Motor doping thread

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Jul 5, 2009
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Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

samhocking said:
Induction motors (motors without permanent magnets) can only be run from AC. You can't make an AC battery or DC Induction Motor - basic electrical foundation class Freddy! Maybe they plug the rider in using invisible flex to the national grid around France lol!
You do realize that most motors don't just plug into the wall, right? Most motors have a motor controller that create an appropriate voltage DC bus that is used to generate the correct waveform and frequency for the attached motor. You definitely could build a reluctance or induction motor that runs off a DC source. Here's a practical example: http://www.ti.com/lit/an/spra420a/spra420a.pdf

John Swanson
 
Re: Re:

Bolder said:
No the Clinic is the place to "discuss" doping issues. You can't impose groupthink. Since motors are a contentious topic right now, but not a single one has been found in the pro peloton, it's perfectly reasonable to debate why that might be, including the logical answer that there aren't any.
Fair enough, I can accept that totally and it's great that we are having this debate. If there wasn't this disagreement and it was all one sided postings then perhaps we wouldn't have as much information coming forward as we've had in the last few days and the debate would die. The more information in the public domain the better for all concerned and then people can make an informed decision based on everything they have heard
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
Craigee said:
Benotti69 said:
samhocking said:
DanielSong39 said:
Two types of comments I'm seeing in this thread:

- Clutching at straws; anything and everything is proof of motor use
- Strawman arguments; if you can't build or explain the racing motor currently being used in the modern peloton; they don't exist

Maybe the truth is something like, "Motor use is very probable but we don't know exactly what they are like".
Hardly a strawman argument if one of the inventors can't show what he claims he invented and what he does show is no different than what I can buy from any ebike company that would see me banned if used as a pro rider?
You can't buy F1 tech yet. It takes a while to trickle down. Pros won't be using off the shelf stuff.

Remember the Cervelo's TeamGb used at Rio, all supposedly broken! Not one frame left.
Benotti69. I would appreciate it if you could point me to a link for the TeamGB Cervelo bikes from Rio that are now broken. I believe they were up to something with all the personal best times. Thank You. Craig
https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/other-sports/team-gbs-brilliant-but-broken-bikes-mean-riders-will-be-on-old-frames-at-world-championships-a3504616.html

http://road.cc/content/news/220200-team-gb-race-old-bikes-after-all-cervélo-rio-models-break

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-4366064/GB-ride-13-year-old-bikes-Track-World-Championships.html
Very unfortunate that so many Cervelo's broke in Rio when all of those medals were being won and team GB over performed amidst the rumours and accusations of magic wheels. Just a co-incidence or destroying the evidence? As with a lot of these stories it is often the case that it is only some years afterwards that everything becomes apparent.
 
Just to keep things clear: I know that people will do anything to win. I know that seat tube/BB motors have been used in the platoon. I have not seen anything to convince me that a RACEABLE hub motor, nor wheel booster is in the platoon (but a TT disc would be the best place to develop one).

When GL first disused the weight issue, I thought that it was a great idea to start weighing bikes, but even if an independent group found the bikes to be near the UCI low weight, many on this forum would argue that the magic motors are just lighter now.

Someone posted that a room full of engineers could figure this out. Yes, but there isn't enough money in it to be worth their time. Consumer ebikes are already pretty good and don't require a complicated hidden motor (the seat tube/BB motor is hidden, but not complicated).

Plus, with several of these motor theories, you are implying that at least 50 people per bike are keeping quiet (people directly involved with the team, those involved in manufacturing...) Omerta is a powerful thing, but there is always someone who has a reason to sing.

