Motor doping thread

[Tom the Engine]

In my view it was one of the best bits of investigative sports journalism of recent years.

I do get your point. Your definition of good journalism is something along the lines of "trying to reveal the cheaters" or "going after corruption and omertà". That's fine.

But I'm not talking incentives but execution. To be honest I'm not entirely sure whether you're not willing or not capable to engage in this discussion. Judging from those comments about Liggett and the same old screenshots again I'd guess the latter but I don't really care.

 

[Tom the Engine]

I dont know anything about thermal cameras but according to Stade 2 an Corriere della Sera they had expert engineers looking at it.

Yes we can even see it in the documentary how they show their footage to an expert. We're going in circles now. My reply on it is in this post, points 5) and 6).

 

[sniper]

^that's certainly fair enough.

In my view, the way Primoz and LJ tried to debunk the accusations merely added to the suspicions.

 

[Tienus]

Re:

I dont know anything about thermal cameras but according to Stade 2 an Corriere della Sera they had expert engineers looking at it.

Yes we can even see it in the documentary how they show their footage to an expert. We're going in circles now. My reply on it is in this post, points 5) and 6).

I have read your posts. You have made your judgement on the expert shown in the video. I dont know if that judgement is correct. Stade 2 is talking about experts in plural. You might be right that it was a bad yob but they could also have used experts from the start of the investigation. For me there is no way of telling from what has been aired.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

I have always argued the possibility of motor fraud. I have also warned about non-informed opinions about why it can't be done.

In this case I put my foot down regarding a hub motor in a normal road hub. I am open for ideas. I will be convinced by sound and reasonable engineering.

We haven't really reached the technological point where we can jam a motor and battery into a standard sized hub that looks like every other hub out there. The rear wheel motors that are available have huge batteries and are usually single speed wheels. It's a fun conspiracy theory, though.

The hub was never, ever the place to put a hidden motor. The argument that a hub motor wouldn't work is naive at best...

Italian newspaper Gazzetta dello Sport has described a motor hidden in the seat tube and bottom bracket as ‘old doping’ suggesting that special wheels, able to produce 20-60 watts via electromagnetics and costing 200,000 Euro, are the most sophisticated form of mechanical doping currently in use in cycling

This seems it could explain Ryder's case.

Wait, wasn't this concept suggested already? In the very Clinic?
Oh yeah, a year-and-a-half ago, here:

That's an easy one, yes there is.
'All' electric rotational motors have a 'stator' and a 'rotor'.

I give you 'Frame' and 'Wheel'.
Put magnets in the rim and a series of coils in the wheel cutout of the frame, fire away

Or swap places, have the coils, batteries and electronics in the wheel. Very inconspicuous...

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1563149#p1563149

Summary: If you don't master the engineering and the ingenuity required for this level of cheating, don't argue what can and can't be done.

Everyone! Nicko has put his foot down. I repeat. Put his foot down! We haven't convinced him, so it can't be done...

John Swanson

 

[Irondan]

C'mon John, there's no need to be antagonistic.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

C'mon John, there's no need to be antagonistic.

Of course there is. When the sum total of a response to a well researched opinion is "I'm putting my foot down", then that deserves some serious ridicule. BTW, I don't think Hayman had a motor. I do think motors are seriously plausible. Not trivial. Give me a good mech eng and a good electrical eng and we'll have a silent, invisible prototype in 18 months. First alpha in three. Am I really the first to think of this...?

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

FWIW,
I found this comment below an otherwise trivial cyclingtips article on motors:

John Pombrio
Technology can get around a few of the telltales. the battery could be replaced by a super-capacitor that would be lighter and could easily be recharged while riding. You don't need 90 minutes in a peleton, you need at most 5 minutes to catch up to the breakaway or the sprint. a magnetic switch could be inside the handlebar and activated by a magnetic ring on the finger over the spot. All the wires are hidden, and the capacitor and motor are hidden and the weight would under 1kg, even lighter if a lot of money was thrown at the technology. Definitely something to watch out for.
BTW, how about a rear hub mounted tiny motor/battery that stores up energy during downhills and releases it automatically during the climbs?

https://cyclingtips.com/2015/04/hidden-motors-for-road-bikes-exist-heres-how-they-work/

