Motor doping thread

[Parker]

Re: Re:

Around that time there was a gang of bike thieves targeting pro teams.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bike-thieves-caught-in-austria-after-stealing-amore-e-vita-race-bikes/

You're saying that Cancellara slept with his bike because Amore e Vita had their van robbed? ...okay That might not be the best theory you've come up with.

John Swanson

Where was Cancellara mentioned by the person who said this? You've added Cancellara. I've certainly heard of mechanics taking bikes into their rooms for security reasons

Eh. You conflated a single theft from a van with all pros sleeping with their bikes. A bit ludicrous, don't you think? There's *probably* a few layers of security that management would undertake before the "must sleep with bikes" scenario.

John Swanson

John Swanson

If you read the article, it includes the line "The bike thieves are suspected of being part of a gang that has regularly targeted teams in Italy.". I'm sure that would have caused some degree paranoia across teams.

Now let's look at the motor angle, because I have a question. Presumably the rider kept the bike in his room to ensure that people not 'in the know' didn't have a look at it or work on it. If this was the case, then why bring it to the hotel in the first place? Why not keep it off-site and deliver it in the morning? I assume there must be others involved other than just the rider. Sleeping with your bike is just going to invite questions from those not in the know.

 

[jmdirt]

I mentioned omerat above, why haven't we heard from a disgruntled team employee or rider? With EPO there were accusations, with motor fraud there are even more people in the know, yet no news from within.

 

[Craigee]

Re: Re:

Thanks Benotti69.

So convenient for ALL the Rio bikes to be broken. It says Kenny broke 5 bikes. Lucky he didn't break any at the Olympics and you'd think that it would be hard to have the confidence to put out full power when you've broken 5 bikes already. No worries for him though.

They make no secret that it was all about keeping these bikes secret for Rio but also the next model secret leading into Tokyo but what the hell happened to the UCI rule that the bikes used have to be available in shops for the public?

you are welcome

Stinks of motors!!! Every bike broken and no one in the sport batted an eyelid, of course none broken at the oh so important gold winning moment.

That no one questioned this in cycling makes me think that motors are in use across the board!

Cav took 8 seconds off his 4km PB. And he had the cheek to say he was disappointed not to break Wiggins' Olympic record? The female sprinters couldn't qualify a team for the team sprint but they turned up in Rio and were top qualifiers in the Sprint. Trott had done how many omniums and IPs? Plenty but she takes seconds off her PB for the individual pursuit. Skinner improved out of sight in 2016 from average to a brilliant 9.7 then slips back again this year to 15th fastest. Exactly the same with Katy Marchant. Slipped back to 16th this year. Something stinks for sure.

If the other countries don't demand bike checks and done properly with good testing equipment in Tokyo then they get what they deserve. They were all suspicious of GB in Rio and it was all about motors.

 

[Huapango]

Re:

I mentioned omerat above, why haven't we heard from a disgruntled team employee or rider? With EPO there were accusations, with motor fraud there are even more people in the know, yet no news from within.

I remember Boonen awhile back hinting at motordoping, or whatever you want to call it. Perhaps riders think it's a healthier alternative to doping with PEDs and don't mind as much. Heck, maybe the whole stinking peleton is in on it. If riders all agreed to stop PEDs and instead just use motors, would using motors be a more realistic "levelling of the playing field" if teams decide on a motor wattage limit? Yes, I'm being semi-sarcastic, but if I were a pro and had to choose between taking drugs that could kill me vs. having a motor in my bike, to earn a living, I would choose the motor.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

I mentioned omerat above, why haven't we heard from a disgruntled team employee or rider? With EPO there were accusations, with motor fraud there are even more people in the know, yet no news from within.

I remember Boonen awhile back hinting at motordoping, or whatever you want to call it. Perhaps riders think it's a healthier alternative to doping with PEDs and don't mind as much. Heck, maybe the whole stinking peleton is in on it. If riders all agreed to stop PEDs and instead just use motors, would using motors be a more realistic "levelling of the playing field" if teams decide on a motor wattage limit? Yes, I'm being semi-sarcastic, but if I were a pro and had to choose between taking drugs that could kill me vs. having a motor in my bike, to earn a living, I would choose the motor.

Two things: one, that was several years ago when the seat tube/BB motor was finding its way into races, two, that's only one rider with a slight comment. If the magic motors exist, why isn't there someone crying foul? We're talking about 100s of people knowing about it, but not one is making a stink? Were is Simeoni?!

