Motor doping thread

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Re: Re:

DanielSong39 said:
Parker said:
ScienceIsCool said:
Parker said:
Why didn't these thermal guns find any motors then? After all many on this forum, including you, are absolutely sure motors were being used, yet these thermal guns seem just as bad at finding them as the scanners are?
Thermal cameras have many drawbacks:
I know.

I'm not claiming they are the answer. (I don't even think there's a problem which needs an answer)
There's always the option of accepting that motors are part of bike racing and enjoying the sport for what it is. If you don't have a problem with that, that's AOK.
Exactly. It's the totally defensive 'see no evil, dismiss at all costs' approach that is bizarre without some sort of an agenda. Taking oneself into the clinic to constantly seek out reasons to dismiss motors is peculiar. If you don't think there are motors fine, go and enjoy the sport and stop posting in here, otherwise you are only running the risk of looking like a fool when the story eventually blows up completely.
 
Re: Re:

Parker said:
ontheroad said:
Here's one for now. Former 3 time tour winner Greg Lemond:


''Cycling weight is everything. Your body, your bike. If your bike weighs a kilo more, you would never race on it.''

In the 2015 Tour de France, bikes in the peloton were weighed before one of the time trial stages. French authorities told us the British Team Sky was the only team with bikes heavier than the rest—each bike weighed about 800 grams more. A spokesman for Team Sky said that during a time trial stage bikes might be heavier to allow for better aerodynamic performance. He said the team has never used mechanical assistance and that the bikes were checked and cleared by the sports governing body.
Pop along to the GCN channel YouTube. They do videos about pro bikes which often includes weighing them. All the TT bikes are overweight.

For example:

Dumoulin 9.03kg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP17D0Cndd8
Froome 8.52kg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc3zV4fTRGM
Castroviejo 8.29kg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRUGxMj-iko

So Dumoulin's is 800g heavier than Castroviejo's. Maybe Dumoulin is the one with the motor
That's fine but you edited my post to remove the main part of the excerpt from that article which was Lemond's actual opinion on the use of motor's. He said that he won't trust any tour winners until they figure out a way to adequately detect for motors. Why would the poster on an internet forum be more credible than a 3 time tour winner who has spoken to insiders including the police.
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
Craigee said:
Benotti69 said:
samhocking said:
DanielSong39 said:
Two types of comments I'm seeing in this thread:

- Clutching at straws; anything and everything is proof of motor use
- Strawman arguments; if you can't build or explain the racing motor currently being used in the modern peloton; they don't exist

Maybe the truth is something like, "Motor use is very probable but we don't know exactly what they are like".
Hardly a strawman argument if one of the inventors can't show what he claims he invented and what he does show is no different than what I can buy from any ebike company that would see me banned if used as a pro rider?
You can't buy F1 tech yet. It takes a while to trickle down. Pros won't be using off the shelf stuff.

Remember the Cervelo's TeamGb used at Rio, all supposedly broken! Not one frame left.
Benotti69. I would appreciate it if you could point me to a link for the TeamGB Cervelo bikes from Rio that are now broken. I believe they were up to something with all the personal best times. Thank You. Craig
https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/other-sports/team-gbs-brilliant-but-broken-bikes-mean-riders-will-be-on-old-frames-at-world-championships-a3504616.html

http://road.cc/content/news/220200-team-gb-race-old-bikes-after-all-cervélo-rio-models-break

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-4366064/GB-ride-13-year-old-bikes-Track-World-Championships.html
Thanks Benotti69.

So convenient for ALL the Rio bikes to be broken. It says Kenny broke 5 bikes. Lucky he didn't break any at the Olympics and you'd think that it would be hard to have the confidence to put out full power when you've broken 5 bikes already. No worries for him though.

They make no secret that it was all about keeping these bikes secret for Rio but also the next model secret leading into Tokyo but what the hell happened to the UCI rule that the bikes used have to be available in shops for the public?
 
