Most believable Tour in years?

[FoxxyBrown1111]

If Nibali tests positive this might actually be the cleanest tour in a long time.

Even Horner looks normal

Sorry, but I have to disagree. It´s never normal that a 43 year old just coming off the death bed is just 1/2 hour down on Nibali, while fine young healthy men like Tom Dumoulin give it all to stay within a hour down. It´s not that TD gave up (I followed his performance closer for reasons), he really tries...

 

[doperhopper]

König: "Finally my bad day came, it could've been worse though. Most of my opponents had their bad days already anyway, it's just normal. And that's a sign that this TDF is clean."

and again, nobody can beat Sky in the clean business - little Richie clearly goes for the "most bad days" jersey (as Vroomie told us in his Mein Climb: "how can we possibly be more clean?")

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

There's no proof AC had a blood bag. His name came up in some documents.

LOL. There was no proof that Ullrich was doping. Nobody saw him transfusing...
OFC AC was/is a hardcore doper....

 

[Energy Starr]

I actually think there may be some substance to this....at least for #2 on down. Not buying Nibs but the movement in placings and frequent bad days leads me to believe there is a chance (I wrote A CHANCE). I tend to believe that if everyone were clean there would be no dominant rider(s). So many things have to go right for someone to win a race with 200 people. I guess I don't believe things can always go right for the same people time after time.

 

[pmcg76]

I actually think there may be some substance to this....at least for #2 on down. Not buying Nibs but the movement in placings and frequent bad days leads me to believe there is a chance (I wrote A CHANCE). I tend to believe that if everyone were clean there would be no dominant rider(s). So many things have to go right for someone to win a race with 200 people. I guess I don't believe things can always go right for the same people time after time.

I don't understand this idea if everyone were clean then there would be no dominant rider. Long before EPO/Blood doping, Tours were often won by huge margins, even individual stages. Didn't Hinault win a Tour by 13 minutes.

As I posted elsewhere, the 1986 stage to Alpe d'Huez was saw LeMond/Hinault win by 5 minutes over everyone else, one stage. That is almost the same as what Nibali is currently leading by.

 

[Energy Starr]

I don't understand this idea if everyone were clean then there would be no dominant rider. Long before EPO/Blood doping, Tours were often won by huge margins, even individual stages. Didn't Hinault win a Tour by 13 minutes.

As I posted elsewhere, the 1986 stage to Alpe d'Huez was saw LeMond/Hinault win by 5 minutes over everyone else, one stage. That is almost the same as what Nibali is currently leading by.

It's just my opinioin. By dominant I mean winning many races over the course of the year or years, more so that dominant in any one race or stage. I fully believe that a clean rider could be dominant on any one day. BTW, Hinault wasn't clean....

 

[pmcg76]

It's just my opinioin. By dominant I mean winning many races over the course of the year or years, more so that dominant in any one race or stage. I fully believe that a clean rider could be dominant on any one day. BTW, Hinault wasn't clean....

Yes but LeMond was considered the equal of Hinault was he not. So we are talking about a clean guy winning one stage by 5 minutes over doping rivals(bar Hinault) and finishing 10mins ahead of the 3rd placed rider in GC. I predict that Nibali's margin to third will be less than that and definitely won't be 18mins to 4th place.

 

[Energy Starr]

Yes but LeMond was considered the equal of Hinault was he not. So we are talking about a clean guy winning one stage by 5 minutes over doping rivals(bar Hinault) and finishing 10mins ahead of the 3rd placed rider in GC. I predict that Nibali's margin to third will be less than that and definitely won't be 18mins to 4th place.

Sure, I suppose so. The GC's are much closer now than they were before (before being the tour you speak of and previously), so I argue that Nibs gap today is even more suspect. I didn't really intend to get into a Nibs doping debate, but just to say I'm sort of open to the possibilty that from 2 on there is a chance there may be less doping. Yes, I intended to write that sentence that way.

 

[lemoogle]

I don't know but we should consider that the whole earpiece thing makes a difference here too. Riders do what they need to do an that is all and racing is more conservative and grouped.

 

[Oldman]

I don't understand this idea if everyone were clean then there would be no dominant rider. Long before EPO/Blood doping, Tours were often won by huge margins, even individual stages. Didn't Hinault win a Tour by 13 minutes.

As I posted elsewhere, the 1986 stage to Alpe d'Huez was saw LeMond/Hinault win by 5 minutes over everyone else, one stage. That is almost the same as what Nibali is currently leading by.

Nibali wasn't even sweating today. Any reasonable doubt had to go out the window watching simple physiological evidence. Anyone who has ridden these Grand Tour climbs at their own pace can tell you after 4 of them in a row you'd at least look taxed. He wasn't alone, either as I sincerely feel that the Tour is looking away because of the French "resurgence". My as*!

 

[meat puppet]

A numbers comparison between 2013 and 2014 says advantage froome. Then again nibali prolly not all in. Had we seen fuentes vs ferrari vs leinders stuff might have been quite something.

http://veloclinic.tumblr.com/post/92677092203/2013-vs-2014-tour-de-france-power-duration-comparison

 

[SundayRider]

Sorry but when 1st had almost 6 minutes lead over 2nd place with 3 stages to go its not believable. You then look at Astanas backroom staff and its not believeable at all.

