Motor doping thread

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Oct 16, 2010
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ScienceIsCool said:
I think it's just a bit of an optical illusion. If you take a look at these photos, all taken after the race you can see a wide range how dirty the rear wheel looks based on angle and lighting. Check out pics 10, 11, and 14. They all look wildly different.
If you take the picture of the bike as it is presented at his place and zoom in on it there's not much doubt in my mind. Front wheel (and downtube): mud splashed all over it; Rear wheel: squeeky clean.

ScienceIsCool said:
More interesting is why they were passing off a different bike as Hayman's at Eurobike.

http://www.roadbikereview.com/reviews/eurobike-day-1-weird-wacky-and-wonderful-from-germany

Wrong wheels (not C50's). Wrong race number (62, which belonged to Sky's Andrew Fenn). Race number is attached differently. The decals on the fork are different. Bottle cages are different. Weird.
interesting.
 
Sep 15, 2014
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Jagartrott said:
AS accused crosser Van Aert of mechanical doping.
The first 'proof' is rather unconvincing.
http://as.com/videos/2017/02/05/portada/1486293513_555196.html?autoplay=1

The second video is somewhat weird, but it is very brief:
https://twitter.com/finnfitzgerald/status/820643097612845056
OK so the first video we know. The second one made me jump up the first few times I saw it, then I noticed the comments saying left pedal hits the ground, making the wheel spin. I guess that could explain it. But doesnt that wheel turn a lot?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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sniper said:
ScienceIsCool said:
I think it's just a bit of an optical illusion. If you take a look at these photos, all taken after the race you can see a wide range how dirty the rear wheel looks based on angle and lighting. Check out pics 10, 11, and 14. They all look wildly different.
If you take the picture of the bike as it is presented at his place and zoom in on it there's not much doubt in my mind. Front wheel (and downtube): mud splashed all over it; Rear wheel (plus all tubes at the rear end): squeeky clean.
 
Jul 5, 2009
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sniper said:
sniper said:
ScienceIsCool said:
I think it's just a bit of an optical illusion. If you take a look at these photos, all taken after the race you can see a wide range how dirty the rear wheel looks based on angle and lighting. Check out pics 10, 11, and 14. They all look wildly different.
If you take the picture of the bike as it is presented at his place and zoom in on it there's not much doubt in my mind. Front wheel (and downtube): mud splashed all over it; Rear wheel (plus all tubes at the rear end): squeeky clean.


John Swanson
 
Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
More interesting is why they were passing off a different bike as Hayman's at Eurobike.

http://www.roadbikereview.com/reviews/eurobike-day-1-weird-wacky-and-wonderful-from-germany

Wrong wheels (not C50's). Wrong race number (62, which belonged to Sky's Andrew Fenn). Race number is attached differently. The decals on the fork are different. Bottle cages are different. Weird.

John Swanson
Didn't you never wonder how Merckx's Hour bike could be in different countries at the same time?
 
Re: Re:

fmk_RoI said:
ScienceIsCool said:
More interesting is why they were passing off a different bike as Hayman's at Eurobike.

http://www.roadbikereview.com/reviews/eurobike-day-1-weird-wacky-and-wonderful-from-germany

Wrong wheels (not C50's). Wrong race number (62, which belonged to Sky's Andrew Fenn). Race number is attached differently. The decals on the fork are different. Bottle cages are different. Weird.

John Swanson
Didn't you never wonder how Merckx's Hour bike could be in different countries at the same time?
The plot thickens.
 
Jul 5, 2009
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fmk_RoI said:
ScienceIsCool said:
More interesting is why they were passing off a different bike as Hayman's at Eurobike.

http://www.roadbikereview.com/reviews/eurobike-day-1-weird-wacky-and-wonderful-from-germany

Wrong wheels (not C50's). Wrong race number (62, which belonged to Sky's Andrew Fenn). Race number is attached differently. The decals on the fork are different. Bottle cages are different. Weird.

John Swanson
Didn't you never wonder how Merckx's Hour bike could be in different countries at the same time?
No, I totally get it. No Santa Claus and all that. I'm just wondering why they'd go to all the trouble of getting muddy in all the right ways and then shrug at the most obvious details. It'd be a lot easier to just take one of his spares. Or show off a replica.