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

FWIW,
I found this comment below an otherwise trivial cyclingtips article on motors:

John Pombrio
Technology can get around a few of the telltales. the battery could be replaced by a super-capacitor that would be lighter and could easily be recharged while riding. You don't need 90 minutes in a peleton, you need at most 5 minutes to catch up to the breakaway or the sprint. a magnetic switch could be inside the handlebar and activated by a magnetic ring on the finger over the spot. All the wires are hidden, and the capacitor and motor are hidden and the weight would under 1kg, even lighter if a lot of money was thrown at the technology. Definitely something to watch out for.
BTW, how about a rear hub mounted tiny motor/battery that stores up energy during downhills and releases it automatically during the climbs?

https://cyclingtips.com/2015/04/hidden-motors-for-road-bikes-exist-heres-how-they-work/

Nope. This is pure nonsense. If you really want a detailed list, I will. But capacitor's make for useless batteries. Joules/volume is just pathetic. Not happening.

John Swanson

 

[Nicko.]

Re: Re:

First: you've heard of clutch bearing, yes? Yes of course. But they are not infinitely thin. I'd expect you'd need 1mm extra radial space for it

Second: Why does the sun gear have to protrude from the axle? The sun gear rotates around the fixed axle, the cannot occupie the same space...

Third: A 3:1 reduction actually fits nicely with the peak power curves we can expect. I fail to expect. What motor design gives these power curves?

Fourth: What would a professional cyclist pay to get even 20 Watts added to their FTP? That's 'why', not 'how'. Nice try...

Fifth: Skateboard enthusiasts are demonstrably doing this exact thing in their garage with off the shelf parts They don't need a gearbox and they have 4x the volume available.

Sixth: I've played along, but your hub dimensions are a wildly artificial constraint. Anybody with a brain would pick a relatively popular hub with the largest volume possible.I picked the discussed, rear-wheel-swapping PR-winning bike, saw a Shimano C50 wheelset, got to work. Was that incorrect? Which controversial bike hub should we pick?

Seventh: You've allowed zero room for innovation from someone possessing motivation and talent. On the contrary. I really tried to stretch the mechanical restraints and asked for sound, realistic ideas w/o picking on details

Ten minutes, Google, and zero engineering effort says this is wildly plausible. I havn't seen it yet.

John Swanson

PS - I never did tap into that volume provided by the freehub. Your clutch bearing needs half of it. You can put your electronics in the other half.

Reference for item 6:

You see the hub shell of that C50? It's a little bit thicker than your thumb...

Look, I get your genereal point. I believe there was a wheel motor in the case of Ryder. Don't now anything about that hub though.
I can grasp the extremely difficult constraints of hub motors in a C50 hub or a CX race. You have not shown a sound and realistic solution for those scenarios.

Bumped out of excitement for the fruitful discussion.
I mean, most great ideas have started on the back of an envelope or on a napkin in a bar.
Conversely, if an idea can't be scribbled down convincingly on said paper based items, it's probably not sound and realistic.

NB, we're talking a hub motor that sits in a non-conspicuous road hub.
Something that won't be looked and pointed at.
Not a MTB hub.
Not a gutted Powertap hub.
But a standard Shimano, Campagnolo, Enve, DT, Zipp, whatever, road hub.
With a quick-release.

 

[sniper]

I think you've done a good job pointing out some of the limitations and restrictions and complications, but I would be absolutely baffled if it's not already happening.

Why have all those pro-teams ongoing collaborations with F1 teams? Sky has been working with McLaren from 2009 onwards; Jaguar is also in the mix. I doubt it is to improve Varjas' crank drive motor.

We have the abundant rumors about hub motors, we have thermal footage of a glowing hub, thermal specialists saying it can only be explained by a hub motor, in the hub of a guy (Roglic) whose results (sudden rise as a TT star) are really most plausibly explained by a motor, and for whom there is additional evidence of motor-use (e.g. suspicious bike-testing patterns at Giro; see Roglic thread for further discussion), and well.. the overall picture is rather smoking. And in pro-cycling, where there is smoke there is fire, most of the time.

Here's a good summary article: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/19/sports/cycling/with-a-discreet-motor-doping-the-bike-instead-of-the-cyclist.html?_r=0

The smaller hub-assist motors, which he makes only for custom orders, typically produce only about 25 watts, he said, and require the rider to be able to maintain a high pedaling rate as is the case with all professionals. Even a 25-watt boost would be significant during a professional race.

