Motor doping thread

[Tienus]

The original Bruyneel interview is in Dutch bhind a paywall.
http://www.humo.be/humo-archief/374345/won-lance-armstrong-dankzij-een-motortje-in-zijn-fiets-johan-bruyneel-en-istvan-varjas-uitvinder-van-het-motortje-reageren

some interesting bits quick:
Varjas did not know who bought the 10 year rights, he dealt with a middleman
The journalist thinks he knows Varjas sold it to a Russian
The Journalist heard rumours that Varjas tried to sell to riders in Monaco (apparently Varjas lives in Monaco)
Varjas: You should not only focus on road race
The electromagnetic wheel is the newest invention from Varjas and he sells trhem in Monaco

Last question:

HUMO Je hebt de reputatie enkel op publiciteit uit te zijn, en hier en daar word je zelfs een oplichter genoemd.
Varjas «Ach, laat ze maar zeggen. Ik doe niks verkeerd, al kan ik niet instaan voor wat anderen met mijn uitvinding doen. Ik weet wel dat mechanische doping een gevaar is voor de wielersport. De uitzending van ‘60 Minutes’ was nog maar het begin. Er staat ons nog veel meer te wachten

Humo: You have the reputation solely on publicity from it, and here and there you will be even called a crook.
Varjas "Ah, let them say. I'm not doing anything wrong, although I can not vouch for what others do with my invention. I do know that mechanical doping is a danger to the sport of cycling. The broadcast of 60 Minutes was just the beginning. There is still waiting for more

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Re: Re:

Varjas now more explicitly questioning UCI's refusal to test Team Sky bikes at the TdF, despite being warned and despite the French police insisting:
http://www.ciclo21.com/bruyneel-lemond-era-un-gilipollas/

Let's put Varjas on hold for now. This guy had numerous opportunities to talk about it and so far it has been nothing but a huge publicity stunt for his business (and probably for his ego, too). Unless (or until) he says something that is verifiable I don't consider him a serious source anymore whatsoever.

Oh, and if Google translate got it right for me then he announced in this article that he will publish a book about it soon. But he doesn't want to reveal what he's gonna reveal in this book.. Where can I place my pre-order? :lol:

It seems he also told the UCI to hire him to find the motors...

People get distracted with Varjas.

If that clown was able to do what he has shown ,,,,, what do you think others could do? The silent ones are the groups that have the best and are saying nothing.

Otherwise you would not have people like dr. F trying to figure out the scheme.

I don't think it's ever been shown that Varjas invented anything. Vivax (previously Gruber assist) was developed by Karl Schweitzer. Varjas has made claims but has never offered any proof he invented the technology as far as I'm aware. I'm pretty sure Varjas only turned up in 2010, long after Vivax was formed.

Meanwhile Vivax is a real company who should be capable of developing a hub motor yet they haven't as far as we know. Vivax have been around since 2005 and have been selling their motors fitted into bikes since 208. They haven't been kept secret, they were known about long before Femke got caught.

The only reason we are even discussing hub motors is because or some terrible, grainy video for Varjas, seen in the 60 minutes "jokeumentary" where the hub looked several orders of magnitude bigger than a normal hub.

We knew about the BB motor before one was found, we knew about dope before it was found, but we currently know nothing about hub motors and have never seen even a working prototype that could be hidden in a standard hub/freewheel.

It was not a documentary it was a investigative piece.

I don't know why you are taking this so personal and being defensive. I only made the point which you seem to also make a bit - that varjas is somewhat of a clown that claims to have developed and or invented something. My point is that if he is to be taken as just a clown then there are some serious folks out there that have way better stuff.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

The hub motor can have the battery anywhere in the frame. All you need are ring contacts at the dropout. It can also be geared, especially if you remove one set of bearings and use the volume provided by the freewheel shell. Lots of options, actually. So no, you wouldn't have a tiny amount of torque. A tiny amount of torque would be nearly as useless at riding speed as it would at stall. Power = T x w. If T is low, w has to be high but at riding speed it isn't. So it has to be geared to increase torque.

What are your thoughts on this?

https://youtu.be/g6r3ms5b2uI?t=11m25s
From around 11:25.
"Double the torque with a direct drive hub motor over a geared one" (Thats if I understand it correctly)

Seems that motor would be something that would work in a hub?

When people say hub, they always think of the shell between the flanges. But there's a relatively big volume occupied by the freehub mechanism... I'd be shocked if a three person team couldn't have a functioning prototype in 6 months. This is something a university student team could do as a school project.