EDIT: Don't buy a Cervelo, the motor mounts implode! :eek:
 
Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

ScienceIsCool said:
samhocking said:
Induction motors (motors without permanent magnets) can only be run from AC. You can't make an AC battery or DC Induction Motor - basic electrical foundation class Freddy! Maybe they plug the rider in using invisible flex to the national grid around France lol!
You do realize that most motors don't just plug into the wall, right? Most motors have a motor controller that create an appropriate voltage DC bus that is used to generate the correct waveform and frequency for the attached motor. You definitely could build a reluctance or induction motor that runs off a DC source. Here's a practical example: http://www.ti.com/lit/an/spra420a/spra420a.pdf

John Swanson
Yes, but not using the principle of a series wound DC Starter Motor principle Freddy was saying could work where half of it is in the rim and half in the frame (surely the frame would have to within 1mm of the rim for this to even work, not to mention there's only the seat stay and chain stay to put all this). Also speed falls rapidly with the increase in load in this type of motor, so it is really not suitable for constant speed application like riding a bike and adjustable speed control wirelessly or based on cardiac stress Varjas claims they are controlled by. I guess speed controllers could be feasible, I have no idea, but with decrease in speed, torque of the motor decreases sharply too so seems simply the wrong application in a bicycle of variable speed up and down variious terrain and speeds required. Miniaturising all this to create the claimed choice of 30 to 3000 watts Varjas claims is possible in the video seems far-fetched to me.
 
Re: Re:

:confused:
Benotti69 said:
Parker said:
Benotti69 said:
Parker said:
Benotti69 said:
I am also of the opinion that Sky released the video of Ag2R riders hanging onto cars to deflect from the motors story. A pot shot at the French.
It was remarkably obliging of the Ag2R riders to hang on to the car for them then.
A common part of the grupetto is holding onto cars. That Sky showed French riders doing it led to me that thought.

I have seen all teams riders hanging onto cars at Giro stages. Nothing new. Sky choosing to release a video of it is well timed.

https://twitter.com/Digger_forum/status/905437356123197440

Oh look a sky rider showing the same promise as Froome!!!!!
Oh look, here's one of the replies to that tweet (from a poster on here I believe)

FWIW I saw several of these pictures and it was apparently after the Xorret del Catí finish on the way to bus area.
I saw this happen in races.


You can contact dreamtime, the photo agency and ask them to verify if you want.
so Stannard is racing with a kind of flag in his back
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
samhocking said:
I make concrete for a living, was a computer programmer for 10 years before that. Raced bikes for 30 years and make an annual pilgrimage to a Grand Tour or World Champs every other year for the last 35. You're deluded if you think I would do all this under my real name and not a pseudonym if paid to write anything here. You can find me here on facebook, on youtube on twitter blardyblah all under my birth name. Says a lot that even my presence here results in you thinking i'm paid by Sky to not believe you, but then this whole clinic is essentially built on conspiracy, so perhaps should be assumed lol.

Here's me out on my bike in 1988/9 6th from the left.
The delusion is believing pros are not using motors. A French TV station is not going to waste scarce resources chasing shadows. They may have had to cut a lot of the information out due to lawyers, but you can sure the producers know that motor use is going on. That the French police were getting involved again is proof that it is going on. Again no one is going to waste time and valuable resources chasing shadows. It is only a matter of time till this comes out, it always does.

Your arguments against motors is based on Varjas, not the evidence presented. He is merely the messenger an you keep shooting at him. Try looking at the evidence. If Froome is not using a motor then his racing style is one never witnessed before and he is a cycling pharmacy where the drugs kick in with the power of thought!!!!
I'll ask you again - Why would French Police be interested in motors in bikes ? It's not against the law - It seems like a misplacing of priorities by French police ?
 
Feb 21, 2017
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Re: Re:

Parker said:
ScienceIsCool said:
Well it's good thing that Greg said no such thing! The quote was: "'Cycling weight is everything. Your body, your bike. If your bike weighs a kilo more, you would never race on it.''

Note that we have no context, and can not infer that he was including TT bikes. I believe the context was that one should weigh the wheels, because nobody would race on heavy equipment when light is available. Clearly, people use heavier disc wheels when it is appropriate. Clearly, Greg was not saying that people do not use disc wheels in a TT.

John Swanson
Transcript from 60 minutes (as previously posted by ontheroad):

In the 2015 Tour de France, bikes in the peloton were weighed before one of the time trial stages. French authorities told us the British Team Sky was the only team with bikes heavier than the rest—each bike weighed about 800 grams more. A spokesman for Team Sky said that during a time trial stage bikes might be heavier to allow for better aerodynamic performance. He said the team has never used mechanical assistance and that the bikes were checked and cleared by the sports governing body.