Re: Re:

ontheroad said:
Why would the poster on an internet forum be more credible than a 3 time tour winner who has spoken to insiders including the police.
Because LeMond was wrong and I have shown why. He says 'weight is everything' and that an extra '800g' in a time trial bike rings alarm bells. But I have shown three bikes belonging to three top time triallists, weighed by others. The lightest of which is 1.5kg over the minimum weight and they vary by 800g. Clearly weight isn't everything.
 
Re: Re:

Parker said:
ontheroad said:
Why would the poster on an internet forum be more credible than a 3 time tour winner who has spoken to insiders including the police.
Because LeMond was wrong and I have shown why. He says 'weight is everything' and that an extra '800g' in a time trial bike rings alarm bells. But I have shown three bikes belonging to three top time triallists, weighed by others. The lightest of which is 1.5kg over the minimum weight and they vary by 800g. Clearly weight isn't everything.
I think you have finally convinced me that there are no motors in use then! I'll take the word of a sky intern over a 3 time tour winner who has spoken to several insiders on this matter and made an informed opinion so!
 
Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

samhocking said:
Haven't had time to read much, but freddy claiming an electro-magnetic motor doesn't need magnets, just coils was pretty funny!
Sam I feel for you and your level of understanding. I was very specific. I said there was no need for permanent magnets.

Last year 72 million cars were produced. The magnetic field required by the starter motor to enable it to be of a sufficiently small size given its very large power output, is such that using permanent magents is not practical. Coils are used to create a temporary magentic field that would otherwise be generated by a larger permanent magnet.

There are no permanent magnets in the 72 million starter motors produced last year, just coils creating electro-magnets. When the current is turned off, they are lose their magnetism. Now they do use iron as the soft magnetic core, transporting the field to where it is most effective. Iron - like that in the bolt on the seat clamp could be detected. but who is to say they are not using the new modern plastic electro-magnetic materials such as those used in pacemakers, computer disc drives and cochlear implants.

The point was the ipad could detect electric motors if used corrrectly, not every motor but enough. The Commissaires are not doing so. We don't know how many of Femke's fellow competitors at the World Champs had to report her before the UCI actually did something, but contemporary reports tended to indicate it was multiple, with a growing sense of frustration suggesting the UCI were reluctant to act. Surely they should have been leaping out of their skin at the first suggestion, if they actually wanted to catch someone. And who was caught ? UKAD get plenty of flak for busting nobodies.
 
Re: Re:

ontheroad said:
Parker said:
ontheroad said:
Why would the poster on an internet forum be more credible than a 3 time tour winner who has spoken to insiders including the police.
Because LeMond was wrong and I have shown why. He says 'weight is everything' and that an extra '800g' in a time trial bike rings alarm bells. But I have shown three bikes belonging to three top time triallists, weighed by others. The lightest of which is 1.5kg over the minimum weight and they vary by 800g. Clearly weight isn't everything.
I think you have finally convinced me that there are no motors in use then! I'll take the word of a sky intern over a 3 time tour winner who has spoken to several insiders on this matter and made an informed opinion so!
I'm not giving you my word. I'm showing video evidence that shows he is wrong when he says 'weight is everything' in TT bikes. And that an extra 800g is nothing to be alarmed about.
Maybe he knows more than Canyon, Giant and Pinarello do about TT tech.
 
Re: Re:

Parker said:
ontheroad said:
Parker said:
Benotti69 said:
Stop focusing solely on Varjas.
But he's the sole source for this story. It's like anti-vaxxers saying 'Stop focusing on Andrew Wakefield'
No he's not. There are several other public comments made by others as referred to earlier which you continue to ignore.
Name one other person that has said that he has first hand knowledge that motors have been used in the pro peloton
Boardman gave us one hell of a warning. Or is he like the Lemonds, another one without an engineering degree, who believes that the moon landings were fake ?
 