 

[Nicko.]

Again, I don't need convincing regarding motor fraud.
I welcome a sound discussion regarding a worthwhile motor in a road hub. With a realistic risk/reward ratio. Still waiting.

I urge you to connect McLaren and Jaguar with TomEngine's business model. Not seeing it.

The 'glowing' hub is evidence but not convincing, IMO.

 

[Nicko.]

Re:

Here's a good summary article: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/19/sports/cycling/with-a-discreet-motor-doping-the-bike-instead-of-the-cyclist.html?_r=0

The smaller hub-assist motors, which he makes only for custom orders, typically produce only about 25 watts, he said, and require the rider to be able to maintain a high pedaling rate as is the case with all professionals. Even a 25-watt boost would be significant during a professional race.

It's funny how ONE erroneous statement sinks the whole story.
Hub motors are completely disconnected from cadence.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Here's a good summary article: https://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/19/sports/cycling/with-a-discreet-motor-doping-the-bike-instead-of-the-cyclist.html?_r=0

The smaller hub-assist motors, which he makes only for custom orders, typically produce only about 25 watts, he said, and require the rider to be able to maintain a high pedaling rate as is the case with all professionals. Even a 25-watt boost would be significant during a professional race.

It's funny how ONE erroneous statement sinks the whole story.
Hub motors are completely disconnected from cadence.

It's an interesting point, but not sure if that sinks the story. Even if hub motors are disconnected from cadence, maybe the high cadence correlates to the heart rate monitor which in turn triggers the motor?
Maybe I'm talking nonsense here. Generally I am in the dark about the alleged correlation between high cadence and motor use.

The reason I quoted that was the 25 watt, which seems to correspond roughly to John's and your calculations of what would perhaps (under right conditions) be possible for a hub motor.

To be sure, the coverage of the motor issue in the press contains more holes than a swiss cheese.
But most of the times, it seems to be a matter of the journalist simply not having a clue, and just mixing up things. There was one story (again citing Varjas) where the author spoke about the crank assist motor and in the same sentence said that the motor was hidden in the hub. I doubt Varjas told him that.

As for Varjas, I doubt he's capable of making a hub motor himself, despite him claiming this.
But I also doubt he would just make up their existence out of thin air.

 

[sniper]

Re:

I urge you to connect McLaren and Jaguar with TomEngine's business model. Not seeing it.

Not sure what you mean here.
All I know is F1 are a driving force in hub motor technology, and that procycling teams seem very keen on collaborating with F1. This collaboration has been ongoing for many years now.

Energy recovery (recuperation) and less wear on the brakes when riding downhill. Known also in Formula 1 as KERS (Kinetic Energy Recovery System), it is only possible on rear wheel hub motors. Can be set to a minimum of two levels on a GO SwissDrive.
http://www.go-swissdrive.com/en/advantages-of-a-rear-hub-motor/

I also found this comment interesting, but do tell me if it's bollox:

What is to stop you from taking a standard dc motor, like the ones used in toy scooters, and reinforcing the !#$@% out of it, namely in the (casing? or is it a shell?) itself and the axel, welding a rim to the (reinforced) casing of the motor and using that as a hub motor with the motors axel acting like the axel of a bike wheel, with everything revolving around it?

Would the motor just plain not have enough torque?, or is there some other blatantly obvious issue that I can't think of?

http://www.instructables.com/id/Make-Your-Own-Miniature-Electric-Hub-Motor/

 

[ulrikmm]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

If bike rims can be made with electric coils, electronics and batteries inside, it would make sense to put the necessary magnets in the rim brake shoes. This will cause minimal distance between the stator and the electromagnet.

Do the current suspects of motor fraud use disc brakes or rim brakes?

Ulrikmm

 

[Tienus]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

If bike rims can be made with electric coils, electronics and batteries inside, it would make sense to put the necessary magnets in the rim brake shoes. This will cause minimal distance between the stator and the electromagnet.

Do the current suspects of motor fraud use disc brakes or rim brakes?