John Swanson

My friends daughter is a Mechanical Eng. Student. Senior project maybe? I'm going to point her in this direction, maybe she will want to do it with the team they are assigned.

That would be brilliant. And who knows, maybe she could spin it off into a business once she graduates. If that happens let me know and I can put you in touch with a cycling specific VC.

John Swanson

 

[Tienus]

Did you actually watch the entire race (honest question)? The group worked very well together especially when the Sky's and QS's joined up as that was THE opportunity to distance both Sagan and Cancellara who were caught behind the break.

No I didnt. I only watched the 8 minutes he was riding with his nose in the wind.
Lets have a look:
https://youtu.be/xaJpJmPzYnM?t=4h56s
4:00:58 he has got 80.1 km to go according to gps race info
4:09:58 he has 72.6 to go

I conservatively used a distance of 7km which might still be wrong with race GPS accuracy. But maybe someone can work out actual distance. Anyway 7km gives an average of 52,5 kmh and it sure is not coble free.
I wonder how Hayman stayed well below his threshold.
The fact that Haymans speed is missing from that point is suspiscious and maybe done on purpose.

Edit: 9 minutes so i messed it up
Anyway riding in the wind for 9 minutes does not sound like working well together.
7km in 9 minutes gives 47kmh which is still impressive.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

we knew about dope before it was found

sometimes yes, sometimes no.
We didn't know about AICAR until it was found in dustbins in the 2009 tdf, for instance.

we currently know nothing about hub motors

that's a bit of an exaggeration.

have never seen even a working prototype

Personally I think Varjas showed one (why would you think the vid was fake?). If they exist, they're pricey, and I strongly doubt Varjas makes them himself. So no real surprise he didn't have a working model in his store.

AICAR has been around since the 80s, we have known about and been using it long before it worked its way into doping regimes.

How is it an exaggeration. Show me even a simple prototype of a hub motor that can fit inside a normal road hub.


I didn't say he faked the video, don't make things up. I clearly stated the quality was terrible so hardly anything could be seen but from what could be seen the hub was massive compared to a normal road hub.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

AICAR has been around since the 80s, we have known about and been using it long before it worked its way into doping regimes.

Wikipedia tells me the first hub motor traces back to the late 19th century.

How is it an exaggeration.

"know nothing" is an exaggeration.
Wikipedia is your friend. As is Google, or even this Clinic thread.
We know plenty and we (well, not me, but people like Scienceiscool) can make fairly educated guesses about what is roughly possible.

Show me even a simple prototype of a hub motor that can fit inside a normal road hub.

See the Stade 2 doc. Roglic hub was glowing. What more do you want? Nobody's gonna show us. Omerta 101.
Show me how AICAR is injected.

I didn't say he faked the video, don't make things up.

Conceded.

I clearly stated the quality was terrible so hardly anything could be seen but from what could be seen the hub was massive compared to a normal road hub.

And that's where I agree with Semper Fidelis: it would be absolutely ridiculous to think Varjas = state of the art.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

AICAR has been around since the 80s, we have known about and been using it long before it worked its way into doping regimes.

Wikipedia tells me the first hub motor traces back to the late 19th century.

How is it an exaggeration.

"know nothing" is an exaggeration.
Wikipedia is your friend. As is Google, or even this Clinic thread.
We know plenty and we (well, not me, but people like Scienceiscool) can make fairly educated guesses about what is roughly possible.

Show me even a simple prototype of a hub motor that can fit inside a normal road hub.

See the Stade 2 doc. Roglic hub was glowing. What more do you want? Nobody's gonna show us. Omerta 101.
Show me how AICAR is injected.

I didn't say he faked the video, don't make things up.

Conceded.

I clearly stated the quality was terrible so hardly anything could be seen but from what could be seen the hub was massive compared to a normal road hub.

And that's where I agree with Semper Fidelis: it would be absolutely ridiculous to think Varjas = state of the art.

I'm not sure what you are talking about when you ask to be shown how AICAR is injected. Care to explain?


The Stade 2 nonsense has been throughly debunked in this thread. Again, show me even a prototype of a hub motor in a normal road hub. I've read this thread and there is zero evidence that a hub motor that can be concealed in a road hub exists. So again, just one prototype.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

we knew about dope before it was found

sometimes yes, sometimes no.
We didn't know about AICAR until it was found in dustbins in the 2009 tdf, for instance.

we currently know nothing about hub motors

that's a bit of an exaggeration.

have never seen even a working prototype

Personally I think Varjas showed one (why would you think the vid was fake?). If they exist, they're pricey, and I strongly doubt Varjas makes them himself. So no real surprise he didn't have a working model in his store.

