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More on the Betsy Andreu & Lance. Now with Sally Jenkins

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Eva Maria

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Curious. What were the restrictions on testing during most of those years? Stage winner, GC leader, and random. Right? I honestly don't know.

It depends on the years. It increased greatly after 2004 and 1998. Normally Stage, GC, Jersey Leaders, 2 randoms. 2-5 OOC per year.
 
Jul 22, 2009
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Eva Maria said:
It depends on the years. It increased greatly after 2004 and 1998. Normally Stage, GC, Jersey Leaders, 2 randoms. 2-5 OOC per year.

Now it is pretty much targeted on GC contenders with emphasis on blood passport, right?
 
TheArbiter said:
Yes people like to stand up for their own integrity and all that, but we must remember that the majority of riders took EPO in the 1990s. It's more a question who was not taking drugs. People outside the sport don't understand this, so obviously Armstrong could never concede this point. In ignorance they would say all his victories were a fraud.

I tend to think he won most of his ToF's clean in any event. You couldn't be that consistent and go that long without getting caught.

To the people who use 'never tested positive' as an excuse - here is an excerpt from the book of an Olympic Sprinter involved in BALCO. And then think about how effective the testing is.

"In April, I had pumped THG, EPO and a growth hormone into my body 17 times. I was s******g myself.
I was told some of the drugs were no worse than coffee, all part of the programme, according to Victor Conte.
Not once did I hesitate to take anything prescribed to me.

I was on the lot, knocking them back almost every day: THG, EPO and HGH, then stocking up with insulin and Liothyronine.
HGH changed my body shape, improving muscle definition and reducing body fat, but it is not the wonder drug it is made out to be. I can see it being used in other athletes and I know who they are.
EPO causes the blood to thicken, so I was given iron, vitamin E, folic acid, selenium, vitamin C, B1, B2, B6 and B12 to counteract the possibilities of it clotting.
I was feeling fitter than ever, I was in the gym lifting
By the time I returned to England in April, however, the stomach cramps had caused me to miss three meetings. I was worried, but I continued with the programme.
I was sat at home massaging The Cream, which is the drugs masking agent, into my arms when the knock on the door came.

The Cream leaves a white residue, taking about an hour to disappear and smells a little bit like burnt almonds. I don’t remember a feeling of panic as I calmly walked to the door, but the residue on my arms was clearly visible as I was wearing a sleeveless vest top.
I opened the door and an official-looking man spoke His words chilled me to the bone. We walked into the lounge; the tube of THG lay on top of the television and the faint smell of almonds permeated the air.
Victor had warned me about this first test. I thought I was ready. I thought I could be cool. Instead, I was sweating like a bull.
Eventually, I handed it over to him and stared at the canister like it was some radioactive substance.

He noticed my reaction and said: ‘Don’t worry, son, it’s only a little urine.’
The moment he left, I called Victor. ‘I’ve been tested,’ I blurted into the phone. I was on the point of tears.
‘I was rubbing The Cream in when he came to the door, it was on my fingers and could . . .’
Victor cut me off mid-sentence, relaxed me, told me it would be OK. I admitted I was taking THG and EPO and there was an uncomfortable silence at the end of the phone.
We checked dates and he said: ‘Dwain, you have been following the calendar day by day, haven’t you?’ I had.
I began breathing normally again. He berated me for answering the door to the tester and I apologised.

I had taken EPO nine times that month and yet opened the door to someone I had never seen before. That was stupid. There is an easy way around the system and one that is fool proof.
Quite simply, you hide."
 
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TheArbiter said:
You couldn't be that consistent and go that long without getting caught.

Pray tell, how could they have caught him when there wasn't a test for epo (and definitely not one for DYNepo)?

So actually... anyone could consistently shoot himself up with EPO all you want without being caught (barring the 50% line ofc).
 

Eva Maria

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Now it is pretty much targeted on GC contenders with emphasis on blood passport, right?

The list is deep, but we are back to were we were in 1999 before the EPO test. Once again the methods that give the greatest return, Transfusions and HGH, are undetectable.
 
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Franklin said:
Pray tell, how could they have caught him when there wasn't a test for epo (and definitely not one for DYNepo)?

So actually... anyone could consistently shoot himself up with EPO all you want without being caught (barring the 50% line ofc).

