Most believable Tour in years?

[Big Doopie]

Even pre-90 this was not completely unheard of. Lieing low can be a good tactic... and indeed sometimes people hit form very fast and late (for example Greg Lemond).

not correct. you are probably remembering when lemond was criticized for racing "only the tour" in 1990, when he started the season way overweight. In 1989, he was trying to find form throughout the season (with a good showing at Crit International). lemond noted years later that after the shooting accident he really only had 4 months of great form. those four months happened to coincide with two TDFs and a WC. also, after 1990, he was set back irrevocably by the advent of epo

however, before that lemond won the super prestige in the 1983 which was the precursor to the World Cup and crowned the best season-long rider. Same goes for fignon and kelly and hinault... before O2 vector doping, the same riders often competed year-round through various races.

nibali has followed the very same trajectory as all the O2 vector dopers before him, however. his huge jump from the dauphine being only one symptom.

 

[Big Doopie]

If Nibali tests positive this might actually be the cleanest tour in a long time.

actually i'll take nibali over valverde. the idea of valverde winning the tour makes me want to vomit.

both should be gone tho if we want to believe in a clean(ish) winner.

 

[Escarabajo]

Even pre-90 this was not completely unheard of. Lieing low can be a good tactic... and indeed sometimes people hit form very fast and late (for example Greg Lemond).

And OTOH we have riders ripping it up a whole year (Wiggo Froome) and we have questionmarks on them as well(rightly so!).

Again, I don't have any faith in Nibbles, but this is not exactly telltale. There are many ways to peak towards a race even if you are clean.

You are right. But it is only one criteria. But is one thing that bugs me about him. It is not telltale of course.

Forgot to mention the Ferrari links, but I think we are just focused on performance only.

 

[Tonton]

Most believable Tour in years?

When I last logged in, there were 51 viewers in Road Racing, 'only' 30 in 'The Clinic'. I remember many times when it was the other way around

 

[Tonton]

actually i'll take nibali over valverde. the idea of valverde winning the tour makes me want to vomit.

both should be gone tho if we want to believe in a clean(ish) winner.

Sooooo Agree!!!

 

[Benotti69]

If Vino says it is cleaner, well then it must be........

 

[King Of Molehill]

Why is 'French' being used as a benchmark?

I've been reading a lot of comments lately suggesting, or hoping, that the peleton must be cleaning up its act because French riders/teams are competitive in this year's TDF.

Firstly the French aren't immune to doping. A quick (well it's never quick these days browse through doping cases over the past two decades brings up cases virtually every year of a French rider being caught (or worse i.e. the Festina affair).

So whatever public marketing the French have done over the years, perhaps since Festina and riders like Bassons speaking out along with French riders lack of big performances in Grand Tours has led people to somehow believe this must be due to them being 'clean'. But we can go through the enormous list of riders we know or have admitted to doping in the past who never placed highly in a big race. So why use that as a benchmark?

I guess I just don't get why people keep saying it because being French and past poor results don't = clean riding (at least not logically based on everything we know).

I want to believe as much as the next guy but history tells us otherwise.

 

[BikeCentric]

The reason people use French riders as a benchmark is because after Festina the French passed relatively strict anti-doping regulations which many believe led to the phenomenon of French riders being less competitive in aggregate for years. Your point is of course correct though, this doesn't make them immune from doping as Jalabert, Morreau, Virenque, Durand, Voekler in particular don't / didn't seem clean to me.

 

[Parker]

The reason people use French riders as a benchmark is because after Festina the French passed relatively strict anti-doping regulations which many believe led to the phenomenon of French riders being less competitive in aggregate for years.

And French teams never doped again. Ever. Especially Cofidis.

 

[Big Doopie]

I've been reading a lot of comments lately suggesting, or hoping, that the peleton must be cleaning up its act because French riders/teams are competitive in this year's TDF.

Firstly the French aren't immune to doping... So why use that as a benchmark?

No they r not immune. But it is precisely since Festina that the French riders have had to submit to a blood passport. 10 full years before the rest of the peloton. The French were also one of the first if not the first to criminalize doping -- something other countries (particularly Spain) took many years to do. These are the reasons why Jalabert and Virenque refused to ride for French teams so they could continue to blood dope with impunity. The fact that it is these two riders that are still making fortunes off their fraud is just another one of the injustices.

It was precisely when the French teams alone had to submit to the suivie longitudinale that the phrase "in peloton a deux vitesses" became popular. The French complained that they couldn't compete with the doped up foreigners while Armstrong derided them as lazy and not training hard enough. I do not believe it is disconnected that as the blood passport kicks in everywhere, the French are starting to do better.

