Millar - "We found our mojo"

[Ripper]

edited by moderator.

grow up.

You can be as oblivious you like to Wiggins hemoglobin patterns, that follow the first half like Armstrong. You can deny Millar's past record.

Umm, OK there. Play nice. No needs for anyone to get their knickers in a twist over the Agyle Armada.

 

[auscyclefan94]

Dope poll

Would anyone be interested of having a poll of who they think is clean who wasn't?

 

[Ripper]

Would anyone be interested of having a poll of who they think is clean who wasn't?

Krap! You could make that a poll of who is clean, in which case you would have pretty small numbers. Or you could go with who is just in your face, over the top, stinking pile of dog dung, grossly doping their eyeballs out! Like Rrrrrricco (suave), or the master of disaster Valv-Piti.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Would anyone be interested of having a poll of who they think is clean who wasn't?

IMO- no as ultimately it will prove nothing.

Posters here often let loose with who they believe is or isn't doping - I am including myself in that - and I think that is acceptable as one can debate or oppose a viewpoint.

I think PMG76's post was very good. Garmin have been knocking on the door all season but now have managed to get on to the top step of the podium.

I would disagree with a lot of the comments from Blackcat - however he is correct imo about the way Garmin has portrayed itself.

I am still willing to give Garmin the tag of cleanest team but the constant rumors regarding the signing of AC chip away at that.
But for me when JV said we mustn't criticize the Biological Passport it knocked off a big chunk.

 

[soOpOSMthanks!]

so obviously, I'm new to the boards. and i'm pretty new to road biking as well, and from what I'm gathering from my perusing...if you win a stage you dope. if you win a tour, you dope. if a team's season is finally starting to pick up wins (after many close calls for the former part of the season), THEY dope. and ALL of this is based off of assumptions, and the past....

seems like cycling doesn't need to get cleaner, more like...cycling needs to start handing out tampons by the truck load.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

so obviously, I'm new to the boards. and i'm pretty new to road biking as well, and from what I'm gathering from my perusing...if you win a stage you dope. if you win a tour, you dope. if a team's season is finally starting to pick up wins (after many close calls for the former part of the season), THEY dope. and ALL of this is based off of assumptions, and the past....

seems like cycling doesn't need to get cleaner, more like...cycling needs to start handing out tampons by the truck load.

NO!

I realise this is your first post on this side of the forum - so welcome.
BUT there are many opposing views on here and various opinions on what level of doping is going on in our sport.

To be honest - I get rather frustrated when people look in to the Clinic and then suggest that everyone here has stated they all dope, or every stage winner dopes. There are various opinions on all issues.

Cycling has an appaling history of PED abuse - but for the record 3 riders were caught this week for using CERA - there has been a lot of talk of change but unfortunatley there is still evidence showing little has changed.

 

[soOpOSMthanks!]

true, and I didn't mean to come off that everyone in the forum thinks everyone is doping etc. etc. while I am quite new to all this, I do know cycling's unfortunate association with PEDs and i do realize how many people would harbour negative opinions.

and i'm not gonna lie, i decided to post in this topic because, well...I LIKE GARMIN I think they are a fantastic team. and i just find it absurd that they are being accused of systemically doping because they are finally picking up some top podium spots? (correct me if that wasn't what the op was implying) it's not like they are fuji servetto, all of a sudden rising out of the ashes and partying like its 1999. they have had a consistent season of near wins and they finally got some good cards to play. along with that, wiggins having a great tour, and david millar's past...I'm trying to see how those make a solid case with actual backed up solid facts that can be applied to the now (ok, i dont know **** about blood values, but i'm sure wiggan's can be up for debate). to me it sounds like the rantings equivalent to a high school girl who saw her boyfriend walking with another girl, in which said girlfriend starts assuming that he's cheating on her.

again, i totally understand why people feel the way the feel about PEDs in cycling. but when it comes down to it, the majority based on assumptions (and the past). in this case, give some real reason as to why one thinks garmin's is A-team is doping besides "OH NO THEY DI'INT" theory. in my opinion, their pick up in wins is no surprise. you'd have to be naive/ignorant to neglect the number of near misses they've had, the recent wins were only inevitable.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

....
and i'm not gonna lie, i decided to post in this topic because, well...I LIKE GARMIN I think they are a fantastic team. and i just find it absurd that they are being accused of systemically doping because they are finally picking up some top podium spots? ....