 

[Tienus]

Two things: one, that was several years ago when the seat tube/BB motor was finding its way into races, two, that's only one rider with a slight comment. If the magic motors exist, why isn't there someone crying foul? We're talking about 100s of people knowing about it, but not one is making a stink? Were is Simeoni?!

Plenty of insiders at least hinting at thinking/knowing motors are used in the pro peloton.

From the top of my head a list of insiders that have not been mentioned in the recent discussion in this thread:

Cedric Vasseur
Laurent Jalabert
Mario Cippolini
Jose de Cauwer
Gianni Bugno
Jacky Durand
Cyrille Guimard
Davide Cassani
Nico Mattan
Karl Vannieuwkerke
Danilo Di Luca
Michele Ferrari

 

[Tienus]

For those who think Varjas has zero credibility:

Who else than Varjas could have leaked the Barfield emails?

 

[Tienus]

The rear wheel with hub motor shown in the latest stade 2 report looks like a four spoke TT wheel as used by protour riders. Could be Corima or Pro fro example.

 

[Tienus]

Why didn't these thermal guns find any motors then? After all many on this forum, including you, are absolutely sure motors were being used, yet these thermal guns seem just as bad at finding them as the scanners are?

These scanners where operated by the UCI from the back of a motorcycle. Riders could see when they where being used. Like the ipad it was looking like a pr show from the UCI. For example the scanning was done twice on live tv just before Cummings took off.

 

[StryderHells]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

new orbea ebike out with a pretty stealthy looking hub motor...

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/orbea-gain-e-bikes-dont-look-like-e-bikes-50761/

Looking at it on the Orbea site it's not very stealthy, but looking at the price point it shouldn't be all that small and stealthy looking. Any hub motor that fits inside of a regular sized and thus undetectable will be at a much higher price point.

 

[Tienus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5XBIjSCrAnk&feature=youtu.be

Wiggins:
I'm sure its happened in the past.

I can understand why some people would dope with whats to be gained from it.
But to stick a motor in your bike I don't understand really.


Cancellara like Cookson does not want to answer questions until the reasoned decission comes out.
One and a half years after Femke got sanctioned we are still waiting for it!

 

[samhocking]

I don't know much about the Cervélo T5GB bikes apart from they look like a modified Cervélo P3 TT frame. However the only thing i'll add regarding the possibility of adding motors, is Mercedes F1, Williams F1, Red Bull F1 and Cambridge Uni all worked on this frame and developed the wheels and did this very publicly. You're talking about a huge amount of reputation on the line for very little financial reward compared to what their day-to-day work in F1 & Education brings in considering these bikes will be watched by billions in the Olympics. As we see on track regularly, when crashes happen wheels disintegrate, frames snap open, wheels get ripped out, cranks snap, chains snap. There's a lot of very simple things that regularly go wrong track racing that could easily expose a motor and a battery and wires and there's nowhere to hide in a velodrome.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

OK, so are youre now basically describing a Bedini-type motor, but one with usable torque to drive a rider and wheel, ie a high torque pulsed rotational wheel similar to the one Varjas describes, but the specialist permanent magnets in the rim Varjas claims he uses are replaced with electromagnets driven by a, another battery too? I've not really looked much into Bedini wheels, certainly not in the context of it being like a starter motor in a car anyway.

Okay. So physics isn't currently your thing, but you are obviously enthusiastic. I just have to say that you might want to brush up on this. Lots of places to start, like Wikipedia as an obvious one. My most sincere recommendation, though, is the Feynman series of lectures which have recently become available online for free. You obviously have a good mind and a grasp for the fundamentals, but I'm sorry. Your arguments just don't stack up. With a bit of a nudge, you could be a force to be reckoned with.

John Swanson

Not really wanting to be a force to be reckoned with, I get that in my day job thanks. Just trying to work out how the principle of a starter motor or I guess simply a brushless dc motor with or without permanent magnets can possible work in a non-detectable bike wheel/frame motor capable of delivering 30w to 3000w of power as Varjas claims, when all you have is 4 little cylinders in the area next to the rim about 30mm long with a diameter of maybe 10mm in the seat stays and perhaps 20mm in chainstays? You think even 100w can be found in such a small volume to put everything? I don't know, i'm asking for proof it can be. As far as i'm concerned Varjas seems to describes a brushless DC motor and that's as far as he gets which I can see you might get 30-50w from the stays and rim with a normal-looking spoked wheel seen in peloton.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I mentioned omerat above, why haven't we heard from a disgruntled team employee or rider? With EPO there were accusations, with motor fraud there are even more people in the know, yet no news from within.