Jul 5, 2009
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Re: Re:

Parker said:
I'm not giving you my word. I'm showing video evidence that shows he is wrong when he says 'weight is everything' in TT bikes. And that an extra 800g is nothing to be alarmed about.
Maybe he knows more than Canyon, Giant and Pinarello do about TT tech.
Well it's good thing that Greg said no such thing! The quote was: "'Cycling weight is everything. Your body, your bike. If your bike weighs a kilo more, you would never race on it.''

Note that we have no context, and can not infer that he was including TT bikes. I believe the context was that one should weigh the wheels, because nobody would race on heavy equipment when light is available. Clearly, people use heavier disc wheels when it is appropriate. Clearly, Greg was not saying that people do not use disc wheels in a TT.

John Swanson
 
Jul 5, 2009
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Re: Re:

Parker said:
ontheroad said:
Look who his source for this information is. It's Varjas again
Quote: "When you see that in 2010 some very famous riders carried their bikes in their hotel room and slept next to them, you ask a lot of questions because it is neither the purpose, nor the practice, in our profession.” <--Varjas was probably not his source on that one, or any of the other fantastic, juicy bits of info in the article. Or did you just see the name Varjas and stop reading?

John Swanson
 
Re: Re:

ontheroad said:
DanielSong39 said:
Parker said:
ScienceIsCool said:
Parker said:
Why didn't these thermal guns find any motors then? After all many on this forum, including you, are absolutely sure motors were being used, yet these thermal guns seem just as bad at finding them as the scanners are?
Thermal cameras have many drawbacks:
I know.

I'm not claiming they are the answer. (I don't even think there's a problem which needs an answer)
There's always the option of accepting that motors are part of bike racing and enjoying the sport for what it is. If you don't have a problem with that, that's AOK.
Exactly. It's the totally defensive 'see no evil, dismiss at all costs' approach that is bizarre without some sort of an agenda. Taking oneself into the clinic to constantly seek out reasons to dismiss motors is peculiar. If you don't think there are motors fine, go and enjoy the sport and stop posting in here, otherwise you are only running the risk of looking like a fool when the story eventually blows up completely.
No the Clinic is the place to "discuss" doping issues. You can't impose groupthink. Since motors are a contentious topic right now, but not a single one has been found in the pro peloton, it's perfectly reasonable to debate why that might be, including the logical answer that there aren't any.
 
Re: Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
Well it's good thing that Greg said no such thing! The quote was: "'Cycling weight is everything. Your body, your bike. If your bike weighs a kilo more, you would never race on it.''

Note that we have no context, and can not infer that he was including TT bikes. I believe the context was that one should weigh the wheels, because nobody would race on heavy equipment when light is available. Clearly, people use heavier disc wheels when it is appropriate. Clearly, Greg was not saying that people do not use disc wheels in a TT.

John Swanson
Transcript from 60 minutes (as previously posted by ontheroad):

In the 2015 Tour de France, bikes in the peloton were weighed before one of the time trial stages. French authorities told us the British Team Sky was the only team with bikes heavier than the rest—each bike weighed about 800 grams more. A spokesman for Team Sky said that during a time trial stage bikes might be heavier to allow for better aerodynamic performance. He said the team has never used mechanical assistance and that the bikes were checked and cleared by the sports governing body.

A heavy bike doesn't prove anything on its own but to Greg LeMond the weight difference should have set off alarm bells. In this case, sources told us, the sport's governing body would not allow French investigators to remove the Team Sky wheels and weigh them separately to determine if the wheels were enhanced. LeMond said not enough is being done by the International Cycling Union to prevent cheating with motors.


LeMnd's comments about a weight difference setting off alarm bells is directly referring a weighing before a time trial stage. There's your context. I'm not inferring anything. 60 minutes is stating it.
 
Re: Re:

Freddythefrog said:
Boardman gave us one hell of a warning. Or is he like the Lemonds, another one without an engineering degree, who believes that the moon landings were fake ?
Boardman has only ever said that it's a possibility that the UCI needs to keep and eye on. He's right. It is a possibility. But he has never said they a reality and have actually been used.
 
