Most believable Tour in years?

[willbick]

In a totally clean, competitive TdF you would expect the gaps to be small nowadays as all the riders prepare in very similar ways and no-one would have any big advantage in the way they prepare and are looked after than the others. If all the top GC guys in the EPO era were on the gear then again u would expect fairly small gaps but the doping factor and the complexities of exactly who was doing what and how effective it was as a performance booster would probably affect the size of time gaps.

I think generally over recent decades you see the time gaps becoming closer as the sport becomes increasingly sports science based and 'homogenous', i.e. all the riders train in similar ways. Going back a few decades yr bound to see bigger gaps coz the sport as a whole was less of a level playing field and not so 'professional'

I guess thats a round about way of saying Nibali's performance seems pretty dubious to me. For one guy to totally dominate a bunch of others who every stage ride to a very similar level is a bit suspicious. Could a clean Nibali really dominate a guy like Valverde so much, day after day? I mean Valverde is maybe not the very best but he's proven since returning from the ban to be very close to the best climbers consistently and Nibali has just toyed with him

 

[Energy Starr]

If I were clean and I was really concerned what everyone thought, I would do the things that people think would show I am clean. NOONE does those things. The reason noone does is doping. "Show me your files", ok, what else do you want? "Your blood passport", ok, what else? It would be no skin off of a clean rider's back to show everything. I think it's bs that people argue releasing files could give away some kind of secret. You may know that rider X can do 450 watts for 30 minutes or whatever, but that doesn't mean you can do it. Might give you something to shoot for, but so what. You still have to be in the right position, be on a good day, not bonk, not get caught out, not crash, etc. This "mother of the imbicile" statement is just another example of attacking people who are asking the questions they should ask. I mean these guys really expect us to believe this stuff, right? If they do, they get to answer the questions.

 

[Energy Starr]

In a totally clean, competitive TdF you would expect the gaps to be small nowadays as all the riders prepare in very similar ways and no-one would have any big advantage in the way they prepare and are looked after than the others. If all the top GC guys in the EPO era were on the gear then again u would expect fairly small gaps but the doping factor and the complexities of exactly who was doing what and how effective it was as a performance booster would probably affect the size of time gaps.

I think generally over recent decades you see the time gaps becoming closer as the sport becomes increasingly sports science based and 'homogenous', i.e. all the riders train in similar ways. Going back a few decades yr bound to see bigger gaps coz the sport as a whole was less of a level playing field and not so 'professional'

I guess thats a round about way of saying Nibali's performance seems pretty dubious to me. For one guy to totally dominate a bunch of others who every stage ride to a very similar level is a bit suspicious. Could a clean Nibali really dominate a guy like Valverde so much, day after day? I mean Valverde is maybe not the very best but he's proven since returning from the ban to be very close to the best climbers consistently and Nibali has just toyed with him

AND, I would venture to say participation is much greater nowadays, decreasing the gaps. By participation I mean cycling in general.

 

[DirtyWorks]

******** if you were a clean rider and you just got beat by that Nibali performance why would you be saying there's no doping in the Peloton.

To get another WT contract. Which, because of the way the sport is structured is THE PAYOFF. Below WT it's very very difficult to earn a living exclusively as a professional cyclist. At least in the U.S. Maybe other countries are different.

 

[Oldman]

In a totally clean, competitive TdF you would expect the gaps to be small nowadays as all the riders prepare in very similar ways and no-one would have any big advantage in the way they prepare and are looked after than the others. If all the top GC guys in the EPO era were on the gear then again u would expect fairly small gaps but the doping factor and the complexities of exactly who was doing what and how effective it was as a performance booster would probably affect the size of time gaps.