They had an opportunity to implement retro-testing for samples until they could develop test in following years. I don't think they were that serious yet about keeping the sport clean. They....being governing bodies in cycling.
 
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Eva Maria said:
The list is deep, but we are back to were we were in 1999 before the EPO test. Once again the methods that give the greatest return, Transfusions and HGH, are undetectable.

I think living quarters should be open to inspection during the events. This stuff has to be in tow if it is being used.
 
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They had an opportunity to implement retro-testing for samples until they could develop test in following years. I don't think they were that serious yet about keeping the sport clean. They....being governing bodies in cycling.

That wasn't Arbies point though ;)
 

TheArbiter

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Franklin said:
Pray tell, how could they have caught him when there wasn't a test for epo (and definitely not one for DYNepo)?

So actually... anyone could consistently shoot himself up with EPO all you want without being caught (barring the 50% line ofc).

There's been a test since 2001.
 
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TheArbiter said:
There's been a test since 2001.
Well "technically" some could have still doped with various undetectable forms of epo. But many were caught. The big fish on the Tour would have not risked it.

Although I dont think the "chicken man's" Dynepo non-negative was isolated. If he ran out of packed red cells to blood dope with he could have just started taking shots of epo.

TheArbiter said:
You couldn't be that consistent and go that long without getting caught.
I like to compare Lance's TDF's pre- Dr. Ferrari. He DNF'd in 1993, 94....36th in 1995, and then that DNF in 1996 with his cancer. He was not exactly "superman" apart from the Tour either. He DNF'd Paris-Nice a couple of times and had some other crappy results in Texas this passed winter. He really got it handed to him in some Mtn bike races.

Now you will mock me but all the top guys that win stuff in my area are strong start to finish. The only ones that suddenly improve are the ones that doped.
 
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El Imbatido said:
I just noticed froum user ozzie2 just posted a comment on the article, .

truly, how could I not add a comment??!!

Betsy really inspires me and reminds me of my wife in some ways

in that, okay, she is a woman right, so once they get off the phone to their girlfriends or stop shopping or looking at their butts in the mirror is when you know they are probably going to start on you for something, right. (humour ladies- im saying this in the context of what follows)

but my experience in life is that a good woman is about the only thing that can keep a man on the straight and narrow. well, my wife for me anyway. and this has nothing to do with being p*ssy whipped either

example. I run the sales for a very well known fund manager here in Oz. Yes, it was very easy in the last 5 years to jump on that gravy train (as we specifcally called it) and sell out. Lord knows I wanted to. really wanted to. Oh the money. I was approached to head up the sales for what became a global (industry) scandal name name alongside Bear Sterns when it all started blowing up in 2007.

The money was good but I knew the tide was going out on CDO's. I had friends take that role and sales roles within. If it weren't for my wife I would have taken that job- or a couple of others like it- and probably been in the paper for all the wrong reasons- or as bad- not been exosed but been just as guilty as the next bent bond / CDO salesman.

When Betsy said how she gave Frankie the glare in the doctors room when LA explained what he was on and Frankie didn't blink- man, I can resonate with Frankie on that one. I reckon I can guess EXACTLY what he was thinking and it wasn't about Lance or his career but about she who can make his life hell and how his life had just changed right then and there and he's in the thick of it too.

I can guess the blowtorch she put him through after that one. My wife is the same, and she supported me sufficient that I knew i had NO grounds- family, mortgage, holidays, glory, money- to join in the rort that we all knew was going on and be like everyone else. what did she think he was going to say when she confronted him. what did he think he was going to believe? some women might believe it- ahppy with denial or disbelief, not my wife, and clearly not this lady either.

It meant we had less than others (but more than most so I can't cry poor). but after this i retained slices of my integrity but more importantly an enduring relationship with my wife which is more important.

Maybe its the wives/ partners? If they tell their men its not acceptable- on health, integrity, family and other grounds be it ie moral/ spiritual/ ethical, maybe_this_is the only way the men will stop feeling pressured, or desirous to take PEDs?

For mine If my wife isn't impressed and can see through it, then it means very little to me. IF i were a cyclist (a stupid hypothetical i accept) and my doctor said dont do it, myeh, if my sponsor said don't do it, myeh, if my fellow team mates said dont do it, mmm possibly. But if she who must be obeyed said "if you do it i will leave you/ cut off your..." or "no success can compensate for what that will do to you in all ways" then yeah, i wouldn't. even it if meant i was left riding b-tours and fixing rims in a bike shop for a living- which has honour and integrity by the way- unlike being dirty.