John Swanson
 
Re: Re:

Sorped said:
Jagartrott said:
AS accused crosser Van Aert of mechanical doping.
The first 'proof' is rather unconvincing.
http://as.com/videos/2017/02/05/portada/1486293513_555196.html?autoplay=1

The second video is somewhat weird, but it is very brief:
https://twitter.com/finnfitzgerald/status/820643097612845056
OK so the first video we know. The second one made me jump up the first few times I saw it, then I noticed the comments saying left pedal hits the ground, making the wheel spin. I guess that could explain it. But doesnt that wheel turn a lot?
Agreed.
 
Aug 3, 2016
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Tienus said:
It sounds like we agree in general.
Yes I feel the same.


Tienus said:
Its got nothing to do with the motor discussion but I dont see him making a tactical mistake. Its the last lap iirc and overtaking just before a turn can give you a huge advantage. If he would not be riding close to the limit he would not be that good.
You're right, I retract this statement as it was clearly nonsensical.
What I wanted to say is that his decision was a bit risky, but if you're not willing to take such risks you better don't buy a cyclocross bike to begin with - let alone trying to win world cup races on it..


Tienus said:
The question is why people think it looks odd and post it.
If van Aert or other riders trick our brains often we have to wonder why did this not happen before and it could ofcourse just be the aftermath of the Femke incident.
I echo King Boonens statements on confirmation bias.
We all have the tendency to see what we want to see or what we expect to see. And right now we're trying hard to find motors - so we're going to find indications for them whereever we look.
I bet you that 10 years ago nobody would have looked at the first two clips of van Aert (his back wheel completely losing tracking in the mud and his pedal hitting the ground while he carries the bike) and have raised any suspicion about a motor being in play. Because nobody even thought about that. But now it's a hot topic and people connect these two clips with motors, even though there is nothing crazy (at least in my mind) to see there.
(There are so many perception biases to fall for, just quickly browse through this list. Although I'm very aware of them and trying hard to avoid them as good as I can, it's kinda sobering for me to realize from time to time that I'm not very good at it - and others probably neither.)

I guess it's a similar thing with bike changes right now. Since we know that they might be used to switch the dodgy material in and out, all alarm bells go off everytime there is a change. But there are so many bike and wheel changes that they can't possibly be all related to motors. Some of them probably are, most aren't.
And note that I'm not saying that we shouldn't investigate these things (that's the fun part after all), but that it's good to keep in mind that the circumstances make us very prone to seeing ghosts. So we need to be careful otherwise we're guaranteed to fool ourselves.

Speaking of bike changes. Do you remember that there already was a time with rumours about them? (Although they were less frequent than nowadays.) But then it was about people using them to cheat the newly introduced weight limit on climbs. And about some new secret super-light bikes.
This kind of rumour is almost completely gone now. Why? Technology would be there, will and possibility to cheat would be there and it would provide an advantage on climbs for sure. People are not seeing it because they're not looking for it. We only see what we expect to see.
(By the way: I'm not claiming that this is actually a thing now, it's only an example for illustration.)
 
Aug 3, 2016
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sniper said:
as we're (re-)analyzing more or less dodgy footage, there was this one from Adrien Costa:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZerARsCqAE
The dodgy thing, imo is *not* the spinning of his rear wheel (which may have been induced by the impact of the pedal on the ground), but how quickly he picks up his bike *after* he sees his wheel spinning.
He just crashed on the ground to catch a breath, then sees his wheel spinning and remarkably decides to stand up, pick up his bike and rest on it.

Looks to me, as soon as he sees his wheel spinning he has a brief heart attack thinking "christ on a bike didnt I switch of the engine?"
Certainly possible.
My first thought was that he probably realized that he should bring his bike into sight again with all those photographers taking pictures of him. Because giving your sponsors and suppliers public exposure in times of success is also part of being a pro - otherwise they might not be too happy with him..
 
Jan 30, 2016
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@ Tom
I also agree with you and KB on the confirmation bias. Thats why I like to post things and read the feedback.

