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Motor doping thread

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Jul 5, 2009
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Re:

Tienus said:
Thanks John.
I have to admit that your explanation is allready above my league.

These are similar wheels for sale:
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Hot-sale-72mm-1200W-BLDC-hub_60526214600.html
https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/MP-3000W-hub-motor-with-24_60475092395.html

Its slightly bigger than what will fit in a freehub. The specs are there but all I can make from it that with 88% efficiency it will not generate that much heat with 100w.

Those are awesome, but very naive in the simplicity of their design. But they will and do work. The hilarious part is the power rating. 3 kW is 750 Watts per wheel... Okay, let's assume they've got physics beat and can put 750 Watts into 250 mL of motor. Look at those wee wires! FOOOM!! The thing would go up in flames.

John Swanson
 
Jul 22, 2015
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Re: Re:

Eyeballs Out said:
sniper said:
yaco said:
sniper said:
yaco said:
Stop changing the subject
:confused: I think we're still talking about Hayman and motors.
- You inferred Hayman's performance was because he used a motor - Yeah have a motor and then wait to use in the last 200 metres - What dummy would follow this script.
If he used it *before* the sprint, it would still give him an advantage *during* the sprint. Every dummy can understand that. But how do you know what script he would have followed anyway?
And "last 200 meters"? Lol. This is 2017. Not 1998.
But as you seem to know how long his battery lasts, do expand. :rolleyes:

My guess is motors probably work best in one day races, especially long and difficult one day races - So a PR would be a prime contender - But if you used a motor it would be used outside the velodrome, and probably more effective on asphalt as opposed to cobbles - It's not going to be used in a 200 metre sprint.
That's fair enough although at this point I'm not sure if we should exclude any scenario.
That said, I agree intuitively with your assessment that a motor would be less useful in a full out sprint.
Cance 2010 gave us a good idea of when and where motors will be most effective.
It was pretty likely Hayman was going to beat Boonen in the sprint having seen the previous 15 minutes of that race. Boonen had already effectively done his sprint outside the velodrome when turning himself inside out just to get Hayman's wheel after one of his attacks in the finale.

Probably the most ridiculous performance I've seen given the circumstances (which in cycling is saying something). Remember this was virtually Hayman's first race for months after injury (apart from a couple of days in low grade spanish races). Even the best riders / dopers of all time generally needed racing and racing form to be able to win the best races

His SRM power numbers were published on Training Peaks.

They look legit (high, no motor) at a glance but I can't zoom in as I don't have a premium subscription.

Normalized power was 347 W which is extremely high. Got to wonder how much stress that, plus any sort of rear hub motor power, would cause on the rear wheel.
 
His SRM power numbers were published on Training Peaks.

They look legit (high, no motor) at a glance but I can't zoom in as I don't have a premium subscription.

Normalized power was 347 W which is extremely high. Got to wonder how much stress that, plus any sort of rear hub motor power, would cause on the rear wheel.

First thing I notice is the speed is no longer recorded after about 4:30. Looking at his bike pictures his speed sensor is in his reer wheel. OCE is one of the teams that is changing the rear wheels instead of bikes a lot and at suspiscous times during races.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re:

Tienus said:
His SRM power numbers were published on Training Peaks.

They look legit (high, no motor) at a glance but I can't zoom in as I don't have a premium subscription.

Normalized power was 347 W which is extremely high. Got to wonder how much stress that, plus any sort of rear hub motor power, would cause on the rear wheel.

First thing I notice is the speed is no longer recorded after about 4:30. Looking at his bike pictures his speed sensor is in his reer wheel. OCE is one of the teams that is changing the rear wheels instead of bikes a lot and at suspiscous times during races.
Nice.
If you look close you see speed dropping to zero, then briefly peaking again for like a few minutes and then flattening out again at zero until the end.
Maybe a double wheel change?
 
It appears he switched off his V8 twin turbo for the sprint as 1300W is a joke.

Looking at the power file, Hayman had the perfect race, the group worked together perfectly. Always well below his threshold, in the absolute finale Boonen buried himself and so 1294W was enough to beat him.

Remember that Marcel Sieberg got 7th from that group.
 
Nice.
If you look close you see speed dropping to zero, then briefly peaking again for like a few minutes and then flattening out again at zero until the end.
Maybe a double wheel change?