AICAR has been around since the 80s, we have known about and been using it long before it worked its way into doping regimes.

How is it an exaggeration. Show me even a simple prototype of a hub motor that can fit inside a normal road hub.


I didn't say he faked the video, don't make things up. I clearly stated the quality was terrible so hardly anything could be seen but from what could be seen the hub was massive compared to a normal road hub.

So this is possible https://electric-boarding.com/2016/04/11/will-hub-motors-redefine-the-electric-skateboard-industry-or-is-it-just-another-fad/

But this is impossible.

Good to know.

John Swanson

 

[red_flanders]

Re: Re:

The Stade 2 nonsense has been throughly debunked in this thread. Again, show me even a prototype of a hub motor in a normal road hub. I've read this thread and there is zero evidence that a hub motor that can be concealed in a road hub exists. So again, just one prototype.

There are 2 things here.

The Stade 2 documentary has indeed been thoroughly debunked in this thread. The "evidence" in that video was garbage.

That doesn't mean there aren't hub motors.

 

[sniper]

Don't rewrite history.
The fact that you and two or three others think there was no motor doesn't mean it was debunnked.

The most plausible hypothesis is still by quite some distance that Primoz simply had a motor stuffed in his rear hub and that it was beautifully caught on camera.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

The Stade 2 nonsense has been throughly debunked in this thread. Again, show me even a prototype of a hub motor in a normal road hub. I've read this thread and there is zero evidence that a hub motor that can be concealed in a road hub exists. So again, just one prototype.

There are 2 things here.

The Stade 2 documentary has indeed been thoroughly debunked in this thread. The "evidence" in that video was garbage.

That doesn't mean there aren't hub motors.

Considering that something this size will give you 500 Watts (dubious it's that high but still) for under $200 delivered, I think it would be incredible that nobody has put a similar system, same form factor, only 60 Watts in roughly half the volume.

http://diyelectricskateboard.com/diy-electric-skateboard-kits-parts/torque-single-hub-motor/

Let's put it another way: there's tons of skateboarders building their own. Off the shelf parts. Here's one that's hidden and cost the guy $1200. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=68181&sid=0d175b62e361792a68f7a6090bd45a34

Hobbyist skateboarders doing it for low dough? Check
Hub motors in pro cycling? Impossible

John Swanson

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

we knew about dope before it was found

sometimes yes, sometimes no.
We didn't know about AICAR until it was found in dustbins in the 2009 tdf, for instance.

we currently know nothing about hub motors

that's a bit of an exaggeration.

have never seen even a working prototype

Personally I think Varjas showed one (why would you think the vid was fake?). If they exist, they're pricey, and I strongly doubt Varjas makes them himself. So no real surprise he didn't have a working model in his store.

AICAR has been around since the 80s, we have known about and been using it long before it worked its way into doping regimes.

How is it an exaggeration. Show me even a simple prototype of a hub motor that can fit inside a normal road hub.


I didn't say he faked the video, don't make things up. I clearly stated the quality was terrible so hardly anything could be seen but from what could be seen the hub was massive compared to a normal road hub.

So this is possible https://electric-boarding.com/2016/04/11/will-hub-motors-redefine-the-electric-skateboard-industry-or-is-it-just-another-fad/

But this is impossible.

Good to know.

John Swanson

I never said is was impossible, I said show me a working prototype. Unless you think you are the first person to come up with the idea?

The Stade 2 nonsense has been throughly debunked in this thread. Again, show me even a prototype of a hub motor in a normal road hub. I've read this thread and there is zero evidence that a hub motor that can be concealed in a road hub exists. So again, just one prototype.

There are 2 things here.

The Stade 2 documentary has indeed been thoroughly debunked in this thread. The "evidence" in that video was garbage.

That doesn't mean there aren't hub motors.

I never said there aren't red. I've merely pointed out that every form of doping in professional cycling, both medicinal and now mechanical, was known about before it was applied to doping in the pro tour. In general the clinic loves to cite precedent, people have cheated in the past so we know they will now and that's fine. But the same precedent applies to doping. Cycling doesn't invent doping products, it repurposed them. Even the Vivax motor existed before the first supposedly credible use of it. Cycling is not some massive money generating machine, the last few years its struggled to attract enough sponsors to fill the WT. Vivax wasn't invented by a cycling team and it wasn't hidden for ages, it was marketed to everyone because that's where the money is. Precedent says the same would happen with a hub motor.