Ulrikmm

I've allready noticed rim brakes are still popular amongst them. Just like mechanical shifting in the past. I thought it was for weight saving but you make an interesting point.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

If bike rims can be made with electric coils, electronics and batteries inside, it would make sense to put the necessary magnets in the rim brake shoes. This will cause minimal distance between the stator and the electromagnet.

Do the current suspects of motor fraud use disc brakes or rim brakes?

Ulrikmm

I've allready noticed rim brakes are still popular amongst them. Just like mechanical shifting in the past. I thought it was for weight saving but you make an interesting point.

Pretty much everybody bar a few QuickStep riders use discs, lol.

 

[Tienus]

Pretty much everybody bar a few QuickStep riders use discs, lol.

Still popular does not mean they are riding them all the time. Lets see wich one they use.

Complete team bike list:
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/product-news/worldtour-pro-team-bikes-guide-152997

Sagan:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/peter-sagan-reveals-bora-hansgrohe-world-champion-specialized-venge-vias/
Contador:
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/racing/alberto-contador-john-degenkolb-appear-new-trek-segafredo-kit-307270

 

[sniper]

lol.

edit:
https://twitter.com/LaureusSport/status/830735141723049984

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

If bike rims can be made with electric coils, electronics and batteries inside, it would make sense to put the necessary magnets in the rim brake shoes. This will cause minimal distance between the stator and the electromagnet.

Do the current suspects of motor fraud use disc brakes or rim brakes?

Ulrikmm

I've allready noticed rim brakes are still popular amongst them. Just like mechanical shifting in the past. I thought it was for weight saving but you make an interesting point.

Pretty much everybody bar a few QuickStep riders use discs, lol.

You mean rim brakes, yes?

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

If bike rims can be made with electric coils, electronics and batteries inside, it would make sense to put the necessary magnets in the rim brake shoes. This will cause minimal distance between the stator and the electromagnet.

Do the current suspects of motor fraud use disc brakes or rim brakes?

Ulrikmm

I've allready noticed rim brakes are still popular amongst them. Just like mechanical shifting in the past. I thought it was for weight saving but you make an interesting point.

Pretty much everybody bar a few QuickStep riders use discs, lol.

You mean rim brakes, yes?

Yes, obviously.

 

[Tom the Engine]

Re: Re:

You have made your judgement on the expert shown in the video.

No I didn't judge the expert. I'm sure he's fine, he works at FLIR. I only pointed out that this expert does not make any concise or bold statements at all.
(And I added that the whole scene looked awfully similar to what I know from personal experience with journalists. They love to call you up just to fish some "expert quotes", and of course they only use the ones that fit their narrative. But that's admittedly just speculation in this case.)

Stade 2 is talking about experts in plural.

Yes and I can tell you who the other "expert engineer" was: Varjas.
I bet you 50 bucks in the currency of your choice that they didn't talk to anybody else than these two. And you know what, that's ok. They talked to one engineer who is proficient with motors and bike mechanics (Varjas) and one engineer who knows thermal cameras well. So the whole range is covered. No need to get second and third opinions on everything.

But the problem is: The guy who knows about bikes and motors presumably is not proficient with thermal imaging. And vice versa. If you independently add up two isolated experts you never get the complete picture. You necessarily have to interweave the two expert opinions otherwise important subtleties might fall through the cracks.
Again, here is what they should have done: First, make sure to understand what you want to measure (possible motor specifications, locations on bikes, power, etc). Secondly, tell the enigneer in thermal imaging your objectives and ask him to design a tailor-made measurement setup for you that guarantees quality results. Don't just rent a thermal camera, start filming and show your footage around afterwards (and their material very much looks like they did just that).

You might be right that it was a bad yob but they could also have used experts from the start of the investigation. For me there is no way of telling from what has been aired.

Of course I don't know either. And again I have to be upfront with you that I'm not proficient in thermal imaging. I did a couple of hours research on it out of interest but that's it. So any input from someone with more experience is welcome.
But as a physicist I'm obviously very familiar with the basics behind it and over all those years I had to learn the hard way that there are probably infinitly many ways to f*ck up a measurement. Combined, to me it looks like kids running around with sophisticated measurement equipment they don't understand.

