sprinters don't have a chance anyways these years, might as well make it harder.

Cipressa and Pompeiana are back to back 9 minute climbs with little recovery. You remove 90% of the contenders without adding many new ones. It makes the race much more generic.

Besides, it won't really be unpredictable. It will always be an attack on the Pompeiana, with the added bonus that you'll often know very quickly if it gets brought back or if the race is already over.

 

[Riek s]

If you watched that race yesterday and walked away thinking it needed fixing, well…

agreed.

Changing the route to be more climb intensive sounds like fixing it so Pogacar can win this more easily.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

It's not a sponsor thing, it's an aero thing.

A small chainring is useless for a race like this and 2x just is an aero, weight and chain security penalty (as a result of chainring design). If anything it's a reverse of a sponsor issue. Can 100% guarantee if someone like Bigham had his way, Ineos would be on 1x for MSR and a huge number of other races. Can say the same thing for the technical support of many other teams, but Shimano doesn't want them on 1x. A lot of the time they haven't even used it on pan flat TT's.

Good points, and I think my reaction is mostly generated from the consumer market push for SRAM 1x. I refuse to even look at a gravel or road bike with SRAM 1x, as I have no desire to either limit my low gears or high gears, depending on the front ring, and the steps between the gears is stupid if you live in the mointains (as I do). I've got a Transition Spur, and on that bike, 1x makes sense. My gravel and road however, would be made maddening if they were 1x. Even on my Spur, I find myself on longer climbs, sometimes choosing to grind a bit more than I want, or spin and go too slow. Not dropping chains, or worse, the hell of the 90's chain suck, makes it worth it, but if it weren't for that, I'd still run a 2x or 3x. I have a 2x on my bikepacking rig (Ritchey P29'er), and there's no way I'd ever change that.

I think 1x should have a more limited use, and SRAM seems intent killing the front derailleur. I think I made clear how I feel about that.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

I don't think any race has mandatory watching from before the last 60km.

I love to watch every km of Roubaix.

 

[Nick2413]

Adding more climbs in just makes the race more predictable and the charm of this race is the unpredictability and knowing anyone can win.
If anything, make the drag to the finish another couple km longer to encourage more group 2 excitement and the chance for the sprinters to get back.

 

[Bolder]

Good points, and I think my reaction is mostly generaged from the consumer market push for SRAM 1x. I refuse to even look at a gravel or road bike with SRAM 1x, as I have no desire to either limit my low gears or high gears, depending on the front ring, and the steps between the gears is stupid if you live in the mointains (as I do). I've got a Transition Spur, and on that bike, 1x makes sense. My gravel and road however, would be made maddening if they were 1x. Even on my Spur, I find myself on longer climbs, sometimes choosing to grind a bit more than I want, or spin and go too slow. Not dropping chains, or worse, the hell of the 90's chain suck, makes it worth it, but if it weren't for that, I'd still run a 2x or 3x. I have a 2x on my bikepacking rig (Ritchey P29'er), and there's no way I'd ever change that.

I think 1x should have a more limited use, and SRAM seems intent killing the front derailleur. I think I made clear how I feel about that.

3T had a big push for a 1x road bike (think it didn't come with a front derailleur mount, even). Didn't the ill-fated Aqua Blue team use them?

I wonder if that Classified Powershift internal hub coupled with a 1x is the best solution. I think there's at least one conti team testing it.

I'm all in favor of ditching the front derailleur, but I don't want to compromise on gearing. It's hard to switch between my new 2x12 and my older 2x10. (first world problem, I know...)

 

[OlavEH]

Adding more climbs in just makes the race more predictable and the charm of this race is the unpredictability and knowing anyone can win.
If anything, make the drag to the finish another couple km longer to encourage more group 2 excitement and the chance for the sprinters to get back.

MSR is extremely predictable in terms of how it pans out. There aren't much room for other courses of action than attack within the last 10 km.

 

[CHGJ2000]

Good points, and I think my reaction is mostly generated from the consumer market push for SRAM 1x. I refuse to even look at a gravel or road bike with SRAM 1x, as I have no desire to either limit my low gears or high gears, depending on the front ring, and the steps between the gears is stupid if you live in the mointains (as I do). I've got a Transition Spur, and on that bike, 1x makes sense. My gravel and road however, would be made maddening if they were 1x. Even on my Spur, I find myself on longer climbs, sometimes choosing to grind a bit more than I want, or spin and go too slow. Not dropping chains, or worse, the hell of the 90's chain suck, makes it worth it, but if it weren't for that, I'd still run a 2x or 3x. I have a 2x on my bikepacking rig (Ritchey P29'er), and there's no way I'd ever change that.

I think 1x should have a more limited use, and SRAM seems intent killing the front derailleur. I think I made clear how I feel about that.

That's fair, for everyone else, it's pretty meh on the road unless you live somewhere super flat or are very strong. For pros though just wanted to make it clear 1x is pretty great in quite a few circumstances (probably the ultimate example being Roubaix).

 

[Nick2413]

MSR is extremely predictable in terms of how it pans out. There aren't much room for other courses of action than attack within the last 10 km.

Predictability in the sense of potential riders and rider types who can win. Even though it hasn’t been very sprinter heavy recently it’s still more of a roll of the dice. Another climb in the last 20k just triples the chances of a couple specific riders.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Cipressa and Pompeiana are back to back 9 minute climbs with little recovery. You remove 90% of the contenders without adding many new ones. It makes the race much more generic.

Besides, it won't really be unpredictable. It will always be an attack on the Pompeiana, with the added bonus that you'll often know very quickly if it gets brought back or if the race is already over.

Pretty impressive that you know even before including the climb what will happen 100% of the time. I don't think its that simple, and it opens up more variety and tactics than 290 km into herpa derp Poggio full gas and then see what happen on the descent and flat.

Whether we think the race gets better or worse is highly subjective. Nothing wrong with shaking it up - its a bit too stale for my liking.

 

[Red Rick]

Pretty impressive that you know even before including the climb what will happen 100% of the time. I don't think its that simple, and it opens up more variety and tactics than 290 km into herpa derp Poggio full gas and then see what happen on the descent and flat.

Whether we think the race gets better or worse is highly subjective. Nothing wrong with shaking it up - its a bit too stale for my liking.

It opens a lot of tactics, all but one of which are bad. The only upside is maybe it makes the Cipressa descent more decisive. But if you're the strongest uphill, there is only one place to attack. It's like how they always attack on the Civiglio.

After that point, the race gets very different. Especially if you have a flat section on top, a technical descent, and ~ 4km to the Poggio or 8km to the Poggio once you get down.

But I simply don't think Milano Sanremo isnt broken as it is, and it would change the race completely. It's different for me than removing the Ans finish in Liege or the Cauberg finish in Amstel.