Will some French riders be caught doing steroids, etc. yes. Most likely. But they are much MUCH less likely to be doing O2 vector doping which is the game-changer.

So, indeed, the French riders and teams are in fact a benchmark to a certain level of cleanliness. A level where the ability to use O2 vector doping has been diminished enough so that cleaner riders can now compete.

I cannot help but think that the recent publication and prosecution of blood passport infractions has more riders fearing anomalies and clean riders gaining confidence.

 

[Parker]

No they r not immune. But it is precisely since Festina that the French riders have had to submit to a blood passport. 10 full years before the rest of the peloton. The French were also one of the first if not the first to criminalize doping -- something other countries (particularly Spain) took many years to do. These are the reasons why Jalabert and Virenque refused to ride for French teams so they could continue to blood dope with impunity. The fact that it is these two riders that are still making fortunes off their fraud is just another one of the injustices.

So the whole Cofidis affair never actually happened. That's good to know.

This idea that the French stopped doping because it was illegal is crap.

 

[Big Doopie]

So the whole Cofidis affair never actually happened. That's good to know.

This idea that the French stopped doping because it was illegal is crap.

Lol. I forgot that one mustn't use qualifiers in the Clinic. Unlike the real world that is many shades of grey, the world of the Clinician is nothing but black and white.

You are a complete fool.

 

[Benotti69]

The reason people use French riders as a benchmark is because after Festina the French passed relatively strict anti-doping regulations which many believe led to the phenomenon of French riders being less competitive in aggregate for years. Your point is of course correct though, this doesn't make them immune from doping as Jalabert, Morreau, Virenque, Durand, Voekler in particular don't / didn't seem clean to me.

The strict anti doping laws introduced after Festina didn't stop David Millar

Although he did move to Spain.......

 

[Parker]

Lol. I forgot that one mustn't use qualifiers in the Clinic. Unlike the real world that is many shades of grey, the world of the Clinician is nothing but black and white.

You are a complete fool.

No you're the fool. I'm not the one who tried to make some sort of generalisation about an entire nation of cyclists.
They may have generally cleaned up earlier than teams from other countries but that was largely because of more favourable circumstances.

And I'm not a 'Clinician'. I routinely disagree with most of them. But the 'French are the cleanest' is masterful Gallic PR which you have lapped up - just like the MPCC is.

 

[Big Doopie]

The strict anti doping laws introduced after Festina didn't stop David Millar.......

ROTFLMAO.

All you people citing Cofidis, you do realize that it is PRECISELY because doping was criminalized and the police were involved that they were even caught.

Meanwhile foreign teams never had to worry about that.

LOL AND LOL again!!

And you simply don't understand human nature if you don't think that is a huge disincentive to many. As catching people in the blood passport is also a disincentive. That's why Clentadoppucci and Piti etc.need to be kicked out because it will scare some straight. And clean riders will be more likely to stay clean.

As lemond and that guy from USADA says anti doping is about protecting athletes who want to compete clean. The best way to do that is to catch the dopers, but also dissuade them, de-incentivize them. A functioning blood passport and the threat of police action help to do these very things.

I am just ROTFFLMFAO at u people using Cofidis as some bad thing. It is precisely THE example of the French system WORKING while other countries (particularly SPAIN) did nothing to protect the rider who wanted to compete clean.

Thank you for proving my freakin' point.

 

[Benotti69]

ROTFLMAO.

All you people citing Cofidis, you do realize that it is PRECISELY because doping was criminalizes and the police were involved that they were even caught.

Meanwhile foreign teams never had to worry about that.

LOL AND LOL again!!

And you simply don't understand human nature if you don't think that is a huge disincentive to many. As catching people in the blood passport is also a disincentive that's why Clentadoppucci and valverde, etc.need to be kicked out because it will scare some straight and clean riders will be more likely to stay clean.

As lemond and that guy from USADA says anti doping is about protecting athletes who want to compete. The best way to do that is to catch the dopers, but also dissuade them, de-incentivize them. A functioning blood passport and the threat of police action help to do these very things.

I am just ROTFFLMFAO at u people using Cofidis as some bad thing. It is precisely THE example of the French system WORKING while other countries (particularly SPAIN) did nothing to protect the rider who wanted to compete clean.

Thank you for proving my freakin' point.