A heavy bike doesn't prove anything on its own but to Greg LeMond the weight difference should have set off alarm bells. In this case, sources told us, the sport's governing body would not allow French investigators to remove the Team Sky wheels and weigh them separately to determine if the wheels were enhanced. LeMond said not enough is being done by the International Cycling Union to prevent cheating with motors.


LeMnd's comments about a weight difference setting off alarm bells is directly referring a weighing before a time trial stage. There's your context. I'm not inferring anything. 60 minutes is stating it.
You do realize they said "bikes in the peloton". Did it occur to you that they might have checked the road bikes on the day they weren't being used?
 
Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

samhocking said:
Yes, but not using the principle of a series wound DC Starter Motor principle Freddy was saying could work where half of it is in the rim and half in the frame (surely the frame would have to within 1mm of the rim for this to even work, not to mention there's only the seat stay and chain stay to put all this). Also speed falls rapidly with the increase in load in this type of motor, so it is really not suitable for constant speed application like riding a bike and adjustable speed control wirelessly or based on cardiac stress Varjas claims they are controlled by. I guess speed controllers could be feasible, I have no idea, but with decrease in speed, torque of the motor decreases sharply too so seems simply the wrong application in a bicycle of variable speed up and down variious terrain and speeds required. Miniaturising all this to create the claimed choice of 30 to 3000 watts Varjas claims is possible in the video seems far-fetched to me.
Again, you are misquoting the application. Firstly you ridiculed the idea of a d.c. motor based on fields without permanent magnets and then later you stated a em field motor could not run on d.c and so I gave you the classic application of just such a motor.

I did not say hook a car starter motor up to a bike. You need to re-read my far earlier post and see what I did explain.

At the rim, say around 40 km/hr is just under 12 m/s so as power equals force x velocity, even as little an average of say 2.5 N of switched attraction/repulsion or say 1.25 N to each of a pair passing through the forks would give 30W. 1.25 N is about equal to 4 1/2 ounces. or 2 1/8 ounces to/from each magnet in each stay to each magnet in the rim. Get a pair of those good permanent magnets and hold them 1 cm from each other. I think you will find they are generating far more force than that needed to lift just over 2 ounces of mass. That is a force per magnet that is around 60 % of that needed to lift an envelope at the minimum weight category for an inland Royal Mail letter. At slower speeds, to get the same power output the force would have to increase. What the hell, increase it by 66% up to the limit of a minimum weight category letter in the UK mail. All you need is electronics to radio link the matched switching. (Edit don't radio link - simply switch as the rate of change of back emf causes the coil current to change at a certain rate.) I will happily make way for an expert in this field to advise more detail and ideas of practical feasability.
 
Re: Re:

ontheroad said:
DanielSong39 said:
Parker said:
ScienceIsCool said:
Parker said:
Why didn't these thermal guns find any motors then? After all many on this forum, including you, are absolutely sure motors were being used, yet these thermal guns seem just as bad at finding them as the scanners are?
Thermal cameras have many drawbacks:
I know.

I'm not claiming they are the answer. (I don't even think there's a problem which needs an answer)
There's always the option of accepting that motors are part of bike racing and enjoying the sport for what it is. If you don't have a problem with that, that's AOK.
Exactly. It's the totally defensive 'see no evil, dismiss at all costs' approach that is bizarre without some sort of an agenda. Taking oneself into the clinic to constantly seek out reasons to dismiss motors is peculiar. If you don't think there are motors fine, go and enjoy the sport and stop posting in here, otherwise you are only running the risk of looking like a fool when the story eventually blows up completely.
While I get the impulse, the stench of quashing opposing opinion is strong here. I say folks ignore or debate poor arguments.
 