I think generally over recent decades you see the time gaps becoming closer as the sport becomes increasingly sports science based and 'homogenous', i.e. all the riders train in similar ways. Going back a few decades yr bound to see bigger gaps coz the sport as a whole was less of a level playing field and not so 'professional'

I guess thats a round about way of saying Nibali's performance seems pretty dubious to me. For one guy to totally dominate a bunch of others who every stage ride to a very similar level is a bit suspicious. Could a clean Nibali really dominate a guy like Valverde so much, day after day? I mean Valverde is maybe not the very best but he's proven since returning from the ban to be very close to the best climbers consistently and Nibali has just toyed with him

Your generalization about the evolution of training is valid but still, each GT will have it's own character. Weather, crashes, rider retirements can change the dynamics and skew results like this year's Tour. Given a Tour with Froome/Wiggans, Contador still intact would be totally different and I'm sure you'd agree. Some of the riders in the top ten would have been shelled by more serious aggression and others may have capitalized on that aggression. Current day team strategy and personnel is a far cry from the Old Days.
Now we have the benefit of total coverage and that's where, IMO, the performances of the last two days raise suspicions. You can see clearly the effort applied and can discount needless theatrics/posturing to analyze the performances.
I'd guess that's how you arrive at the conclusion that Nibali toyed with Valverde and the rest. Me too.
The gaps are relatively meaningless.

 

[DirtyWorks]

In a totally clean, competitive TdF you would expect the gaps to be small nowadays...

Not true. 4-6 minute GC lead is pretty normal without EPO.

Things are looking pretty good this year. Certainly much better than I expected. You have to wonder what has changed.

 

[lemoogle]

Not true. 4-6 minute GC lead is pretty normal without EPO.

Things are looking pretty good this year. Certainly much better than I expected. You have to wonder what has changed.

Froome crashed out?

Take sky out and 2011/2012 look similarly good.

 

[Benotti69]

Froome crashed out?

Take sky out and 2011/2012 look similarly good.

Good?

I disagree.

 

[lemoogle]

Good?

I disagree.

I was saying it in the context he was saying "good" , as in "this year" good.

I don't think anything major has changed since last year aside from some of the major teams crashing out.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Froome crashed out?

Take sky out and 2011/2012 look similarly good.

I've got a simple answer:

Maybe.
No.

It's too hard to summarize/compare races depending on how you pick the factors. I'm not trying to be evasive. It becomes a long aimless discussion pretty quickly.

FWIW, I rely on veloclinic for some objectivity. That might be good or bad depending on your opinion of his work.

 

[Cookster15]

Not true. 4-6 minute GC lead is pretty normal without EPO.

Things are looking pretty good this year. Certainly much better than I expected. You have to wonder what has changed.

I am surprised to see you admit this as you've had a pretty defeatist attitude before - like most of the Clinic. But I hope you are right. What has changed? Could it be Cookson?

 

[HSNHSN]

Don't agree with that, if you are innocent and people keep insinuating things about you, you will get annoyed, different personalities will have different breaking points but everyone will get annoyed at some point.

That may be true (and probably is), but that doesn't mean people actually have to show being annoyed. There are many examples of this, actually and especially if someone has had some media training (which I assume all top riders will have had), this is something that shouldn't show. No matter how often you ask someone if he doped.

 

[Taxus4a]

Credible, the same as the last years, no more. Maybe in 2011 still difficult to believe people as Voeckler, or in general Europcar, but anything really ugly...

 

[DirtyWorks]

I am surprised to see you admit this as you've had a pretty defeatist attitude before - like most of the Clinic. But I hope you are right. What has changed? Could it be Cookson?

Let's see what happens in a few years...

2014 Giro came in positively sane if you rely on veloclinic's work, and now le Tour has a bunch of plausible performances without Froome and Contador.

As for what's changed, this is an interesting question.

This is the same UCI hiding doping sanctions, Makarov firing ethics committee leader by defunding the committee. ASO/RCS would be the most likely parties. You have to wonder if Bach at the IOC lets the UCI be the "dirty sport" is getting old or something.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I still think the statments by riders, DS's, owners, whoever is involved, are by far the most damning evidence of their doping. It's so obvious that if it weren't going on, these participants wouldn't say the ridiculous crap that they do. People seem to love that "mother of the imbicile" comment Nibs made. I say it's bs. Clean people wouldn't care how many times someone asked them about it, they just wouldn't. This statement is just a tantrum just like that other dude used to throw....