Speaking of bike changes. Do you remember that there already was a time with rumours about them? (Although they were less frequent than nowadays.) But then it was about people using them to cheat the newly introduced weight limit on climbs. And about some new secret super-light bikes.
This kind of rumour is almost completely gone now. Why? Technology would be there, will and possibility to cheat would be there and it would provide an advantage on climbs for sure. People are not seeing it because they're not looking for it. We only see what we expect to see.
(By the way: I'm not claiming that this is actually a thing now, it's only an example for illustration.)
I actually posted a couple of months ago on the bikes that seemed to be tuned down too much. The downtube shifter was part of that. I said I thought they where cheating possibly with motors or with underweight bikes.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Tienus said:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HsBJsnpYvanTAQiMxqY72sn54u6OU0_aUsOiJFSdub83rsbPWid8PQqlarfXXW6Z7tV3sOJPQo3qwwr99W5IdZc=s0

There is a print on the side wall of the rear wheel tire where the valve is. In the bike at his home the print is in a different location. He changed his rear wheel or tire before or after the finish.
bingo.

yet "Dad's dirty bike should not be cleaned or touched", is what he said.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Tom the Engine said:
Certainly possible.
My first thought was that he probably realized that he should bring his bike into sight again with all those photographers taking pictures of him. Because giving your sponsors and suppliers public exposure in times of success is also part of being a pro - otherwise they might not be too happy with him..
fair point.

just rewatched it and indeed i think i made too much out of that.

Tienus' observation that his rearwheel is the same as Van Aerts was nice, though.
 
Jan 30, 2016
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sniper said:
Tienus said:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HsBJsnpYvanTAQiMxqY72sn54u6OU0_aUsOiJFSdub83rsbPWid8PQqlarfXXW6Z7tV3sOJPQo3qwwr99W5IdZc=s0

There is a print on the side wall of the rear wheel tire where the valve is. In the bike at his home the print is in a different location. He changed his rear wheel or tire before or after the finish.
bingo.

yet "Dad's dirty bike should not be cleaned or touched", is what he said.
Some teams change bikes a lot other teams rear wheels. OGE changes a lot of rear wheels during the race. A picture close to the finish would be better evidence.
 
Aug 3, 2016
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veganrob said:
So the guy who is not familiar at all with cyclocross and watched his first race ever just recently is telling the World Champion how to ride his bike?
What's your point exactly? I'm not telling anyone how to ride a bike. All I did was analyzing this clip.
I made a case that in my view the wheel spin was due to extraordinarily bad traction caused by several different factors (that I listed in detail). It's only about general statements about the physics of traction and I don't think you need to be very familiar with cyclocross to understand those. I'm happy to discuss any of those points if you disagree.

To clarify: When I wrote that he made a "mistake" then that's in the general context of additionally reducing traction of his rear wheel. Not a mistake in racing or riding his bike. The goal of the rider is not to maximize traction but to be as fast as possible and as stated there, the fact that he managed to stay upright with relative ease indicates to me that he knew exactly what he was doing. But my argument was about lack of traction of the rear wheel and not about his performance.

(And if this gives you some peace of mind: I'm not familiar with cyclocross but quite experienced on a mountainbike. And riding a very steep uphill dirt road involves exactly the same points about rear wheel traction - except that the front wheel will lift if you put too much weight at the rear part.)
 
Re: Re:

Tom the Engine said:
sniper said:
as we're (re-)analyzing more or less dodgy footage, there was this one from Adrien Costa:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZerARsCqAE
The dodgy thing, imo is *not* the spinning of his rear wheel (which may have been induced by the impact of the pedal on the ground), but how quickly he picks up his bike *after* he sees his wheel spinning.
He just crashed on the ground to catch a breath, then sees his wheel spinning and remarkably decides to stand up, pick up his bike and rest on it.

Looks to me, as soon as he sees his wheel spinning he has a brief heart attack thinking "christ on a bike didnt I switch of the engine?"
Certainly possible.
My first thought was that he probably realized that he should bring his bike into sight again with all those photographers taking pictures of him. Because giving your sponsors and suppliers public exposure in times of success is also part of being a pro - otherwise they might not be too happy with him..
Whatever the reason for picking up the bike, it is more than obvious that he puts the bike down on the pedal which then turns the back wheel. Do some people here even own bikes or ride, because some of the crap being put forward sounds like it is coming from people who have never owned a bicycle in their life. Definitely people who have never been at a cyclo-cross race in their life. Thats for sure.
 
