Most Farcical Tour Ever?

[UlleGigo]

Strictly speaking, it would be more believable if Navarro somehow won the Vuelta.

Navarro has no chance. Jesse Sergent will win the Vuelta.

 

[180mmCrank]

That's it? One example from rowing? How is that an incredible and clean performance?

Oh, that's right. They're Brits.

National partisanship takes the day. I see a lot more British fans than cycling fans here these days. Look, I'd be happy if a Romanian won the TdF, but if the won it like Sky, I'd be disgusted.

OMG it's exhausting. How many examples do you want and/ or would make a difference 3, 10, 100 ? I have a feeling that what ever examples were given it would just prompt more argument.

AND I picked a British example because it's one where I KNOW there was no doping involved.

The prevailing wisdom seems to be everyone who ever achieves anything in sport does it by cheating. How depressing. All I can say is that this is not my experience and my experience is first hand.

But whatever that's it I'm done.

T

 

[Franklin]

AND I picked a British example because it's one where I KNOW there was no doping involved.

I'm sorry, but if that's true, how did you imagine us to be magically convinced?

We see a few guys in a boat, there is no conclusion either way. Add that rowing is a typical responder sport (endurance+strength), where doping makes a huge impact. Chances of a clean gold medal (in that era) are remote if you are a casual observer.

So I could go along for the sake of discussion that this is a clean performance.... but what's the convincing bit here that you clearly expects us to be boweled over?

 

[thehog]

No, it is exactly the same.

Teammates drafting though multiple stages over arduous courses with HUGE money available. Both sports with 'hole-in-one' insurance contracts and massive endorsement deals.

And both sports with incredible and well-known legacies of doping. Both sports were so bad in 1998 that WADA was created.



Have you participated in either sport? If you have rowed, have you even seen a coxed pair?

Dave.

British rowing had an East German coach from the glory days. It wasn't till they opened the files years later they found out that he was very adept at doping teenagers. He coached those two young lads in the video. World junior champions they were. I remember them also.

 

[180mmCrank]

I'm sorry, but if that's true, how did you imagine us to be magically convinced?

We see a few guys in a boat, there is no conclusion either way. Add that rowing is a typical responder sport (endurance+strength), where doping makes a huge impact. Chances of a clean gold medal (in that era) are remote if you are a casual observer.

So I could go along for the sake of discussion that this is a clean performance.... but what's the convincing bit here that you clearly expects us to be boweled over?

So I was not intending anyone to be bowled over. I was asked for an example of an "unbelievable" performance - I think. The specific request was something like "...out of interest could you ..."

And as stated previously I understand why people are and should be skeptical but the prevailing wisdom on here goes way beyond skeptical ... There are categoric statements made by people and generalizations that can not be substantiated. Typically followed by name calling of anyone who tries to represent a contrary or more balanced view.

It's variously amusing and frustrating to try and navigate this through "text based" communication.

But hey it's a forum and people are entitled to their opinions.

T

 

[MarkvW]

If anyone is fit to judge, it surely must be the guy who said they'd stopped watching the tour almost a fortnight ago.

Christopher Lee! Very appropriate!

 

[180mmCrank]

British rowing had an East German coach from the glory days. It wasn't till they opened the files years later they found out that he was very adept at doping teenagers. He coached those two young lads in the video. World junior champions they were. I remember them also.

He did not coach these guys - they were coached by one of their teachers from Hampton School - Steve Gunn.

The guy you are referencing had no connection with the Searles.

T

 

[Boeing]

Thehog made a good point that even in the Postal years, the leaders of other teams were able to stick with Armstrong until near the end. Postal's domestiques were used to isolate the leaders of other teams. Armstrong would then put in the killing blow at the end of the stage. This year's Tour is even more ludicrous. It would be like watching Popovych destroy Ullrich, Basso, and Beloki. Heck, it is worse than that because at one time Popo was a legitimate contender for a Giro win.