Don't rewrite history.
The fact that you and two or three others think there was no motor doesn't mean it was debunnked.

The most plausible hypothesis is still by quite some distance that Primoz simply had a rear hub and that it was beautifully caught on camera.

That is absolute bollocks and just shows how desperate this line of thinking is. Stade 2 was a joke, Varjas is a joke and 60 minutes was a joke. There is evidence for bottom bracket motors but not for hub motors that fit in a road hub. Again, show us the prototype.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Why in the world would anyone show off a prototype? The only idiot talking is Varjas and he's not the brains behind motor doping... Unlike EPO, just about anybody could make a hub motor in their garage/shop.

John Swanson

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

Why in the world would anyone show off a prototype? The only idiot talking is Varjas and he's not the brains behind motor doping... Unlike EPO, just about anybody could make a hub motor in their garage/shop.

John Swanson

Great, if literally anyone could do it and you've managed to find skateboarders thinking about it and doing it I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding one fitted to a bike.

 

[red_flanders]

Re:

Don't rewrite history.
The fact that you and two or three others think there was no motor doesn't mean it was debunnked.

The most plausible hypothesis is still by quite some distance that Primoz simply had a motor stuffed in his rear hub and that it was beautifully caught on camera.

You mistake the critique of the evidence in the Stade 2 documentary for "think[ing] there was no motor".

There may well have been. No way to know from the documentary evidence. It was crap.

I never said there aren't red. I've merely pointed out that every form of doping in professional cycling, both medicinal and now mechanical, was known about before it was applied to doping in the pro tour.

Understood.

 

[sniper]

No way to know

that's fair enough, as long as you're speaking for yourself.

it was crap

agree to disagree.

 

[Tienus]

Re: Re:

Why in the world would anyone show off a prototype? The only idiot talking is Varjas and he's not the brains behind motor doping... Unlike EPO, just about anybody could make a hub motor in their garage/shop.

John Swanson

Great, if literally anyone could do it and you've managed to find skateboarders thinking about it and doing it I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding one fitted to a bike.

These tiny motors have been build in other things with small wheels.

http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-Your-Own-Miniature-Electric-Hub-Motor/
Comparatively few in-wheel motors have internal gearing - these are most often found on bicycles, since they have a large diameter, and hence loads of space, to work with.

This is stealty enough for most people and a lot more powerfull.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBpwODvQXHU

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

Why in the world would anyone show off a prototype? The only idiot talking is Varjas and he's not the brains behind motor doping... Unlike EPO, just about anybody could make a hub motor in their garage/shop.

John Swanson

Great, if literally anyone could do it and you've managed to find skateboarders thinking about it and doing it I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding one fitted to a bike.

You want me, John Swanson, to go out in the world and slay dragons to procure you, King Boonen, a prototype... You're ambitious, I give you that.

John Swanson

 

[MarkvW]

Re: Re:

Why in the world would anyone show off a prototype? The only idiot talking is Varjas and he's not the brains behind motor doping... Unlike EPO, just about anybody could make a hub motor in their garage/shop.

John Swanson

Great, if literally anyone could do it and you've managed to find skateboarders thinking about it and doing it I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding one fitted to a bike.

You want me, John Swanson, to go out in the world and slay dragons to procure you, King Boonen, a prototype... You're ambitious, I give you that.

John Swanson

Bring me a rim motor, Sir Knight.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

Why in the world would anyone show off a prototype? The only idiot talking is Varjas and he's not the brains behind motor doping... Unlike EPO, just about anybody could make a hub motor in their garage/shop.

John Swanson

Great, if literally anyone could do it and you've managed to find skateboarders thinking about it and doing it I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding one fitted to a bike.

You want me, John Swanson, to go out in the world and slay dragons to procure you, King Boonen, a prototype... You're ambitious, I give you that.

John Swanson

Bring me a rim motor, Sir Knight.

My liege. They're FUKKing everywhere!

John Swanson

 

[Random Direction]

I know that you are on a sacred quest to prove innocence, however if I can find around 50 rim motors on alibaba in a quick google search https://www.alibaba.com/showroom/rim-motor.html , is is inconceivable that Team Sky, Astana and the USPS haven't put coin into developing super small and light motors, probably in partnership with groups like F1 teams, mi6, and the Russian Space Agency.

Follow the money and the mechanics. If a Belgian teenager can do it, surely Sir David and Vino can organize clandestine technology development groups. Come on, were Tinkoff's ethics so strong so he wouldn't try to find a faster way up a hill for Contador and Sagan? You kidding me?