May 26, 2010
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Re: Re:

Craigee said:
Thanks Benotti69.

So convenient for ALL the Rio bikes to be broken. It says Kenny broke 5 bikes. Lucky he didn't break any at the Olympics and you'd think that it would be hard to have the confidence to put out full power when you've broken 5 bikes already. No worries for him though.

They make no secret that it was all about keeping these bikes secret for Rio but also the next model secret leading into Tokyo but what the hell happened to the UCI rule that the bikes used have to be available in shops for the public?
you are welcome :)

Stinks of motors!!! Every bike broken and no one in the sport batted an eyelid, of course none broken at the oh so important gold winning moment.

That no one questioned this in cycling makes me think that motors are in use across the board!
 
Re: Re:

Parker said:
Freddythefrog said:
Boardman gave us one hell of a warning. Or is he like the Lemonds, another one without an engineering degree, who believes that the moon landings were fake ?
Boardman has only ever said that it's a possibility that the UCI needs to keep and eye on. He's right. It is a possibility. But he has never said they a reality and have actually been used.
Boardman.
"There is not a shred of doubt that the technology exists to cheat in this way and that a rider could get a definite return from such cheating. With little buttons controlling the gears these days I suspect it would also be pretty simple to disguise," Boardman said.

"As for detection, the extra weight would be almost negligible as most road racing bikes come in well underweight anyway when scrutinised so you would struggle to identify a cheat that way. The only sure-fire safeguard would be to X-ray every bike before the start of every race or before the start of every stage of every race.

He said this to the UCI in 2009. but of course some here believe that 8 years later and with millions of commercial embikes now on the roads, know way more than Boardman and the technology is not there yet ! Sam doesn't even know how the electric starter motor on his car works and yet considers he has the knowledge to dismiss everything.

Given Boardman's history of comment on PEDs and that he rode through the epo era, his quotes here are of enormous value.
 
Re: Re:

Freddythefrog said:
He said this to the UCI in 2009. but of course some here believe that 8 years later and with millions of commercial embikes now on the roads, know way more than Boardman and the technology is not there yet ! Sam doesn't even know how the electric starter motor on his car works and yet considers he has the knoweldge to dismiss everything.
So eight years later where is this technology? As you say e-bikes are millions commercially, yet the inventors seem to only want to sell these super discrete motors to an handful of pros. That makes about as much sense as Amgen selling EPO solely to dopers.
 
Re: Re:

Parker said:
Freddythefrog said:
He said this to the UCI in 2009. but of course some here believe that 8 years later and with millions of commercial embikes now on the roads, know way more than Boardman and the technology is not there yet ! Sam doesn't even know how the electric starter motor on his car works and yet considers he has the knowledge to dismiss everything.
So eight years later where is this technology? As you say e-bikes are millions commercially, yet the inventors seem to only want to sell these super discrete motors to an handful of pros. That makes about as much sense as Amgen selling EPO solely to dopers.
Parker you just don't read. In the last 24 hours I posted a link to a hidden emotor in a bike commercially avaialble and so did another poster today. The comment above is ridiculous given the availability of high quality commercial product with the motor and battery hidden.

I am reminded of the quote "never argue with an idiot - he will drag you down to his level and then beat you on expereince".
 
Re: Re:

Freddythefrog said:
Parker said:
Freddythefrog said:
He said this to the UCI in 2009. but of course some here believe that 8 years later and with millions of commercial embikes now on the roads, know way more than Boardman and the technology is not there yet ! Sam doesn't even know how the electric starter motor on his car works and yet considers he has the knowledge to dismiss everything.
So eight years later where is this technology? As you say e-bikes are millions commercially, yet the inventors seem to only want to sell these super discrete motors to an handful of pros. That makes about as much sense as Amgen selling EPO solely to dopers.
Parker you just don't read. In the last 24 hours I posted a link to a hidden emotor in a bike commercially avaialble and so did another poster today. The comment above is ridiculous given the availability of high quality commercial product with the motor and battery hidden.