Pascal Hervé
Philippe Gaumont
Fredy Hamlet
Maxime Lefebvre
Christian Luce
Cénéric Racault
Tristan Valentin
Clément Lhotellerie
Mickaël Larpe
Alexandre Dougnier

some French dopers since '98 who want to argue against your point.....

 

[Parker]

ROTFLMAO.

All you people citing Cofidis, you do realize that it is PRECISELY because doping was criminalized and the police were involved that they were even caught.

Meanwhile foreign teams never had to worry about that.

LOL AND LOL again!!

And yet without any of these anti-doping laws in place Operacion Puerto still happened in Spain.
Buying and selling controlled or banned drugs has been illegal for decades. You don't have to be a sportsman to be guilty of trading EPO. It's only the act of doping that has been made illegal in recent years.

 

[red_flanders]

This Tour is just a bad coincidence. Nibali is riding with just one leg. People just don't notice because the competition has been awful. Had Contador or Froome been there Nibali would have had to step up a notch or all his notches in order to keep up. We would be telling another story.

I always thought he had talent. The only thing that bugs me about him is the lack of performance before his biggest races during his career. He has repeated the same pattern as the Texan in that respect.

I think you're right. More's the pity.

 

[Big Doopie]

Pascal Hervé
Philippe Gaumont
Fredy Hamlet
Maxime Lefebvre
Christian Luce
Cénéric Racault
Tristan Valentin
Clément Lhotellerie
Mickaël Larpe
Alexandre Dougnier

some French dopers since '98 who want to argue against your point.....

Um. Lol again. Who ARE most of these people? And the fact that they were caught is good, isn't it?

The only two of note are Herve who stems from Festina and Gaumont who is a well-chronicled druggie-party-guy.

LOL!

 

[Big Doopie]

And yet without any of these anti-doping laws in place Operacion Puerto still happened in Spain.
Buying and selling controlled or banned drugs has been illegal for decades. You don't have to be a sportsman to be guilty of trading EPO. It's only the act of doping that has been made illegal in recent years.

Puerto, are you freakin' kidding me? Do you even understand the irony of what you are saying and how you continue to prove my point.

Puerto wasa COMPLETE failure. The Spanish refused to prosecute or even release the names precisely because doping was NOT against the law. Holy freakin' crap. The only people who got "caught" we're those whose blood bags finally made it to CONI or the German ADA. Valverde was only punished because he made the mistake of crossing into Italy. Not a single Spanish athlete was prosecuted by the Spanish authorities. Not one. Clentadoppucci was even exonerated by the Spanish (surprise surprise) despite having blood bags there. Puerto is precisely an example of a country system benefitting dopers compared to the French system that after Festina was WAY ahead in the fight against doping.

Holy crap. I should stop posting cuz every time you guys post you simply re-enforce my point.

 

[Tinman]

Most believable Tour in years?

When I last logged in, there were 51 viewers in Road Racing, 'only' 30 in 'The Clinic'. I remember many times when it was the other way around

There is some serious fatigue now on discussing doping in cycling. Many posters and fans have just opted out, seen it all before, different clowns but same circus year after year.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Puerto, are you freakin' kidding me? Do you even understand the irony of what you are saying and how you continue to prove my point.

Puerto wasa COMPLETE failure. The Spanish refused to prosecute or even release the names precisely because doping was NOT against the law. Holy freakin' crap. The only people who got "caught" we're those whose blood bags finally made it to CONI or the German ADA. Valverde was only punished because he made the mistake of crossing into Italy. Not a single Spanish athlete was prosecuted by the Spanish authorities. Not one. Clentadoppucci was even exonerated by the Spanish (surprise surprise) despite having blood bags there. Puerto is precisely an example of a country system benefitting dopers compared to the French system that after Festina was WAY ahead in the fight against doping.

Holy crap. I should stop posting cuz every time you guys post you simply re-enforce my point.

There's no proof AC had a blood bag. His name came up in some documents.

 

[Big Doopie]

There's no proof AC had a blood bag. His name came up in some documents.

Holy crap. I woke up this morning and the sky was pink.

 

[whittashau]

Lemond seemed to imply on ES that this year's Tour is the most believable in a while. He said this after checking out the watts that Nibali has been producing

make of it what you will.

 

[Netserk]

Lemond seemed to imply on ES that this year's Tour is the most believable in a while. He said this after checking out the watts that Nibali has been producing

make of it what you will.

I guess the same would've happened last year if Purito and Quintana had crashed out before the mountains and Froome had over 2' before the mountains.