 

[Franklin]

Sorry but when 1st had almost 6 minutes lead over 2nd place with 3 stages to go its not believable.

You realize that that actualy makes a lot of Pre-Epo TdF results unbelievable?

There are very good reasons to suspect foul play, but claiming the gaps are to big is completely arbitrary.

 

[SundayRider]

You realize that that actualy makes a lot of Pre-Epo TdF results unbelievable?

There are very good reasons to suspect foul play, but claiming the gaps are to big is completely arbitrary.

True, but racing was different in those days.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

True, but racing was different in those days.

What was different? A big pelton, slipstream, time gap announcements (even though not trou RR), bikes... all been there at that time. Nothing changed.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Sorry but when 1st had almost 6 minutes lead over 2nd place with 3 stages to go its not believable. You then look at Astanas backroom staff and its not believeable at all.

Since resumption of TdF after WWII, the winning margin stats are:

count 67
mean 0:06:39
max 0:28:17
min 0:00:08
median 0:04:35

If we went back to pre war, well it would be longer as many tours were won by hours, not minutes.

For period 1991-2005:
mean 0:05:09
max 0:09:09
min 0:01:01
median 0:04:59
count 15

IOW the average winning margin gaps during main EPO era were actually smaller than the long term average.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I just saw Oleg on NBCSports talking about how only lower-level riders are doping, and that it's now all about nutrition, other bullsh!t, other bullsh!t, other bullsh!t for the top riders.

I'm more convinced than ever that nothing has changed, especially considering how disgusting the mouth is that those words came from.

 

[Franklin]

True, but racing was different in those days.

Interestingly enough I and quite a few others think at least the tactics are much more reminiscent of the 80ies. And no, that's not proof it's cleaner, just an observation. Anyone betting against Nibbles being a charger either knows a lot more than we do is utterly clueless

But that said, I love the race. Stages are spectacular and the fight for the podium is exciting till the end.

 

[red_flanders]

IOW the average winning margin gaps during main EPO era were actually smaller than the long term average.

WRT the larger peloton, that's exactly what I'd expect, and what riders all reported during the 90's as a big difference.

The idea of "champions" or "patrons" who controlled the peloton by force of personality and talent was said to have abated as levels increased across the boards. The water-carriers were often as strong as leaders in many races, and the gaps closed all the way 'round.

Certainly one would expect bunching at the top with a drug like EPO which gave so much relatively cheap, easy-to-use advantage to so many riders.

 

[proffate]

WRT the larger peloton, that's exactly what I'd expect, and what riders all reported during the 90's as a big difference.

The idea of "champions" or "patrons" who controlled the peloton by force of personality and talent was said to have abated as levels increased across the boards. The water-carriers were often as strong as leaders in many races, and the gaps closed all the way 'round.

Certainly one would expect bunching at the top with a drug like EPO which gave so much relatively cheap, easy-to-use advantage to so many riders.

so you're saying it leveled the playing field?

 

[Energy Starr]

I just saw Oleg on NBCSports talking about how only lower-level riders are doping, and that it's now all about nutrition, other bullsh!t, other bullsh!t, other bullsh!t for the top riders.

I'm more convinced than ever that nothing has changed, especially considering how disgusting the mouth is that those words came from.

I still think the statments by riders, DS's, owners, whoever is involved, are by far the most damning evidence of their doping. It's so obvious that if it weren't going on, these participants wouldn't say the ridiculous crap that they do. People seem to love that "mother of the imbicile" comment Nibs made. I say it's bs. Clean people wouldn't care how many times someone asked them about it, they just wouldn't. This statement is just a tantrum just like that other dude used to throw....

 

[Warhawk]

Clean people wouldn't care how many times someone asked them about it, they just wouldn't.

That's baloney, it's just like the "an innocent person would never confess to a crime they didn't commit" argument. If you keep pressing someone you'll get a reaction.

 

[del1962]

I still think the statments by riders, DS's, owners, whoever is involved, are by far the most damning evidence of their doping. It's so obvious that if it weren't going on, these participants wouldn't say the ridiculous crap that they do. People seem to love that "mother of the imbicile" comment Nibs made. I say it's bs. Clean people wouldn't care how many times someone asked them about it, they just wouldn't. This statement is just a tantrum just like that other dude used to throw....

Don't agree with that, if you are innocent and people keep insinuating things about you, you will get annoyed, different personalities will have different breaking points but everyone will get annoyed at some point.

 

[AICA ribonucleotide]

That's baloney, it's just like the "an innocent person would never confess to a crime they didn't commit" argument. If you keep pressing someone you'll get a reaction.

******** if you were a clean rider and you just got beat by that Nibali performance why would you be saying there's no doping in the Peloton.

 

[MarkvW]

Awesome Tour. It's refreshing that a historically clean team led by a clean (and ethical) former pro is doing so well!

Cycling has finally turned the page. It's a new era! The new generation is proving it can ride clean.

Bravo!