His finish bike has a magnet in the rear wheel.
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/article/paris-roubaix-matthew-haymans-scott-foil-46798/

After 177km his speed starts missing. Its also the time where he rides away while pulling at the front of the lead group and then rides solo for for allmost 8km.

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/power-analysis-mathew-hayman-s-victory-at-paris-roubaix
Unfortunately, at 177km into the race Hayman's speed sensor stopped functioning (likely due to the harsh nature of the course). This is why there is no speed or distance for the final hours.
 
Re:

Mr.38% said:
It appears he switched off his V8 twin turbo for the sprint as 1300W is a joke.

Looking at the power file, Hayman had the perfect race, the group worked together perfectly. Always well below his threshold, in the absolute finale Boonen buried himself and so 1294W was enough to beat him.

Remember that Marcel Sieberg got 7th from that group.

That sounds like a hub motor activated by heart rate to me.
 
Re: Re:

Tienus said:
Mr.38% said:
It appears he switched off his V8 twin turbo for the sprint as 1300W is a joke.

Looking at the power file, Hayman had the perfect race, the group worked together perfectly. Always well below his threshold, in the absolute finale Boonen buried himself and so 1294W was enough to beat him.

Remember that Marcel Sieberg got 7th from that group.

That sounds like a hub motor activated by heart rate to me.
Did you also hear the protocol, BT or ANT+?

Or did Sieberg and Hayman share a wheel?
 
sniper said:
If you look close you see speed dropping to zero, then briefly peaking again for like a few minutes and then flattening out again at zero until the end.
Maybe a double wheel change?
Why double? That makes no sense. I guess what you mean is a triple wheel change..
Or the speed sensor was fading, for example with a loose contact somewhere. Wouldn't be terribly surprising given the circumstances, would it?


Tienus said:
That sounds like a hub motor activated by heart rate to me.
Do you see this in the recorded power and heartbeat data or where is it coming from? And why specifically a hub motor?


Mr.38% said:
Remember that Marcel Sieberg got 7th from that group.
Or did Sieberg and Hayman share a wheel?
I guess you mean Imanol Erviti? He was the other guy from the early break-away that finished top 10, losing about 1 minute and finishing 9th. Sieberg only joined them later.
(Wouldn't change your argument as I understand it, just the names involved.)
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

Mr.38% said:
Tienus said:
Did you also hear the protocol, BT or ANT+?

Yes I know about those protocols. Did you read my post where I quote the OGE team? According to them it was the speed sensor.

Or did Sieberg and Hayman share a wheel?

I did not know that Hayman was the only cheater in that team.
You don't even know that Sieberg is not on his team? Please...
Tienus doesn't know Sieberg is on a different team.
Excellent observation, Mr38%.
Very relevant also to the wider discussion.

Tienus, how could you.
I'm afraid we now have to question everything you've previously argued for!
 
Do you see this in the recorded power and heartbeat data or where is it coming from? And why specifically a hub motor?

I responded to what 38% posted.

It appears he switched off his V8 twin turbo for the sprint as 1300W is a joke.
His SRM powermeter would have recorded the watts from a BB motor. With a hub motor it could have been more power but unrecorded. To be correct I should have said: not a motor driving the crank spindle.

Looking at the power file, Hayman had the perfect race, the group worked together perfectly. Always well below his threshold
We have been told there is a system activated by HR. If Hayman stayed well below his threshold that could also have been the result of the motor aiding when his HR was getting higher. How well did the group work together? As posted before Hayman was riding solo for allmost 8km.
https://youtu.be/xaJpJmPzYnM?t=4h56s
from 4:56
 
You don't even know that Sieberg is not on his team? Please...

I post things and get things wrong, no need to patronize me for that.
I responded quick without looking it up as I dont think its very relevant. I have stated before that I think that most pro tour teams are cheating with a motor. Anyway reading Tom's post it seems you got it wrong yourself. You also dont reply to the fact that you did not read my previous post properly.
 
Re:

sniper said:
Varjas now more explicitly questioning UCI's refusal to test Team Sky bikes at the TdF, despite being warned and despite the French police insisting:
http://www.ciclo21.com/bruyneel-lemond-era-un-gilipollas/
Let's put Varjas on hold for now. This guy had numerous opportunities to talk about it and so far it has been nothing but a huge publicity stunt for his business (and probably for his ego, too). Unless (or until) he says something that is verifiable I don't consider him a serious source anymore whatsoever.