 

[Tom the Engine]

Follow up to my last post:
I felt that I should add something with a bit of substance and not just rant. So here is a small example to show that thermal imaging is quite intricate although it kinda just looks like filming with a normal video camera. I try to keep it as simple (and therefore oversimplified) as possible.

A thermal camera measures radiation from the surface of an object. This radiation is either emitted from the surface (that's what we're interested in) or transmitted through the object (let's leave this aside) or it is radiation coming from elsewhere that is reflected by the surface.
Now let's talk about these reflections: It's basically the same as with visible light. How strong the reflection is depends on the material (e.g. light gets reflected by a mirror but not so much by other surfaces). Metals in general are much more reflective than other materials. These reflections are a problem for thermal imaging because the camera cannot distinguish between emitted radiation that comes from the object (and is useful to determine temperature) and reflected radiation that comes from elsewhere (and therefore hurts the measurement).

So if you're measuring an object that contains metallic parts you have to be very careful about reflections. Even the radiation from your body heat could influence your measured value if you're standing close-by.
Would you have thought of that? Of course not! That's why people working with these cameras have to complete a thorough training first. And that's just one of multiple potential pitfalls one has to deal with. If you don't adapt your measurement setup to the circumstances and calibrate the camera accordingly you're very likely to measure crap. Period.

Finally making a link to Stade 2: Roglic is very close to a running car with a warm motor hood in this very short sequence. Can you guarantee me that this warmer-than-expected looking hub is not at least partially caused by thermal radiation from the car that gets reflected at his metallic cassette?
Because this big blob that is "glowing" in the picture is mainly his cassette, the hub itself is much smaller.
I'm not making any claims here. But are you confident that the Stade 2 journalists even thought about potential problems like this? I'm not. I don't trust their measurement.

 

[thehog]

Re:

Follow up to my last post:
I felt that I should add something with a bit of substance and not just rant. So here is a small example to show that thermal imaging is quite intricate although it kinda just looks like filming with a normal video camera. I try to keep it as simple (and therefore oversimplified) as possible.

A thermal camera measures radiation from the surface of an object. This radiation is either emitted from the surface (that's what we're interested in) or transmitted through the object (let's leave this aside) or it is radiation coming from elsewhere that is reflected by the surface.
Now let's talk about these reflections: It's basically the same as with visible light. How strong the reflection is depends on the material (e.g. light gets reflected by a mirror but not so much by other surfaces). Metals in general are much more reflective than other materials. These reflections are a problem for thermal imaging because the camera cannot distinguish between emitted radiation that comes from the object (and is useful to determine temperature) and reflected radiation that comes from elsewhere (and therefore hurts the measurement).

So if you're measuring an object that contains metallic parts you have to be very careful about reflections. Even the radiation from your body heat could influence your measured value if you're standing close-by.
Would you have thought of that? Of course not! That's why people working with these cameras have to complete a thorough training first. And that's just one of multiple potential pitfalls one has to deal with. If you don't adapt your measurement setup to the circumstances and calibrate the camera accordingly you're very likely to measure crap. Period.

Finally making a link to Stade 2: Roglic is very close to a running car with a warm motor hood in this very short sequence. Can you guarantee me that this warmer-than-expected looking hub is not at least partially caused by thermal radiation from the car that gets reflected at his metallic cassette?
Because this big blob that is "glowing" in the picture is mainly his cassette, the hub itself is much smaller.
I'm not making any claims here. But are you confident that the Stade 2 journalists even thought about potential problems like this? I'm not. I don't trust their measurement.

This is a little bit stupid post. I do agree Stade 2 didn't have opportunity to impound the bikes after the stage but that's what thermal imaging gives you, an indication of the heat or lack of heat source. You also move the camera and take several shots to remove away the reflecting light to see the consistent source of active heat.

All the manufactures tell you this, I did very much the same one of my properties when looking for a water leak. After taking three shots I could see where the leak was centered and then bust through the plaster close the leak, fix the pipe then paste over the hole.

The UCI could do the same. Take several imaging shots the bikes that might be using a motor, impound the bikes which are suspicious and carrying out further testing with thermal imagining minus the reflecting heat and the break the bike open if required.

http://thermal-imaging-blog.com/index.php/2010/03/01/reflected-background-and-its-potential-impact-on-a-good-thermal-image/#.WKEf5nTsGf0

But there's no way the UCI wants to do any of that.