I am reminded of the quote "never argue with an idiot - he will drag you down to his level and then beat you on expereince".
And that motor will be picked up easily by scanners. As even the Stade 2 programme showed.

Boardman said there is a possibility of them being used. He did not say they have been used. Which was my original question. Aside from Varjas - name one person who claims to have first hand knowledge of motors being used in the pro peloton. Boardman has not claimed that. My point was always that Varjas is the sole source saying that and he seems to me a very unreliable witness.

Just because something may be possible, it doesn't mean that it has happened.
 
Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Freddythefrog said:
samhocking said:
Haven't had time to read much, but freddy claiming an electro-magnetic motor doesn't need magnets, just coils was pretty funny!
Sam I feel for you and your level of understanding. I was very specific. I said there was no need for permanent magnets.

Last year 72 million cars were produced. The magnetic field required by the starter motor to enable it to be of a sufficiently small size given its very large power output, is such that using permanent magents is not practical. Coils are used to create a temporary magentic field that would otherwise be generated by a larger permanent magnet.

There are no permanent magnets in the 72 million starter motors produced last year, just coils creating electro-magnets. When the current is turned off, they are lose their magnetism. Now they do use iron as the soft magnetic core, transporting the field to where it is most effective. Iron - like that in the bolt on the seat clamp could be detected. but who is to say they are not using the new modern plastic electro-magnetic materials such as those used in pacemakers, computer disc drives and cochlear implants.

The point was the ipad could detect electric motors if used corrrectly, not every motor but enough. The Commissaires are not doing so. We don't know how many of Femke's fellow competitors at the World Champs had to report her before the UCI actually did something, but contemporary reports tended to indicate it was multiple, with a growing sense of frustration suggesting the UCI were reluctant to act. Surely they should have been leaping out of their skin at the first suggestion, if they actually wanted to catch someone. And who was caught ? UKAD get plenty of flak for busting nobodies.
Induction motors (motors without permanent magnets) can only be run from AC. You can't make an AC battery or DC Induction Motor - basic electrical foundation class Freddy! Maybe they plug the rider in using invisible flex to the national grid around France lol!
 
Re: Re:

Parker said:
And that motor will be picked up easily by scanners. As even the Stade 2 programme showed.

Boardman said there is a possibility of them being used. He did not say they have been used. Which was my original question. Aside from Varjas - name one person who claims to have first hand knowledge of motors being used in the pro peloton. Boardman has not claimed that. My point was always that Varjas is the sole source saying that and he seems to me a very unreliable witness.

Just because something may be possible, it doesn't mean that it has happened.
Did we watch different videos ? What I saw was that if the ipad was used in a totally different manner to the way the UCI commissaires are using it, the type of motor in those commercial bikes could be detected. Conclusion - the ipad could be of use.

Did you not read what I wrote about Boardman ? Of course he would not name anyone. Can't you recall how he would comment about Lance, Floyd Rasmussen and the rest ?

Let me summarise the case you appear to be arguing for. It is accepted as fact that ebikees, with state of the art hidden electric motors and batteries, of race result changing capability, are available to buy of the shelf and that although there is a detection system available, we have factual evidence that in every single video of the UCI conducting such checks they do it in a way so that it will not catch anyone. The conclusion from these two sets of evidence is that no one in the professional peloton would be so low and so cunning as to actually use one of these bikes;it is just too much to contemplate or, they are all too dull to work out that the UCI tests are uselss, to take advantage of the situation. Even when 3 years ago Greg Lemond advised the method of testing was uselss both the UCI - testers and the teams - possible advantage takers, ignored his comments as those of a raving madman. In fact just one person in the whole wide world in the last 7 years has been so base as to do such an evil thing - that evil, very evil, moto-girl, Femke.
 

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