Oh, and if Google translate got it right for me then he announced in this article that he will publish a book about it soon. But he doesn't want to reveal what he's gonna reveal in this book.. Where can I place my pre-order? :lol:
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Tienus said:
His SRM powermeter would have recorded the watts from a BB motor. With a hub motor it could have been more power but unrecorded. To be correct I should have said: not a motor driving the crank spindle.
@mr38%, you didn't even know this? please...

We have been told there is a system activated by HR. If Hayman stayed well below his threshold that could also have been the result of the motor aiding when his HR was getting higher. How well did the group work together? As posted before Hayman was riding solo for allmost 8km.
https://youtu.be/xaJpJmPzYnM?t=4h56s
from 4:56
I love this.
Froome Ventoux 2013 says hi.

And have to say, it's a pretty smart system.
 
Re: Re:

Tom the Engine said:
sniper said:
Varjas now more explicitly questioning UCI's refusal to test Team Sky bikes at the TdF, despite being warned and despite the French police insisting:
http://www.ciclo21.com/bruyneel-lemond-era-un-gilipollas/
Let's put Varjas on hold for now. This guy had numerous opportunities to talk about it and so far it has been nothing but a huge publicity stunt for his business (and probably for his ego, too). Unless (or until) he says something that is verifiable I don't consider him a serious source anymore whatsoever.

Oh, and if Google translate got it right for me then he announced in this article that he will publish a book about it soon. But he doesn't want to reveal what he's gonna reveal in this book.. Where can I place my pre-order? :lol:

It seems he also told the UCI to hire him to find the motors...
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Re: Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
Semper Fidelis said:
Tienus said:
The hub motor can have the battery anywhere in the frame. All you need are ring contacts at the dropout. It can also be geared, especially if you remove one set of bearings and use the volume provided by the freewheel shell. Lots of options, actually. So no, you wouldn't have a tiny amount of torque. A tiny amount of torque would be nearly as useless at riding speed as it would at stall. Power = T x w. If T is low, w has to be high but at riding speed it isn't. So it has to be geared to increase torque.


What are your thoughts on this?

https://youtu.be/g6r3ms5b2uI?t=11m25s
From around 11:25.
"Double the torque with a direct drive hub motor over a geared one" (Thats if I understand it correctly)
Seems that motor would be something that would work in a hub?

When people say hub, they always think of the shell between the flanges. But there's a relatively big volume occupied by the freehub mechanism... I'd be shocked if a three person team couldn't have a functioning prototype in 6 months. This is something a university student team could do as a school project.

John Swanson
My friends daughter is a Mechanical Eng. Student. Senior project maybe? I'm going to point her in this direction, maybe she will want to do it with the team they are assigned.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
Tom the Engine said:
sniper said:
Varjas now more explicitly questioning UCI's refusal to test Team Sky bikes at the TdF, despite being warned and despite the French police insisting:
http://www.ciclo21.com/bruyneel-lemond-era-un-gilipollas/
Let's put Varjas on hold for now. This guy had numerous opportunities to talk about it and so far it has been nothing but a huge publicity stunt for his business (and probably for his ego, too). Unless (or until) he says something that is verifiable I don't consider him a serious source anymore whatsoever.

Oh, and if Google translate got it right for me then he announced in this article that he will publish a book about it soon. But he doesn't want to reveal what he's gonna reveal in this book.. Where can I place my pre-order? :lol:

It seems he also told the UCI to hire him to find the motors...
People get distracted with Varjas.

If that clown was able to do what he has shown ,,,,, what do you think others could do? The silent ones are the groups that have the best and are saying nothing.

Otherwise you would not have people like dr. F trying to figure out the scheme.
 
Re:

Tienus said:
Do you see this in the recorded power and heartbeat data or where is it coming from? And why specifically a hub motor?

I responded to what 38% posted.

It appears he switched off his V8 twin turbo for the sprint as 1300W is a joke.
His SRM powermeter would have recorded the watts from a BB motor. With a hub motor it could have been more power but unrecorded. To be correct I should have said: not a motor driving the crank spindle.