Re: Re:

GraftPunk said:
You do realize they said "bikes in the peloton". Did it occur to you that they might have checked the road bikes on the day they weren't being used?
No it didn't. Because, why would they be weighing bikes that weren't going to be used that day? And why would teams turn up to the start of a time trial with road bikes anyway
 
May 26, 2010
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Re: Re:

yaco said:
Benotti69 said:
samhocking said:
I make concrete for a living, was a computer programmer for 10 years before that. Raced bikes for 30 years and make an annual pilgrimage to a Grand Tour or World Champs every other year for the last 35. You're deluded if you think I would do all this under my real name and not a pseudonym if paid to write anything here. You can find me here on facebook, on youtube on twitter blardyblah all under my birth name. Says a lot that even my presence here results in you thinking i'm paid by Sky to not believe you, but then this whole clinic is essentially built on conspiracy, so perhaps should be assumed lol.

Here's me out on my bike in 1988/9 6th from the left.
The delusion is believing pros are not using motors. A French TV station is not going to waste scarce resources chasing shadows. They may have had to cut a lot of the information out due to lawyers, but you can sure the producers know that motor use is going on. That the French police were getting involved again is proof that it is going on. Again no one is going to waste time and valuable resources chasing shadows. It is only a matter of time till this comes out, it always does.

Your arguments against motors is based on Varjas, not the evidence presented. He is merely the messenger an you keep shooting at him. Try looking at the evidence. If Froome is not using a motor then his racing style is one never witnessed before and he is a cycling pharmacy where the drugs kick in with the power of thought!!!!
I'll ask you again - Why would French Police be interested in motors in bikes ? It's not against the law - It seems like a misplacing of priorities by French police ?
It is against French law.

Edit: my apologies, the government will submit a report on the criminalisation of technological fraud plus an increase in the power of the French anti-doping agency in this area before December 31 2017.

That may be why Froome is winning La Vuelta because next year it will be criminalised to use motors.
 
May 26, 2010
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Re: Re:

CTQ said:
so Stannard is racing with a kind of flag in his back
Or that is a fan wearing a Colombian flag walking at the side of the road obscured by Standard. Not usre why Stannard would wear a Colombian flag.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
Parker said:
ontheroad said:
Look who his source for this information is. It's Varjas again
Quote: "When you see that in 2010 some very famous riders carried their bikes in their hotel room and slept next to them, you ask a lot of questions because it is neither the purpose, nor the practice, in our profession.” <--Varjas was probably not his source on that one, or any of the other fantastic, juicy bits of info in the article. Or did you just see the name Varjas and stop reading?

John Swanson
Definitely called out Cancellara with that one.
 
Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Freddythefrog said:
samhocking said:
Yes, but not using the principle of a series wound DC Starter Motor principle Freddy was saying could work where half of it is in the rim and half in the frame (surely the frame would have to within 1mm of the rim for this to even work, not to mention there's only the seat stay and chain stay to put all this). Also speed falls rapidly with the increase in load in this type of motor, so it is really not suitable for constant speed application like riding a bike and adjustable speed control wirelessly or based on cardiac stress Varjas claims they are controlled by. I guess speed controllers could be feasible, I have no idea, but with decrease in speed, torque of the motor decreases sharply too so seems simply the wrong application in a bicycle of variable speed up and down variious terrain and speeds required. Miniaturising all this to create the claimed choice of 30 to 3000 watts Varjas claims is possible in the video seems far-fetched to me.
Again, you are misquoting the application. Firstly you ridiculed the idea of a d.c. motor based on fields without permanent magnets and then later you stated a em field motor could not run on d.c and so I gave you the classic application of just such a motor.

I did not say hook a car starter motor up to a bike. You need to re-read my far earlier post and see what I did explain.