Re: Re:

Tienus said:
sniper said:
Tienus said:
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/HsBJsnpYvanTAQiMxqY72sn54u6OU0_aUsOiJFSdub83rsbPWid8PQqlarfXXW6Z7tV3sOJPQo3qwwr99W5IdZc=s0

There is a print on the side wall of the rear wheel tire where the valve is. In the bike at his home the print is in a different location. He changed his rear wheel or tire before or after the finish.
bingo.

yet "Dad's dirty bike should not be cleaned or touched", is what he said.
Some teams change bikes a lot other teams rear wheels. OGE changes a lot of rear wheels during the race. A picture close to the finish would be better evidence.
Sorry, you mean one of those three prints on the tire? Those three out of which you see two on his home bike and the third you don't see because of the angle but which (based on position of the other two) is right by the valve, exactly like on the race photo?
 
Aug 3, 2016
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pmcg76 said:
Tom the Engine said:
sniper said:
as we're (re-)analyzing more or less dodgy footage, there was this one from Adrien Costa:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZerARsCqAE
The dodgy thing, imo is *not* the spinning of his rear wheel (which may have been induced by the impact of the pedal on the ground), but how quickly he picks up his bike *after* he sees his wheel spinning.
He just crashed on the ground to catch a breath, then sees his wheel spinning and remarkably decides to stand up, pick up his bike and rest on it.

Looks to me, as soon as he sees his wheel spinning he has a brief heart attack thinking "christ on a bike didnt I switch of the engine?"
Certainly possible.
My first thought was that he probably realized that he should bring his bike into sight again with all those photographers taking pictures of him. Because giving your sponsors and suppliers public exposure in times of success is also part of being a pro - otherwise they might not be too happy with him..
Whatever the reason for picking up the bike, it is more than obvious that he puts the bike down on the pedal which then turns the back wheel. Do some people here even own bikes or ride, because some of the crap being put forward sounds like it is coming from people who have never owned a bicycle in their life. Definitely people who have never been at a cyclo-cross race in their life. Thats for sure.
Keep your cool and take a minute to read the posts entirely and don't just quickly browse through them.
sniper explicitly stated that it's *not* about the spinning back wheel that is very clearly caused by putting the bike down on the pedal.

These are the videos that go around in social media and sometimes even appear in renowned media. Isn't the Clinic the right place to discuss them?
 
Jan 30, 2016
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Sorry, you mean one of those three prints on the tire? Those three out of which you see two on his home bike and the third you don't see because of the angle but which (based on position of the other two) is right by the valve, exactly like on the race photo?
I was just thinking myself they are tubulars so the print is probably allways the same. I have only experience with clinchers so I dont know to be honest.
 
Re: Re:

Tom the Engine said:
pmcg76 said:
Tom the Engine said:
sniper said:
as we're (re-)analyzing more or less dodgy footage, there was this one from Adrien Costa:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZerARsCqAE
The dodgy thing, imo is *not* the spinning of his rear wheel (which may have been induced by the impact of the pedal on the ground), but how quickly he picks up his bike *after* he sees his wheel spinning.
He just crashed on the ground to catch a breath, then sees his wheel spinning and remarkably decides to stand up, pick up his bike and rest on it.

Looks to me, as soon as he sees his wheel spinning he has a brief heart attack thinking "christ on a bike didnt I switch of the engine?"
Certainly possible.
My first thought was that he probably realized that he should bring his bike into sight again with all those photographers taking pictures of him. Because giving your sponsors and suppliers public exposure in times of success is also part of being a pro - otherwise they might not be too happy with him..
Whatever the reason for picking up the bike, it is more than obvious that he puts the bike down on the pedal which then turns the back wheel. Do some people here even own bikes or ride, because some of the crap being put forward sounds like it is coming from people who have never owned a bicycle in their life. Definitely people who have never been at a cyclo-cross race in their life. Thats for sure.
Keep your cool and take a minute to read the posts entirely and don't just quickly browse through them.
sniper explicitly stated that it's *not* about the spinning back wheel that is very clearly caused by putting the bike down on the pedal.