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Why in the world would anyone show off a prototype? The only idiot talking is Varjas and he's not the brains behind motor doping... Unlike EPO, just about anybody could make a hub motor in their garage/shop.

John Swanson

Great, if literally anyone could do it and you've managed to find skateboarders thinking about it and doing it I'm sure you'll have no trouble finding one fitted to a bike.

You want me, John Swanson, to go out in the world and slay dragons to procure you, King Boonen, a prototype... You're ambitious, I give you that.

John Swanson

No John, Google works fine, I'm guessing that's how you found the skateboard motor. Again, I'm not saying they don't or can't exist. I'm saying if they are as easy as you say to implement then you should easily be able to find someone who has done it. I've tried and I can't find anything. On any reasonable timeline EPO was known about well before it entered the peloton, AICAR was known about long before it entered the peloton, even GW1516 or whatever it was was in phase 3 clinical trials (maybe 2? They keep changing the numbers) before it was in the peloton. Similarly the Vivax motor was known about in 2005, long before the real first suggestion it was used in a race. You've claimed that high school or college students could easily make a hub motor hidden in a standard road hub but can't find one example of someone trying it?

 

[Mr.38%]

Re: Re:

Do you see this in the recorded power and heartbeat data or where is it coming from? And why specifically a hub motor?

I responded to what 38% posted.

It appears he switched off his V8 twin turbo for the sprint as 1300W is a joke.
His SRM powermeter would have recorded the watts from a BB motor. With a hub motor it could have been more power but unrecorded. To be correct I should have said: not a motor driving the crank spindle.

Looking at the power file, Hayman had the perfect race, the group worked together perfectly. Always well below his threshold
We have been told there is a system activated by HR. If Hayman stayed well below his threshold that could also have been the result of the motor aiding when his HR was getting higher. How well did the group work together? As posted before Hayman was riding solo for allmost 8km.
https://youtu.be/xaJpJmPzYnM?t=4h56s
from 4:56

Did you actually watch the entire race (honest question)? The group worked very well together especially when the Sky's and QS's joined up as that was THE opportunity to distance both Sagan and Cancellara who were caught behind the break.

This. Watching Racing is not looking at Youtube or GIFs. P-R has always had random guys winning because racing is just like that. The reason why riders go into a group is, there is a small chance they will last until the finish. It happens. Lesser known riders win races. In this particular edition of P-R everything came together and only a few toppers caught the early escape. Yes, this happpens. Marcel Sieberg was in that group, he is a great rider like every ProTour rider is. He knows how to read races, he leads out André Greipel, he loves the cobbles (like you can love the cobbles). He almost made it to the finish with the lead group because it was a special edition of P-R where this was possible. Reasons have been mentioned ad nauseam. It was not nessecary to add anything to a bike, it took experience, luck and all the power an experienced Professional rider is able to produce. In the end the favorite had to bury himself to keep the group together and an underdog snatched the greatest win of his career with a funny 1294W sprint. Yes, this stuff happens because it's bike racing. There was bike racing before motorized assistance and it looked exactly like this. Hayman may have used a motor but he may also be descendent of an advanced alien race and the star constallations that day moved his extraterrestrial cells in a weird order and pushed him over the line, just before Tommekke. Both being equally likely.

 

[Tienus]

Thanks for the lesson in race tactics!

Unfortunately you again did not adres my previous post which was a response to GJB's post which you quoted. What do you think of Hayman riding alone for 9 minutes over coble sectors with an average speed of about 50kmh? Does it match his powerfile? You can judge the wind by the flags. I'd say its mostly crosswind and slightly from behind.

P-R has always had random guys winning because racing is just like that.

Who was the last one before Hayman according to you?

 

[simoni]

Re:

Thanks for the lesson in race tactics!

Unfortunately you again did not adres my previous post which was a response to GJB's post which you quoted. What do you think of Hayman riding alone for 9 minutes over coble sectors with an average speed of about 50kmh? Does it match his powerfile? You can judge the wind by the flags. I'd say its mostly crosswind and slightly from behind.

P-R has always had random guys winning because racing is just like that.

Who was the last one before Hayman according to you?

Not sure it is as random as suggested but it certainly can happen, as it can in near enough any one-day race (Jacky Durand anyone?!)

Over the last 20 years Guesdon, Knaven, Backstedt, Van Summeren and Hayman all look a little bit "soft" compared to the galacticos.