Looking at the power file, Hayman had the perfect race, the group worked together perfectly. Always well below his threshold
We have been told there is a system activated by HR. If Hayman stayed well below his threshold that could also have been the result of the motor aiding when his HR was getting higher. How well did the group work together? As posted before Hayman was riding solo for allmost 8km.
https://youtu.be/xaJpJmPzYnM?t=4h56s
from 4:56

Did you actually watch the entire race (honest question)? The group worked very well together especially when the Sky's and QS's joined up as that was THE opportunity to distance both Sagan and Cancellara who were caught behind the break.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

Semper Fidelis said:
King Boonen said:
Tom the Engine said:
sniper said:
Varjas now more explicitly questioning UCI's refusal to test Team Sky bikes at the TdF, despite being warned and despite the French police insisting:
http://www.ciclo21.com/bruyneel-lemond-era-un-gilipollas/
Let's put Varjas on hold for now. This guy had numerous opportunities to talk about it and so far it has been nothing but a huge publicity stunt for his business (and probably for his ego, too). Unless (or until) he says something that is verifiable I don't consider him a serious source anymore whatsoever.

Oh, and if Google translate got it right for me then he announced in this article that he will publish a book about it soon. But he doesn't want to reveal what he's gonna reveal in this book.. Where can I place my pre-order? :lol:

It seems he also told the UCI to hire him to find the motors...
People get distracted with Varjas.

If that clown was able to do what he has shown ,,,,, what do you think others could do? The silent ones are the groups that have the best and are saying nothing.

Otherwise you would not have people like dr. F trying to figure out the scheme.
This indeed.
Varjas is a bit of a red herring.
And even so it's worth hearing him out and weighing his claims/statements against other pieces of evidence.
He seems willing to talk where all others are omerta.
That doesn't mean taking all he says as gospel. Obviously.
But neither is there any apriori reason to just discard and ignore anything he says.
 
Re: Re:

Semper Fidelis said:
King Boonen said:
Tom the Engine said:
sniper said:
Varjas now more explicitly questioning UCI's refusal to test Team Sky bikes at the TdF, despite being warned and despite the French police insisting:
http://www.ciclo21.com/bruyneel-lemond-era-un-gilipollas/
Let's put Varjas on hold for now. This guy had numerous opportunities to talk about it and so far it has been nothing but a huge publicity stunt for his business (and probably for his ego, too). Unless (or until) he says something that is verifiable I don't consider him a serious source anymore whatsoever.

Oh, and if Google translate got it right for me then he announced in this article that he will publish a book about it soon. But he doesn't want to reveal what he's gonna reveal in this book.. Where can I place my pre-order? :lol:

It seems he also told the UCI to hire him to find the motors...
People get distracted with Varjas.

If that clown was able to do what he has shown ,,,,, what do you think others could do? The silent ones are the groups that have the best and are saying nothing.

Otherwise you would not have people like dr. F trying to figure out the scheme.

I don't think it's ever been shown that Varjas invented anything. Vivax (previously Gruber assist) was developed by Karl Schweitzer. Varjas has made claims but has never offered any proof he invented the technology as far as I'm aware. I'm pretty sure Varjas only turned up in 2010, long after Vivax was formed.

Meanwhile Vivax is a real company who should be capable of developing a hub motor yet they haven't as far as we know. Vivax have been around since 2005 and have been selling their motors fitted into bikes since 208. They haven't been kept secret, they were known about long before Femke got caught.

The only reason we are even discussing hub motors is because or some terrible, grainy video for Varjas, seen in the 60 minutes "jokeumentary" where the hub looked several orders of magnitude bigger than a normal hub.

We knew about the BB motor before one was found, we knew about dope before it was found, but we currently know nothing about hub motors and have never seen even a working prototype that could be hidden in a standard hub/freewheel.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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we knew about dope before it was found
sometimes yes, sometimes no.
We didn't know about AICAR until it was found in dustbins in the 2009 tdf, for instance.

we currently know nothing about hub motors
that's a bit of an exaggeration.

have never seen even a working prototype
Personally I think Varjas showed one (why would you think the vid was fake?). If they exist, they're pricey, and I strongly doubt Varjas makes them himself. So no real surprise he didn't have a working model in his store.
 

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