Good post.

I had a quick look back through all the posts here - and no-one who has posted here has agreed with the OP.

I agree with you - I like Garmin too - while I disagree with some of Blackcats points imo he is spot on with how Garmin have portrayed themselves in the media.

Many cycling fans want to believe in a cleaner peleton or clean riders - and Garmin have 'tapped' in to that market.
So is it the truth or is it a lie.

My opinion is that there is no organised doping within Garmin - and that JV is trying to run a clean team, but it does not mean that because they portray that image that we should not question or suspend opinion.

I hope you stick around and contribute more in the Clinic as it is always good to have new blood to debate and discuss all issues.

 

[blackcat]

Good post.

I had a quick look back through all the posts here - and no-one who has posted here has agreed with the OP.

I agree with you - I like Garmin too - while I disagree with some of Blackcats points imo he is spot on with how Garmin have portrayed themselves in the media.

Many cycling fans want to believe in a cleaner peleton or clean riders - and Garmin have 'tapped' in to that market.
So is it the truth or is it a lie.

My opinion is that there is no organised doping within Garmin - and that JV is trying to run a clean team, but it does not mean that because they portray that image that we should not question or suspend opinion.

I hope you stick around and contribute more in the Clinic as it is always good to have new blood to debate and discuss all issues.

I never said it was a systematic program.

I am just saying their results defy belief.

They have outperformed all the Italian teams, and all the Spanish teams imo. They were quite inconspicuous in the Ardennes, but they have won January to December.

Millar should not be believed.

JV doped in Dauphine in 99, to the record ascent of Ventoux. He knows what it is like to ride clean, and what hypothetical power he could put out in a lab, has zero relevance to what power one puts out on day 15 of a GT.

What did Lemond say? He said he could hit 440 or 450, but after 10 days at the Tour, 390 was about his top.

As long as JV wants to play the charade of Wiggins and Contador, plus denying publicly his experience at Ventoux versus a third week of a GT, - just how many Tour de Frances did he finish? None.

Ask JV what power he put out on a finishing climb during the Tour when he was clean, when he went au bloc. Then ask him what his SRM said on Ventoux that day.

Garmin ARE NOT running a systematic program, and their riders are not getting insulin after every stage at the Tour. But I want reckon most of their A team, plus other winners, are doing stuff like every other rider with similar results in the peloton.

It is just absolute fantasy to say Wiggins can put out 460 watts, therefore after 2 weeks, when he puts that out on a finishing climb, that is plausible and completely within his norms.

This guy never rode GC, never climbed over a jam tin.

That said, his enhancing this year, put an entire new frame on his previous career and results. I immediately sold them all short. I do not think riders hit near 30, and decide to take the plunge.

I am comfortable with my opinion on some of Garmin's riders. If you venture to velo-club and other foreign language boards during the Tour, they were scathing, more so than here.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I never said it was a systematic program.

I am just saying their results defy belief.

They have outperformed all the Italian teams, and all the Spanish teams imo. They were quite inconspicuous in the Ardennes, but they have won January to December.

Millar should not be believed.

JV doped in Dauphine in 99, to the record ascent of Ventoux. He knows what it is like to ride clean, and what hypothetical power he could put out in a lab, has zero relevance to what power one puts out on day 15 of a GT.

What did Lemond say? He said he could hit 440 or 450, but after 10 days at the Tour, 390 was about his top.

As long as JV wants to play the charade of Wiggins and Contador, plus denying publicly his experience at Ventoux versus a third week of a GT, - just how many Tour de Frances did he finish? None.

Ask JV what power he put out on a finishing climb during the Tour when he was clean, when he went au bloc. Then ask him what his SRM said on Ventoux that day.

Garmin ARE NOT running a systematic program, and their riders are not getting insulin after every stage at the Tour. But I want reckon most of their A team, plus other winners, are doing stuff like every other rider with similar results in the peloton.