I remember Boonen awhile back hinting at motordoping, or whatever you want to call it. Perhaps riders think it's a healthier alternative to doping with PEDs and don't mind as much. Heck, maybe the whole stinking peleton is in on it. If riders all agreed to stop PEDs and instead just use motors, would using motors be a more realistic "levelling of the playing field" if teams decide on a motor wattage limit? Yes, I'm being semi-sarcastic, but if I were a pro and had to choose between taking drugs that could kill me vs. having a motor in my bike, to earn a living, I would choose the motor.

Two things: one, that was several years ago when the seat tube/BB motor was finding its way into races, two, that's only one rider with a slight comment. If the magic motors exist, why isn't there someone crying foul? We're talking about 100s of people knowing about it, but not one is making a stink? Were is Simeoni?!

Who leaked doping in the 80s apart from Kimmage?

Who leaked doping in the 90s apart from Bassons?

Motors in pro racing bikes is big business. Who is going to risk (possibly their life) f**king up someone's lucrative business? And many people profit from this!

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

I make concrete for a living, was a computer programmer for 10 years before that. Raced bikes for 30 years and make an annual pilgrimage to a Grand Tour or World Champs every other year for the last 35. You're deluded if you think I would do all this under my real name and not a pseudonym if paid to write anything here. You can find me here on facebook, on youtube on twitter blardyblah all under my birth name. Says a lot that even my presence here results in you thinking i'm paid by Sky to not believe you, but then this whole clinic is essentially built on conspiracy, so perhaps should be assumed lol.

Here's me out on my bike in 1988/9 6th from the left.

The delusion is believing pros are not using motors. A French TV station is not going to waste scarce resources chasing shadows. They may have had to cut a lot of the information out due to lawyers, but you can sure the producers know that motor use is going on. That the French police were getting involved again is proof that it is going on. Again no one is going to waste time and valuable resources chasing shadows. It is only a matter of time till this comes out, it always does.

Your arguments against motors is based on Varjas, not the evidence presented. He is merely the messenger an you keep shooting at him. Try looking at the evidence. If Froome is not using a motor then his racing style is one never witnessed before and he is a cycling pharmacy where the drugs kick in with the power of thought!!!!

I'll ask you again - Why would French Police be interested in motors in bikes ? It's not against the law - It seems like a misplacing of priorities by French police ?

It is against French law.

Edit: my apologies, the government will submit a report on the criminalisation of technological fraud plus an increase in the power of the French anti-doping agency in this area before December 31 2017.

That may be why Froome is winning La Vuelta because next year it will be criminalised to use motors.

So I was right - All the more reason for the French Police to more effectively deploy their resources - Let Sporting Federations deal with motor doping and WADA and it's anti-doping agencies deal with drugs.

 

[yaco]

Re: Re:

Around that time there was a gang of bike thieves targeting pro teams.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bike-thieves-caught-in-austria-after-stealing-amore-e-vita-race-bikes/

You're saying that Cancellara slept with his bike because Amore e Vita had their van robbed? ...okay That might not be the best theory you've come up with.

John Swanson

Where was Cancellara mentioned by the person who said this? You've added Cancellara. I certainly heard of mechanics taking bikes into their rooms for security reasons

Riders were on their bikes on trainers at night in hotel rooms in the mid 90s due to risk of blood thickening from EPO and possible death in their sleep.

You are 100% correct with this post - Of course we can't be 100% certain it was their actual race bikes.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

So I was right - All the more reason for the French Police to more effectively deploy their resources - Let Sporting Federations deal with motor doping and WADA and it's anti-doping agencies deal with drugs.

Well you are also wrong. WADA and the UCI are not effective in dealing with cheating. In fact they enable it. We see that time and time again.

Motor doping will become illegal. The French are not going to risk damaging their biggest tourist advertisment and the delay is giving time to teams to find new ways to cheat.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Around that time there was a gang of bike thieves targeting pro teams.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bike-thieves-caught-in-austria-after-stealing-amore-e-vita-race-bikes/

You're saying that Cancellara slept with his bike because Amore e Vita had their van robbed? ...okay That might not be the best theory you've come up with.