Betsy inspires me because she has found the courage to stand by the truth and not cave in, knowing full well the cost that it was going to have on her. What a revolutionary act!

I can't speak for LA or others involved in this. But deep down surely they must regret where this has taken them all. was it worth it for them? maybe. but in my instance no, it would never have been worth it, and i am glad my wife gives me the strength to accept the consequence or fall out from doing the right thing. otherwise i would give in and join the ranks and say to myself "im just levelling the playing field/ im no different, we all do it" etc

Just a thought. maybe i'm miles off. maybe Betsy has private discussions she's smart enough not to disclose where other partners express their wish to get their husbands clean. or maybe it is a pipe dream and the whole world is dirty or on some kind of make?

Anyway Betsy. If you ever make it to Melbourne Australia you are welcome to stay with us or at least let us take you on some guided tours around Victoria. At the very least let us take you out for dinner. I don't know if you are still with Frankie but there's room for everyone kids and all.
 

TheArbiter

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Eva Maria said:
Give me a day, I will have Betsy stop by the forum and say hi.

No you're okay thanks. To invite someone so controversial that has tried to bring down the biggest name in cycling, for no obvious reason that anyone can work out, would not be welcome. Indeed it would be trollery.

If you want to suck up to her, continue to send her supportive emails. Don't drag down the forum.
 
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TheArbiter said:
No you're okay thanks. To invite someone so controversial that has tried to bring down the biggest name in cycling, for no obvious reason that anyone can work out, would not be welcome. Indeed it would be trollery.

If you want to suck up to her, continue to send her supportive emails. Don't drag down the forum.
lol, this forum would cause here to internally combust.
 

Dr. Maserati

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TheArbiter said:
No you're okay thanks. To invite someone so controversial that has tried to bring down the biggest name in cycling, for no obvious reason that anyone can work out, would not be welcome. Indeed it would be trollery.

If you want to suck up to her, continue to send her supportive emails. Don't drag down the forum.

It's called integrity.

Why should Betsy Andreu have to lie to protect Lance?
 

TheArbiter

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Dr. Maserati said:
It's called integrity.

Why should Betsy Andreu have to lie to protect Lance?

Why would she say anything in the first place? That's not lying, that's keeping your nose out, and then she wouldn't have to protect her integrity. Testifying in a court against him was the ultimate betrayal. It's not even clear that Frank wanted to go along with it.

And it does seem odd that they were in the room whilst LA would go into such personal information with the doctors. Does it sound right to you? I guess we'll never know the truth. Sad that they're still caught up in the bitteriness of it.
 

Eva Maria

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TheArbiter said:
Why would she say anything in the first place? That's not lying, that's keeping your nose out, and then she wouldn't have to protect her integrity. Testifying in a court against him was the ultimate betrayal. It's not even clear that Frank wanted to go along with it.

And it does seem odd that they were in the room whilst LA would go into such personal information with the doctors. Does it sound right to you? I guess we'll never know the truth. Sad that they're still caught up in the bitteriness of it.

HelmutRoole2/The DangerMan

For a brief moment your trolling was entertaining. Now you just look stupid. Give it a rest.
 

Dr. Maserati

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TheArbiter said:
Why would she say anything in the first place? That's not lying, that's keeping your nose out, and then she wouldn't have to protect her integrity. Testifying in a court against him was the ultimate betrayal. It's not even clear that Frank wanted to go along with it.

And it does seem odd that they were in the room whilst LA would go into such personal information with the doctors. Does it sound right to you? I guess we'll never know the truth. Sad that they're still caught up in the bitteriness of it.

Pretty simple - both Frankie & Betsy were subpoenaed to testify by SCA.

Actually they tried to resist because they claimed that where the original subpoena was issued did not have jurisdiction - so SCA filled another in their home State.

And yes - everything else seems right to me - thanks for asking
 

TheArbiter

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Pretty simple - both Frankie & Betsy were subpoenaed to testify by SCA.

Actually they tried to resist because they claimed that where the original subpoena was issued did not have jurisdiction - so SCA filled another in their home State.

And yes - everything else seems right to me - thanks for asking

Well they should have taken the 5th. LA would never have allowed them into his would-be death bed if they were going to spend years going after him.

Are you accusing LA's doctors of lying?
 

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