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More on the Betsy Andreu & Lance. Now with Sally Jenkins

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coffeebean2 said:
In Dr. Nichols' affadavit, he stated that:

1. In multiple doctor-patient interviews, Armstrong never admitted taking performance-enhancing drugs.
2. He began Armstrong's chemotherapy that same day as the alleged admission. He said he and other medical personnel had talked with Armstrong about his medical history.
3. If Armstrong had admitted to taking performance-enhancing drugs, Dr. Nichols would have been aware of it and would have recorded it - "Had I been present at any such 'confession,' I would most certainly have vividly recalled the fact," Nichols said. "I would have recorded such a confession as a matter of form, as indeed, would have my colleagues. None was recorded."

So, in my opinion, there's the kicker. Betsy Andreu testified two doctors came in and Armstrong admitted taking all of the PEDs. If so, why are none of those in Armstrong's medical chart? As Dr. Nichols stated, the PEDs were not recorded.

I don't know about you (you as in the general "you," not you personally), whenever I've gone to the doctor, everything I state as taking, whether it be aspirin, Tylenol, some herbal remedy, or a prescription, is recorded in my chart.

Just for the record, Dr. Nichols wasn't in the room with the Andreu's correct?
 

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coffeebean2 said:
In Dr. Nichols' affadavit, he stated that:

1. In multiple doctor-patient interviews, Armstrong never admitted taking performance-enhancing drugs.
2. He began Armstrong's chemotherapy that same day as the alleged admission. He said he and other medical personnel had talked with Armstrong about his medical history.
3. If Armstrong had admitted to taking performance-enhancing drugs, Dr. Nichols would have been aware of it and would have recorded it - "Had I been present at any such 'confession,' I would most certainly have vividly recalled the fact," Nichols said. "I would have recorded such a confession as a matter of form, as indeed, would have my colleagues. None was recorded."

So, in my opinion, there's the kicker. Betsy Andreu testified two doctors came in and Armstrong admitted taking all of the PEDs. If so, why are none of those in Armstrong's medical chart? As Dr. Nichols stated, the PEDs were not recorded.

I don't know about you (you as in the general "you," not you personally), whenever I've gone to the doctor, everything I state as taking, whether it be aspirin, Tylenol, some herbal remedy, or a prescription, is recorded in my chart.

Could you post a link or say where this information is? I know I have read this somewhere but cannot remember where, thank's.

The contribution of Dr. Nichol's testimony has been argued on another (multiple) thread.
Betsy Andreu was shown photo's of Dr. Nichol's and state's that he was not one of those Doctor's in the room - and of course the record's are not in the public domain.
 

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coffeebean2 said:
In Dr. Nichols' affadavit, he stated that:

1. In multiple doctor-patient interviews, Armstrong never admitted taking performance-enhancing drugs.
2. He began Armstrong's chemotherapy that same day as the alleged admission. He said he and other medical personnel had talked with Armstrong about his medical history.
3. If Armstrong had admitted to taking performance-enhancing drugs, Dr. Nichols would have been aware of it and would have recorded it - "Had I been present at any such 'confession,' I would most certainly have vividly recalled the fact," Nichols said. "I would have recorded such a confession as a matter of form, as indeed, would have my colleagues. None was recorded."

So, in my opinion, there's the kicker. Betsy Andreu testified two doctors came in and Armstrong admitted taking all of the PEDs. If so, why are none of those in Armstrong's medical chart? As Dr. Nichols stated, the PEDs were not recorded.

I don't know about you (you as in the general "you," not you personally), whenever I've gone to the doctor, everything I state as taking, whether it be aspirin, Tylenol, some herbal remedy, or a prescription, is recorded in my chart.

Nichols was not in the room, wasn't his doctor until a week later, Armstrongs complete records were never produced, Nichols Group got a nice Million $ "donation" right after his testimony. 2 other people who were in the room confirmed Betsy and Frankie's recollection.
 
coffeebean2 said:
In Dr. Nichols' affadavit, he stated that:

1. In multiple doctor-patient interviews, Armstrong never admitted taking performance-enhancing drugs.
2. He began Armstrong's chemotherapy that same day as the alleged admission. He said he and other medical personnel had talked with Armstrong about his medical history.
3. If Armstrong had admitted to taking performance-enhancing drugs, Dr. Nichols would have been aware of it and would have recorded it - "Had I been present at any such 'confession,' I would most certainly have vividly recalled the fact," Nichols said. "I would have recorded such a confession as a matter of form, as indeed, would have my colleagues. None was recorded."

So, in my opinion, there's the kicker. Betsy Andreu testified two doctors came in and Armstrong admitted taking all of the PEDs. If so, why are none of those in Armstrong's medical chart? As Dr. Nichols stated, the PEDs were not recorded.

I don't know about you (you as in the general "you," not you personally), whenever I've gone to the doctor, everything I state as taking, whether it be aspirin, Tylenol, some herbal remedy, or a prescription, is recorded in my chart.