John Swanson

Where was Cancellara mentioned by the person who said this? You've added Cancellara. I certainly heard of mechanics taking bikes into their rooms for security reasons

Riders were on their bikes on trainers at night in hotel rooms in the mid 90s due to risk of blood thickening from EPO and possible death in their sleep.

You are 100% correct with this post - Of course we can't be 100% certain it was their actual race bikes.

Sure teams went to the hassle of bringing more bikes to use in hotels rather than a race bike, because you know it is more work.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Re:

I mentioned omerat above, why haven't we heard from a disgruntled team employee or rider? With EPO there were accusations, with motor fraud there are even more people in the know, yet no news from within.

I remember Boonen awhile back hinting at motordoping, or whatever you want to call it. Perhaps riders think it's a healthier alternative to doping with PEDs and don't mind as much. Heck, maybe the whole stinking peleton is in on it. If riders all agreed to stop PEDs and instead just use motors, would using motors be a more realistic "levelling of the playing field" if teams decide on a motor wattage limit? Yes, I'm being semi-sarcastic, but if I were a pro and had to choose between taking drugs that could kill me vs. having a motor in my bike, to earn a living, I would choose the motor.

Two things: one, that was several years ago when the seat tube/BB motor was finding its way into races, two, that's only one rider with a slight comment. If the magic motors exist, why isn't there someone crying foul? We're talking about 100s of people knowing about it, but not one is making a stink? Were is Simeoni?!

Who leaked doping in the 80s apart from Kimmage?

Who leaked doping in the 90s apart from Bassons?

Motors in pro racing bikes is big business. Who is going to risk (possibly their life) f**king up someone's lucrative business? And many people profit from this!

But its not really.

In 2001, 2, 3 there were at least a dozen people from inside cycling making a lot of noise about EPO, and the number continued to grow. Maybe we haven't hit that point yet with motors or maybe motors aren't being used as much as is being assumed.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

I mentioned omerat above, why haven't we heard from a disgruntled team employee or rider? With EPO there were accusations, with motor fraud there are even more people in the know, yet no news from within.

I remember Boonen awhile back hinting at motordoping, or whatever you want to call it. Perhaps riders think it's a healthier alternative to doping with PEDs and don't mind as much. Heck, maybe the whole stinking peleton is in on it. If riders all agreed to stop PEDs and instead just use motors, would using motors be a more realistic "levelling of the playing field" if teams decide on a motor wattage limit? Yes, I'm being semi-sarcastic, but if I were a pro and had to choose between taking drugs that could kill me vs. having a motor in my bike, to earn a living, I would choose the motor.

Two things: one, that was several years ago when the seat tube/BB motor was finding its way into races, two, that's only one rider with a slight comment. If the magic motors exist, why isn't there someone crying foul? We're talking about 100s of people knowing about it, but not one is making a stink? Were is Simeoni?!

Who leaked doping in the 80s apart from Kimmage?

Who leaked doping in the 90s apart from Bassons?

Motors in pro racing bikes is big business. Who is going to risk (possibly their life) f**king up someone's lucrative business? And many people profit from this!

But its not really.

In 2001, 2, 3 there were at least a dozen people from inside cycling making a lot of noise about EPO, and the number continued to grow. Maybe we haven't hit that point yet with motors or maybe motors aren't being used as much as is being assumed.

Jean-Pierre Verdy, the former testing director for the French Anti-Doping Agency, said that riders have ridden motorised bikes in the Tour.

“It’s been the last three to four years when I was told about the use of the motors,” Verdy said. “And in 2014, they told me there are motors. And they told me, there’s a problem. By 2015, everyone was complaining and I said, something’s got to be done.”

Through insiders in the peloton, Verdy explained that he learned 12 riders used hidden motors in their bikes in the 2015 Tour.

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

In 2001, 2, 3 there were at least a dozen people from inside cycling making a lot of noise about EPO, and the number continued to grow. Maybe we haven't hit that point yet with motors or maybe motors aren't being used as much as is being assumed.

Eh?

In 1998 we has the Festina Affair (before anyone had heard of Bassons). EPO use was no secret throughout much of the 90s. Bjarne Riis was being called Mr 60%. It was just who and to what extent that was disputed. And journalists didn't really care much until Festina forced them to.

The idea that nobody knew about doping in the 80s and 90s is just plain wrong.

 

[ontheroad]

Re: Re:

I mentioned omerat above, why haven't we heard from a disgruntled team employee or rider? With EPO there were accusations, with motor fraud there are even more people in the know, yet no news from within.