This...............

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

so you're saying it leveled the playing field?

I know it was in jest, but the concept of level laying field is where you ensure all play by the rules and spirit of the sport, and not one of levelling physiological and other performance capabilities, which will of course be naturally variable.

 

[Gavandope]

A crazy sports month.

First an Englishman wills the Germans to win the World Cup and now a Rosbif will be glued to the box wanting French riders to win the mega-dope filtered yellow jersey.

Far more deep down on the bike than Wiggo and Froome, though I confess was great for the nation getting the duck off with a back to back. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one, b*gger..

It's the lightest grey dope shade since Le Mond, wasn't just a one off in 2011it's been practically black for so long. More riders looking hammered in turbo and paying for it, marvellous.

Sorry too much beer

 

[sniper]

Not true. 4-6 minute GC lead is pretty normal without EPO. Things are looking pretty good this year. Certainly much better than I expected.

to be sure, the poster you replied to did not say "in an epo-less peloton", but in a "clean peloton".
while things behind nibali might look a bit better than in other years (no train, for instance), in my humble opinion a fully charged race leader turns all alleged cleanliness behind him rather irrelevant.
and any of the saxo riders clean? hardly.
i'm afraid clean riders still don't stand a chance, especially not in the mountains.

You have to wonder what has changed

with dirty, dawg and nibs we'd have three guys thumping the rest with mutant performances.
sky i guess would've looked pretty normal this year (with the exception of dawg),
but saxo? with dirty they'd have been as dominant this tour as usps and sky in their best years.

also, in terms of attitude, i hear or see no indications whatsoever of an increased cleanliness in the peloton. (e.g. nobody that i'm aware of - except walsh - is complaining about the numerous convicted dopers characterizing the peloton.)

 

[luckyboy]

König really sticks out in that TT top 10

 

[roundabout]

He does. But not by as much as you think.

 

[DirtyWorks]

to be sure, the poster you replied to did not say "in an epo-less peloton", but in a "clean peloton".

I don't agree with this, but it's not important at all.

while things behind nibali might look a bit better than in other years (no train, for instance), in my humble opinion a fully charged race leader turns all alleged cleanliness behind him rather irrelevant.
and any of the saxo riders clean? hardly.
i'm afraid clean riders still don't stand a chance, especially not in the mountains.

with dirty, dawg and nibs we'd have three guys thumping the rest with mutant performances.
sky i guess would've looked pretty normal this year (with the exception of dawg),
but saxo? with dirty they'd have been as dominant this tour as usps and sky in their best years.

also, in terms of attitude, i hear or see no indications whatsoever of an increased cleanliness in the peloton. (e.g. nobody that i'm aware of - except walsh - is complaining about the numerous convicted dopers characterizing the peloton.)

I agree with this. Every bit. Given the recent history of the sport, it cannot be denied. Unfortunately, there are no clear answers.

 

[luckyboy]

I figured he would be 15th-20th~ position considering what I have seen of him before.

 

[roundabout]

I figured he would be 15th-20th~ position considering what I have seen of him before.

Weren't you the guy who was wondering 2 years ago why NetApp were invited to the Giro?

I see that your ability to rate their riders has not improved.

 

[luckyboy]

Did I? Was probably mad that the Colombia team didn't get invited. And A&S..

NetApp didn't do anything at that Giro did they so

 

[Dazed and Confused]

It is not possible to win big races clean at this point.

There has not been a single point in this tour where Nibali was under pressure except perhaps the cobbles stage where he annihilated the field.

Yellow since the beginning of stage 3 (except one day). 4 Stage wins. 8 minute lead. Zero bad days.

Cruise control.

Not normal.