Has any Tour been a bigger farce than this one?

i take back all the bad things I said about you

 

[thehog]

He did not coach these guys - they were coached by one of their teachers from Hampton School - Steve Gunn.

The guy you are referencing had no connection with the Searles.

T

Ok no problems. They appear on good terms these days. Very close.

Lucky he didn't have much influence as the head coach on these two young lads.

 

[nighttrain]

The PED addled USPS teams dominated their TDF's with a united front. All riders had 1 mission...support LA. The most entertaining aspect of TDF'12 was watching Sky obliterate the competition as they sorted out the quagmire of Froome being obviously stronger than Wiggy all the while throwing a couple of bones to their fast finisher, Cavendish. A dominant team performance unmatched in recent decades.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I think it is a pretty good bet that McQuaid paved the way. In corrupt hands, the passport presents an incredible opportunity to manipulate the sport. A warning here or there and whole teams can be neutered. We know for a fact that the UCI has warned riders before.

I wonder when it will be time for the French to win again. It would be a massive boon to the ASO.

It make sense more & more, plus what RR said. It explains both: The Sky domination and the lower power outputs.

Next year is no olympics, so maybe some bucks on a Rolland, Kern, Pinot, Voeckler Zop-10??

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Zubeldia?

OK Ferminal, your point. OTOH, as you know, the spain don´t give a damm. Just look at Valv-Piti and Multi-AC: They still believe solely they didn´t dope, and that they were unfair treated. It´s a slap into the face of Basso, Ullrich and Rasmussen who were hit much harder.

 

[raindog]

"Most Farcical Tour Ever?"

The only farcical thing around here is TheClinic.
Seriously, what's the average age here, fourteen?
Why even bother with bike racing at all, why not watch beach volleyball or snooker?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

For a 12-Post guy you are very harsh. "forteen years of age" etc... Well some guys made great calls, gave great links and show understanding of sports in a big way. That shows experience. Like Dr. Maserati, Alpe, BroDeal, GalicHo, Thehog, RR, Dekker, and many others. While your contribution is a meaningless insulting post. If you don´t like what you read here, shut up and go away.

 

[andy1234]

"Most Farcical Tour Ever?"

The only farcical thing around here is TheClinic.
Seriously, what's the average age here, fourteen?
Why even bother with bike racing at all, why not watch beach volleyball or snooker?

Don't get annnoyed. Take it as a sign of a job well done

Many posters here have a pathological anger towards the sport.
Its an anger created from following the mirage that American cycling has always been.
From the LA Olympic team through to US Postal, it has all been a fabrication.

Watching what is potentially the real deal, can't help but touch a few raw nerves.

 

[Digger]

Not really surprising Porte is riding better now than with Riis since he was a neo pro back then. Program, really? For his neo pro's? When was the last time someone riding for Riis went positive? Doesn't add up sorry.

I expect Rogers to add a fourth ITT worlds to palmares with all this hype he's getting in the clinic. Do you reckon its worth a bet?

Basso Fuentes...Frank Schleck Fuentes. (Basso was accompanied by Riis to Fuentes)
Is that enough?

 

[hrotha]

2009 is 3 years ago. The guy was multi Olympic medallist and a World Champion ... we are not really suggesting that he doesn't have a substantial pedegree as an athlete - are we? Wiggins was and is a World Class athlete by any measure.

I have no clue about Froome and others but Wiggins is clean.

Riis won in 1996 and his 5th place in 1993 was 3 years before too.

Coincidentally, Riis' breakout came at the tender age of 29.

 

[Mellow Velo]

2 of the top 3 from last year were there. 4 Tour of Spain winners. 2 Giro winners. Tour of California winner. Last year's winner was also there. Throw in a VDB here and there and I say you had a very strong field. They were just made to look stupid.

Only guys missing were Contador and Shleck.

I say Sky just rode way too fast for anyone to do anything. But I think you knew that.