It is just absolute fantasy to say Wiggins can put out 460 watts, therefore after 2 weeks, when he puts that out on a finishing climb, that is plausible and completely within his norms.

This guy never rode GC, never climbed over a jam tin.

That said, his enhancing this year, put an entire new frame on his previous career and results. I immediately sold them all short. I do not think riders hit near 30, and decide to take the plunge.

I am comfortable with my opinion on some of Garmin's riders. If you venture to velo-club and other foreign language boards during the Tour, they were scathing, more so than here.

...Nor did I say you did.

I agree about JV's history - but he has said that victory on Ventoux gave him no satisfaction and even the IM with Frankie Andreu you can read the bitterness of having to play with the 'hotsause'.

Whatever you say about JV he is no Riis.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

I never said it was a systematic program....
Millar should not be believed.... What did Lemond say? He said he could hit 440 or 450, but after 10 days at the Tour, 390 was about his top.... It is just absolute fantasy to say Wiggins can put out 460 watts, therefore after 2 weeks, when he puts that out on a finishing climb....If you venture to velo-club and other foreign language boards during the Tour, they were scathing, more so than here.

I've seen you say that Millar might be clean, and that Garmin is probably not systematic doping. The spin coming out of Garmin is getting on my nerves at the moment too. Although I can see reasons for much of it, I don't like being treated like a fool (precious I know), and it does make me question them. But in the absence of more evidence I'm gonna keep hoping...

Lemond's point is an important one, but where did the 460 watts for wiggo come from?....

One of the reasons I like this forum is that there are a number of multilingual people who give better info to us sadly mono-lingual colonials than is available in the English language press....can I ask if English is your first language? It just seems that so much of your active vocabulary is Latin based...

 

[blackcat]

I've seen you say that Millar might be clean, and that Garmin is probably not systematic doping. The spin coming out of Garmin is getting on my nerves at the moment too. Although I can see reasons for much of it, I don't like being treated like a fool (precious I know), and it does make me question them. But in the absence of more evidence I'm gonna keep hoping...

Lemond's point is an important one, but where did the 460 watts for wiggo come from?....

One of the reasons I like this forum is that there are a number of multilingual people who give better info to us sadly mono-lingual colonials than is available in the English language press....can I ask if English is your first language? It just seems that so much of your active vocabulary is Latin based...

460 watts was just thrown out there. It was not a figure for a particular stage.

I think on Cyclismag the French site, they had Wiggins at 430 or 440 on a couple of his final ascents.

It was not a figure to be allocated to one day, it was instructuctive, re: "Wiggins hits 460 FTP in training, thus, 450 is possible". My counterpoint - "but not possible on stage 15" see: Lemond.

Armstrong's guy in the San Diego wind tunnel, if you do time there and he analyses your drag and power in the alternate positions, may let on to a few little clues to Armstrong.

Circa 2003, he was saying about the power outputs in the prologue, first chrono and final chrono, were quite illuminating. Armstrong was the one guy to hold or improve his power, in this expert's equation.

How can he do that? (rhetoric, no need to answer)

 

[Addict]

You can't deny Millar's past record. I think it's a damn shame that someone who got caught cheating is allowed to lead a national team at the world championships. Chief Brailsford and the British federation loses face because of the strange choices they make. Brailsford claims he is certain that all of his riders are clean. How come Millar was caught with his hand in the cookie jar?

 

[cyclingmad]

Watts

460 watts was just thrown out there. It was not a figure for a particular stage.

I think on Cyclismag the French site, they had Wiggins at 430 or 440 on a couple of his final ascents.

It was not a figure to be allocated to one day, it was instructuctive, re: "Wiggins hits 460 FTP in training, thus, 450 is possible". My counterpoint - "but not possible on stage 15" see: Lemond.

Armstrong's guy in the San Diego wind tunnel, if you do time there and he analyses your drag and power in the alternate positions, may let on to a few little clues to Armstrong.

Circa 2003, he was saying about the power outputs in the prologue, first chrono and final chrono, were quite illuminating. Armstrong was the one guy to hold or improve his power, in this expert's equation.