Do you want the link to hear what Stephanie McIllvain said? Stephanie was also in the hospital room.

http://j.b5z.net/i/u/2132106/m/gregstef.mp3
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
Could you post a link or say where this information is? I know I have read this somewhere but cannot remember where, thank's.

The contribution of Dr. Nichol's testimony has been argued on another (multiple) thread.
Betsy Andreu was shown photo's of Dr. Nichol's and state's that he was not one of those Doctor's in the room - and of course the record's are not in the public domain.

Sure thing. Here it is:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/2006-06-23-armstrong-allegations_x.htm
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
The contribution of Dr. Nichol's testimony has been argued on another (multiple) thread.

Betsy Andreu was shown photo's of Dr. Nichol's and state's that he was not one of those Doctor's in the room - and of course the record's are not in the public domain.

My immediate thought is, since the lawyers for SCA (I'm assuming?) showed Betsy Andreu photos of Dr. Nichols, and she testified he wasn't one of the doctors, then how come they didn't try to find the doctors who questioned Armstrong to corroborate Betsy and Frankie's testimonies? Or perhaps the lawyers did try and couldn't find the doctors?
 
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Publicus said:
Just for the record, Dr. Nichols wasn't in the room with the Andreu's correct?

From what I understand, that is correct. That being said, Dr. Nichols' affadavit was not about what was or was not said in the room at the time.
 
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Eva Maria said:
wasn't his doctor until a week later, Armstrongs complete records were never produced, Nichols Group got a nice Million $ "donation" right after his testimony. 2 other people who were in the room confirmed Betsy and Frankie's recollection.

If Nichols wasn't Armstrong's doctor until a week later, then how could Nichols begin Armstrong's treatment the same day as the alleged confession?

Who was the other person in the room to allegedly confirm the Andreau's testimony, besides McIlvain? Serious question - I've only seen (read) McIlvain as the only person who could have possibly confirmed.
 
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Question:

How is it so much attention is focused around what Frankie heard at that moment, and why isn't he testifying about what he saw racing with Armstrong all those years? One seems to be something that people might mistake about what they heard. The other, no way Frankie didn't see some evidence of doping during his lieutenant years in an around the team.
 

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coffeebean2 said:
My immediate thought is, since the lawyers for SCA (I'm assuming?) showed Betsy Andreu photos of Dr. Nichols, and she testified he wasn't one of the doctors, then how come they didn't try to find the doctors who questioned Armstrong to corroborate Betsy and Frankie's testimonies? Or perhaps the lawyers did try and couldn't find the doctors?

Thanks - I had read that article before.
Of course it is from Armstrong's attorney.

The hospital was a 'training' hospital - with many Doctors there, I believe this is why they werent able to find the 2 Doctor's in the room.

I was amused by the piece that LA was considering suing whoever leaked part of the testimony - even though they released part of the testimony also.
 

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coffeebean2 said:
If Nichols wasn't Armstrong's doctor until a week later, then how could Nichols begin Armstrong's treatment the same day as the alleged confession?

Who was the other person in the room to allegedly confirm the Andreau's testimony, besides McIlvain? Serious question - I've only seen (read) McIlvain as the only person who could have possibly confirmed.

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scribe said:
Question:

How is it so much attention is focused around what Frankie heard at that moment, and why isn't he testifying about what he saw racing with Armstrong all those years? One seems to be something that people might mistake about what they heard. The other, no way Frankie didn't see some evidence of doping during his lieutenant years in an around the team.

Because he needs to work?
 

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scribe said:
Question:

How is it so much attention is focused around what Frankie heard at that moment, and why isn't he testifying about what he saw racing with Armstrong all those years? One seems to be something that people might mistake about what they heard. The other, no way Frankie didn't see some evidence of doping during his lieutenant years in an around the team.

Andreu admitted to using EPO in 1999, in the USPS team but that doesnt mean his is privy to what other riders are doing.

In most cases within a team they are never sure as to who is definitley doping - all the doping is done privatley, usually in a seperate room.
 
scribe said:
Question:

How is it so much attention is focused around what Frankie heard at that moment, and why isn't he testifying about what he saw racing with Armstrong all those years? One seems to be something that people might mistake about what they heard. The other, no way Frankie didn't see some evidence of doping during his lieutenant years in an around the team.

Because he was deposed for the former, and would have to be voluntarily snitching on his former teammates for no apparent reason in the latter. Makes sense to me.
 
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red_flanders said:
Because he was deposed for the former, and would have to be voluntarily snitching on his former teammates for no apparent reason in the latter. Makes sense to me.

382542-FB.jpg
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
Andreu admitted to using EPO in 1999, in the USPS team but that doesnt mean his is privy to what other riders are doing.

In most cases within a team they are never sure as to who is definitley doping - all the doping is done privatley, usually in a seperate room.