Tell us some more numbers and physiology. You're much better at that game.

You certainly do like to cut your cloth according to it's width, Hog.
Evans-sick
Schleck-removed
Cobo- training
Menchov- old and gearless
Valverde-Playing safe
Nibali- Did good
Vino- I'm surprised you missed the chance to have 5 Vuelta winners in your stellar contender line up.
Menchov- double mention
Hesjedahl- crashed out
Gesink-crashed and crocked
Sanchez- crashed out

Don't think the way Sky rode had much to do with the fate of most of the guys above.

 

[sniper]

You certainly do like to cut your cloth according to it's width, Hog.
Evans-sick
Schleck-removed
Cobo- training
Menchov- old and gearless
Valverde-Playing safe
Nibali- Did good
Vino- I'm surprised you missed the chance to have 5 Vuelta winners in your stellar contender line up.
Menchov- double mention
Hesjedahl- crashed out
Gesink-crashed and crocked
Sanchez- crashed out

Don't think the way Sky rode had much to do with the fate of most of the guys above.

Sky decided their fate.

Evans sick? Or made to look sick by Sky?
Schleck removed? He already was chanceless before that.
Menchov old and gearless? Or made to look old and gearless by Sky?
etc.

 

[hrotha]

Each team has 1-3 guys who are supposed to do something, Climb, Sprint, Attack. A big chunk of them did nothing this Tour. They guys that work for them set them up and they did nothing. Many of the animators were frauds. In an environment where they get testing 20+ times a year and their doctors are getting arrested they suddenly don't animate the race anymore.

Guys that used to dominate are getting dropped by guys doing a fraction of what led the Tour 10 years ago. Time to let some new guys get a chance

Why aren't more new guys stepping up then? It was still 4 Sky riders in a group of 8. Forget about the old guys who used to dominate - where are the rest? Only Sky riders can step up? What would explain that?

 

[spalco]

Has any Tour been a bigger farce than this one?

Um, yeah. How about 1996, 1998, 2006, 2007 and 2008?

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Evans sick? Or made to look sick by Sky?

2011 Tour Evans pulls the elite peloton up the Galibier
2012 Tour Evans is struggling to keep up with his own domestique

Schleck removed? He already was chanceless before that.

Maybe chanceless but he finished 3nd the year before. However, riding Giro, Suisse and admitted that he pretty much had overdone racing this year.

Menchov old and gearless? Or made to look old and gearless by Sky?

What exactly has Menchov done this season apart from earning the first part of this nickname?

 

[MrRoboto]

Even though I found it quite entertaining, I have to go with the 2007 edition.

 

[sniper]

2011 Tour Evans pulls the elite peloton up the Galibier
2012 Tour Evans is struggling to keep up with his own domestique


Maybe chanceless but he finished 2nd the year before. However, riding Giro, Suisse and admitted that he pretty much had overdone racing this year.

What exactly has Menchov done this season apart from earning the first part of this nickname?

True. but these are guys who could have potentially peaked and competed with Sky and who nonetheless failed obviously. Why?
UCI warning (Menchov), team crisis (Schleck), and cleverly deciding to ride clean this year (Evans) are my best guesses.
If A.Schleck and Contador would have been there, A.Schleck would have faltered like his brother, and Contador would have been the Contador of 2011.

Sky at the moment seem to be the only team with a well-structured doping program in place and a guarding UCI hand above their head.

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

Why aren't more new guys stepping up then? It was still 4 Sky riders in a group of 8. Forget about the old guys who used to dominate - where are the rest? Only Sky riders can step up? What would explain that?

There were a few that stepped up - TJVG, Pinot, Rolland... as the old guard are discarded I think we will start to see a lot of new faces making an impact.

It was only on the last stage that the liquidgas train finally came out to play and cracked Sky's domestiques except for Froome.

Trying to explain Froome's form is one thing I do have trouble with. Take him out and Wiggins would have been isolated on more than one occasion.