These are the videos that go around in social media and sometimes even appear in renowned media. Isn't the Clinic the right place to discuss them?
I think you will find sniper says "may have been induced by the pedal hitting the ground". There is no may, you can see clearly, that is what happened. Also why put imo in commas? Maybe when you have been here long enough, you will understand what is happening.

Based on your posts I have read here, you are a worthy contributor, but you will tire of the garbage.
 
Aug 3, 2016
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Re: Re:

pmcg76 said:
Tom the Engine said:
pmcg76 said:
Tom the Engine said:
sniper said:
as we're (re-)analyzing more or less dodgy footage, there was this one from Adrien Costa:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZerARsCqAE
The dodgy thing, imo is *not* the spinning of his rear wheel (which may have been induced by the impact of the pedal on the ground), but how quickly he picks up his bike *after* he sees his wheel spinning.
He just crashed on the ground to catch a breath, then sees his wheel spinning and remarkably decides to stand up, pick up his bike and rest on it.

Looks to me, as soon as he sees his wheel spinning he has a brief heart attack thinking "christ on a bike didnt I switch of the engine?"
Certainly possible.
My first thought was that he probably realized that he should bring his bike into sight again with all those photographers taking pictures of him. Because giving your sponsors and suppliers public exposure in times of success is also part of being a pro - otherwise they might not be too happy with him..
Whatever the reason for picking up the bike, it is more than obvious that he puts the bike down on the pedal which then turns the back wheel. Do some people here even own bikes or ride, because some of the crap being put forward sounds like it is coming from people who have never owned a bicycle in their life. Definitely people who have never been at a cyclo-cross race in their life. Thats for sure.
Keep your cool and take a minute to read the posts entirely and don't just quickly browse through them.
sniper explicitly stated that it's *not* about the spinning back wheel that is very clearly caused by putting the bike down on the pedal.

These are the videos that go around in social media and sometimes even appear in renowned media. Isn't the Clinic the right place to discuss them?
I think you will find sniper says "may have been induced by the pedal hitting the ground". There is no may, you can see clearly, that is what happened. Also why put imo in commas? Maybe when you have been here long enough, you will understand what is happening.

Based on your posts I have read here, you are a worthy contributor, but you will tire of the garbage.
You know, a "may" or "imo" really doesn't bother me. In the end we had agreed that there isn't much to see in this video so I'm done with it.
I may only have registered recently but I'm a long-time lurker so I'm not fully naive on how it works here.
My stance on this is that nothing good can come out of segregation into homogeneous groups of like-minded people in the long run. Having a reasonable debate even between very different opinions and approaches to reasoning is something that should be cherished not avoided. And didn't the great Albert Camus write something along the lines of: "One must imagine Sisyphus happy." ? ;)
 
Re:

Nicko. said:
Ok, listen up all non-engineer-types:
before you think/say/decide "motor" when you see a wheel spin up in a CX race, you need to decide whether this 'motor' sits in the hub or the crank.
I'm leaving the rim-based wheels out out of this one (for obvious, physical reasons).

Crank motor:
high power (>200W) AND high wheel torque/traction force is possible, depending on gearing
rear wheel can spin/slip even when loaded
cranks MUST rotate in synchronicity with the rear wheel

Hub motor:
with the hub diameter limited to ~40mm, power is limited (<50W?) by the size constraints and the necessity of a gear box, axle and electrical stuff.
But the wheel torque/traction force is VERY limited since the peak RPM of the motor must be geared for peak wheel speed (50kph?).
That means that during acceleration after the turn at 15kph there might, maybe, be 20W available, or ~0.5 kgf of traction force.
Rear wheel CAN be driven without cranks moving
Rear wheel will NEVER spin/slip when loaded, only when lifted off the ground

If you want to call "MOTOR!", decide which motor type and check with the properties above before you go public.

Carry on.
I think this is key, doesn't really make sense if these incidents are under load.
 

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