I remember Boonen awhile back hinting at motordoping, or whatever you want to call it. Perhaps riders think it's a healthier alternative to doping with PEDs and don't mind as much. Heck, maybe the whole stinking peleton is in on it. If riders all agreed to stop PEDs and instead just use motors, would using motors be a more realistic "levelling of the playing field" if teams decide on a motor wattage limit? Yes, I'm being semi-sarcastic, but if I were a pro and had to choose between taking drugs that could kill me vs. having a motor in my bike, to earn a living, I would choose the motor.

Two things: one, that was several years ago when the seat tube/BB motor was finding its way into races, two, that's only one rider with a slight comment. If the magic motors exist, why isn't there someone crying foul? We're talking about 100s of people knowing about it, but not one is making a stink? Were is Simeoni?!

Who leaked doping in the 80s apart from Kimmage?

Who leaked doping in the 90s apart from Bassons?

Motors in pro racing bikes is big business. Who is going to risk (possibly their life) f**king up someone's lucrative business? And many people profit from this!

That's the thing about Varjas. I'm surprised that he has even disclosed the information that he has to date given the stakes. The $2m he received for the 10 year exclusive agreement to use motors back in 1998 could be easily proven or unproven from bank records. It just depends on how far he wants to take this. If you read between the lines it is easy to see the implications of what he is saying but there may be legal reasons that he hasn't gone full disclosure at this point.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

I mentioned omerat above, why haven't we heard from a disgruntled team employee or rider? With EPO there were accusations, with motor fraud there are even more people in the know, yet no news from within.

I remember Boonen awhile back hinting at motordoping, or whatever you want to call it. Perhaps riders think it's a healthier alternative to doping with PEDs and don't mind as much. Heck, maybe the whole stinking peleton is in on it. If riders all agreed to stop PEDs and instead just use motors, would using motors be a more realistic "levelling of the playing field" if teams decide on a motor wattage limit? Yes, I'm being semi-sarcastic, but if I were a pro and had to choose between taking drugs that could kill me vs. having a motor in my bike, to earn a living, I would choose the motor.

Two things: one, that was several years ago when the seat tube/BB motor was finding its way into races, two, that's only one rider with a slight comment. If the magic motors exist, why isn't there someone crying foul? We're talking about 100s of people knowing about it, but not one is making a stink? Were is Simeoni?!

Who leaked doping in the 80s apart from Kimmage?

Who leaked doping in the 90s apart from Bassons?

Motors in pro racing bikes is big business. Who is going to risk (possibly their life) f**king up someone's lucrative business? And many people profit from this!

That's the thing about Varjas. I'm surprised that he has even disclosed the information that he has to date given the stakes. The $2m he received for the 10 year exclusive agreement to use motors back in 1998 could be easily proven or unproven from bank records. It just depends on how far he wants to take this. If you read between the lines it is easy to see the implications of what he is saying but there may be legal reasons that he hasn't gone full disclosure at this point.

Through a friend, Varjas made an exclusive deal with a professional cyclist.

“Stefano swears he has no idea who it was. He gave us this bank record that shows that he had about $2 million at the time,” Whitaker said.

http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/there-has-been-motorised-doping-in-tour-de-france-us-tv-investigation-309193#7ZtI3FAUW2tTd765.99

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

In 2001, 2, 3 there were at least a dozen people from inside cycling making a lot of noise about EPO, and the number continued to grow. Maybe we haven't hit that point yet with motors or maybe motors aren't being used as much as is being assumed.

Eh?

In 1998 we has the Festina Affair (before anyone had heard of Bassons). EPO use was no secret throughout much of the 90s. Bjarne Riis was being called Mr 60%. It was just who and to what extent that was disputed. And journalists didn't really care much until Festina forced them to.

The idea that nobody knew about doping in the 80s and 90s is just plain wrong.

The idea that nobody knew about motors in the 2010-20s is just plain wrong.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

But its not really.

In 2001, 2, 3 there were at least a dozen people from inside cycling making a lot of noise about EPO, and the number continued to grow. Maybe we haven't hit that point yet with motors or maybe motors aren't being used as much as is being assumed.

I would've thought teams would pay big sums of money for a small motor.

I would've also thought that some teams would pay big money for exclusive use of a motor.

Once a team pays for motors their is always the possibility of having to pay hush hush money.