How can he do that? (rhetoric, no need to answer)

Garmin are trying to counter the huge amount of negative cycling journalism relating to doping so you hear a lot from them. Their riders individually may be doing thinks Vaughters is not involved with like any other team.

The numbers here are all theoretical and estimating power output is prone to error. The french also reported Contador had a VO2 of 99 with flawed figures so you cant trust journalists to be impartial or post reliable information all the time

Agree with your point about recovery and lower performance late in a grand tour. Using Greg LeMond as a benchmark though is not reliable he has an obvious opinion and slant to say everyone is doping. He is also one rider showing his recovery from the late 80s when less was known about how to recover.

Garmin have been doing lots of research into recovery techniques and quite possibly Wiggins did relatively well.

We need actual power figures recorded in the race and further historical figures to justify the suspicions

 

[Von Mises]

460 watts was just thrown out there. It was not a figure for a particular stage.

I think on Cyclismag the French site, they had Wiggins at 430 or 440 on a couple of his final ascents.

It was not a figure to be allocated to one day, it was instructuctive, re: "Wiggins hits 460 FTP in training, thus, 450 is possible". My counterpoint - "but not possible on stage 15" see: Lemond.

Armstrong's guy in the San Diego wind tunnel, if you do time there and he analyses your drag and power in the alternate positions, may let on to a few little clues to Armstrong.

Circa 2003, he was saying about the power outputs in the prologue, first chrono and final chrono, were quite illuminating. Armstrong was the one guy to hold or improve his power, in this expert's equation.

How can he do that? (rhetoric, no need to answer)

Lemond seems to be nice guy, I like him. But like all humans he tends to have selective memory and habit to use facts selectively.

 

[Race Radio]

What did Lemond say? He said he could hit 440 or 450, but after 10 days at the Tour, 390 was about his top.
.

Lemond averaged 420-430 for 22 minutes for his final TT in 89. Considering he was far from his top form I would assume he could have done better in 86.

 

[British Pro Cycling]

Lemond averaged 420-430 for 22 minutes for his final TT in 89. Considering he was far from his top form I would assume he could have done better in 86.

But then he struggled greatly after EPO was introduced. It makes you wonder what other great tour riders may have struggled with tour riding in the early 1990s because of the EPO problem.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

But then he struggled greatly after EPO was introduced. It makes you wonder what other great tour riders may have struggled with tour riding in the early 1990s because of the EPO problem.

or also in the early 00's....

 

[Race Radio]

or also in the early 00's....

Chistophe Bassons comes to mind. Too bad he was run out of the sport.

 

[British Pro Cycling]

Any elite athlete will tell you that confidence is a fickle yet crucial thing.

Ah, the old "confidence" canard. The truth is there is no such thing as confidence. There is only doping.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Lemond seems to be nice guy, I like him. But like all humans he tends to have selective memory and habit to use facts selectively.

Sure, but the overall pattern in Lemond's numbers during a GT were similar to the pattern talked about for Mercxs....and several academic papers show a decline in hemoglobin concentration during a GT....so while we can't be sure that there is no way to reduce the decline in power numbers during a GT, Lemond does have an important point.

 

[Anonymous]

Someone better find out what these guys are using for weight loss! They have two riders that have lost massive amounts of weight this year. They could sell it on late night Television. That the Sham Wow guys to pitch it… the “Garmin 5 to 9 kilo weight loss system” Guaranteed to drop the kilos in 2 weeks! This stuff practically sells itself. You will have the ****s and vomiting uncontrollably for 2 or 3 weeks but the weight loss is phenomenal.

You will be able to cycle like the Garmin Pro Tour team after just 1 full month of the program.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

Garmin are trying to counter the huge amount of negative cycling journalism relating to doping .... He is also one rider showing his recovery from the late 80s when less was known about how to recover.... We need actual power figures recorded in the race and further historical figures to justify the suspicions

There does need to be something to counter the negative view of cycling, otherwise it will make it much more difficult to resolve the situation. I wish Garmin wouldn't come out with the extreme spin tho; JV likened selling Wiggins to selling mother, and Lim implied he doesn't believe Landis doped. Unfortunately, these kinds of comments make me wonder what else they are just spouting sh!te about.