You honestly believe these guys don't discuss what they are doing, what works, what doesn't, how much to take, what is the next item, who to go to, where to go to them, how much it costs, how to mask, etc, etc?
 
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Dr. Maserati said:
Actually Betsy had her comment's removed from the comments box from [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2009/jun/28/lance-armstrong-comeback']this[/url]piece in The Gaurdian after calling in to question John Wilcockson ethics in writing a new [url="http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/jul/19/lance-armstrong-world-s-greatest-champion']book[/url] on LA.

But don't worry - here is the deleted comment:

betsyandreu wrote:
The truth is quite uncomfortable to Mr. Wilcockson so he simply decides not to even go near it.
At the Tour of California in 2008, Mr. Wilcockson asked my husband if he wanted to talk about the "old times" he shared with Lance Armstrong for a book he was writing on him. My husband declined. Mind you, this was February 2008 and Mr. Wilcockson wanted to talk to my husband about Mr. Armstrong as he put it "from a rider's perspective".
Fast forward to the spring of 2009. Someone who had a copy of Mr. Wilcockson's book read me a passage pertaining to me. On page 355 , Mr. Wilcockson singles me out as being the only person in that hospital room to have heard lance admit to using performance enhancing drugs to the doctor who asked him the question which evoked his response that he had used such doping products. I was never the only person to testify to this or even admit it happened. Mr. Wilcockson's wilfull ommission of the truth is despicable. I told Mr. Wilcockson by phone and by e-mail that I thought the omission of my husband's testimony was deceitful. Not only did my husband, Frankie, testify the same as I - that lance did indeed tell the doctors he used performance enhancing drugs (and elaborated which ones he did use) but so did Stephanie McIlvain in a phone conversation to Greg LeMond (although she would later lie about it under oath even though there's proof of this conversation). "Telling him (Frankie) in 2008 you wanted to talk to him about the good ole days is far far different than asking him to explain his deposition where he states he knows lance doped," is what I wrote Mr. Wilcockson in an e-mail. Omitting Frankie's name is nothing but disingenuous and unethical.

Mr. Wilcockson wanted to talk to my husband about one thing in February of 2008. When he was commissioned by Mr. Armstrong to write this biography later on that year, he never contacted me or Frankie about that which he wrote in the book pertaining to the hospital room. Never. Instead, Mr. Wilcockson outright lies by writing in this hagiography that I was the only person in the hospital room to hear lance admit to using performance enhancing drugs.

Mr. Wilcockson has been duplicitous. He has perpetuated the lie and distorted the truth at the expense of others. His integrity is so lacking that it's pathetic

Deleted? Well, journalism it indeed a dying animal. Regardless of who or what I believe, I NEVER believe any opinion or view should be censored. It makes me want to puke when I see damage control like that going on.

Mr Wilcockson and Ms Jenkins appear to fall lock step into the belief that ignoring and suppressing information and people that run counter to your line of thinking is OK in journalism. That my friends is the production of propaganda. I honestly fear we are forgetting what real journalism is in favor of popularity and profit.
 
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scribe said:
You honestly believe these guys don't discuss what they are doing, what works, what doesn't, how much to take, what is the next item, who to go to, where to go to them, how much it costs, how to mask, etc, etc?

Sure they do, and what keeps it silent for the most part is that many of those people are also your only real friends. It takes a brave man indeed to be willing to favor honesty and integrity over ostracization. Almost nobody is capable of doing it in every instance. Some can live that way in most things. The greatest number can do it when the outcome will benefit them in some way. And then there are the few who live by the code of denial. If you want to see a microcosm of it, go work in a high school.
 

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scribe said:
You honestly believe these guys don't discuss what they are doing, what works, what doesn't, how much to take, what is the next item, who to go to, where to go to them, how much it costs, how to mask, etc, etc?

I think a lot of riders have those discussions with their coachs - not with other riders. Even Kohl had no idea who else was doping in Gerolsteiner - but he mentioned Rasmussen was sharing the same equipment (not that he saw him use it!).

Now I am sure some riders do -but again there is a big difference between having a discussion on using PED's and actually seeing some one shoot up!

From memory - i read that LA & Andreu had a discussion on using PED's.
 
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Scribe is not totally right...There is certainly stuff the top guys do not tell their teamates about. And not everybody on all the teams get 'refills' either.

There are definitely think Lance knows about Contador still does not...Lance was more "jacked" for this Tour than Contador. IF all were clean Lance wouldnt be top 30. Maybe Contador would still win.
 

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scribe said:
You honestly believe these guys don't discuss what they are doing, what works, what doesn't, how much to take, what is the next item, who to go to, where to go to them, how much it costs, how to mask, etc, etc?

When Tyler , Kevin, and Lance went off for their pre-Tour training camps with Ferrari Frankie was not invited. The "In Crowd" is a narrow selection.