At the rim, say around 40 km/hr is just under 12 m/s so as power equals force x velocity, even as little an average of say 2.5 N of switched attraction/repulsion or say 1.25 N to each of a pair passing through the forks would give 30W. 1.25 N is about equal to 4 1/2 ounces. or 2 1/8 ounces to/from each magnet in each stay to each magnet in the rim. Get a pair of those good permanent magnets and hold them 1 cm from each other. I think you will find they are generating far more force than that needed to lift just over 2 ounces of mass. That is a force per magnet that is around 60 % of that needed to lift an envelope at the minimum weight category for an inland Royal Mail letter. At slower speeds, to get the same power output the force would have to increase. What the hell, increase it by 66% up to the limit of a minimum weight category letter in the UK mail. All you need is electronics to radio link the matched switching - meat and drink to your current electronic engineer undergrad. (Edit don't radio link - simply switch as the rate of change of back emf causes the coil current to change at a certain rate.)
OK, so are youre now basically describing a Bedini-type motor, but one with usable torque to drive a rider and wheel, ie a high torque pulsed rotational wheel similar to the one Varjas describes, but the specialist permanent magnets in the rim Varjas claims he uses are replaced with electromagnets driven by a, another battery too? I've not really looked much into Bedini wheels, certainly not in the context of it being like a starter motor in a car anyway.
 
Re: Re:

El Pistolero said:
ScienceIsCool said:
Parker said:
ontheroad said:
Look who his source for this information is. It's Varjas again
Quote: "When you see that in 2010 some very famous riders carried their bikes in their hotel room and slept next to them, you ask a lot of questions because it is neither the purpose, nor the practice, in our profession.” <--Varjas was probably not his source on that one, or any of the other fantastic, juicy bits of info in the article. Or did you just see the name Varjas and stop reading?

John Swanson
Definitely called out Cancellara with that one.
Around that time there was a gang of bike thieves targeting pro teams.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/bike-thieves-caught-in-austria-after-stealing-amore-e-vita-race-bikes/
 
Jul 5, 2009
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Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

samhocking said:
OK, so are youre now basically describing a Bedini-type motor, but one with usable torque to drive a rider and wheel, ie a high torque pulsed rotational wheel similar to the one Varjas describes, but the specialist permanent magnets in the rim Varjas claims he uses are replaced with electromagnets driven by a, another battery too? I've not really looked much into Bedini wheels, certainly not in the context of it being like a starter motor in a car anyway.
Okay. So physics isn't currently your thing, but you are obviously enthusiastic. I just have to say that you might want to brush up on this. Lots of places to start, like Wikipedia as an obvious one. My most sincere recommendation, though, is the Feynman series of lectures which have recently become available online for free. You obviously have a good mind and a grasp for the fundamentals, but I'm sorry. Your arguments just don't stack up. With a bit of a nudge, you could be a force to be reckoned with.

John Swanson
 
Re: Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
Parker said:
You're saying that Cancellara slept with his bike because Amore e Vita had their van robbed? ...okay That might not be the best theory you've come up with.

John Swanson
Where was Cancellara mentioned by the person who said this? You've added Cancellara. I've certainly heard of mechanics taking bikes into their rooms for security reasons
 
May 26, 2010
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Parker said:
ScienceIsCool said:
Parker said:
You're saying that Cancellara slept with his bike because Amore e Vita had their van robbed? ...okay That might not be the best theory you've come up with.

John Swanson
Where was Cancellara mentioned by the person who said this? You've added Cancellara. I certainly heard of mechanics taking bikes into their rooms for security reasons
Riders were on their bikes on trainers at night in hotel rooms in the mid 90s due to risk of blood thickening from EPO and possible death in their sleep.
 
Re: Re:

Benotti69 said:
Parker said:
ScienceIsCool said:
Parker said:
You're saying that Cancellara slept with his bike because Amore e Vita had their van robbed? ...okay That might not be the best theory you've come up with.

John Swanson
Where was Cancellara mentioned by the person who said this? You've added Cancellara. I certainly heard of mechanics taking bikes into their rooms for security reasons
Riders were on their bikes on trainers at night in hotel rooms in the mid 90s due to risk of blood thickening from EPO and possible death in their sleep.
I know. I've not heard of anyone doing that since the 90s though.
 
Re: Re:

Parker said:
ScienceIsCool said:
Parker said:
You're saying that Cancellara slept with his bike because Amore e Vita had their van robbed? ...okay That might not be the best theory you've come up with.

John Swanson
Where was Cancellara mentioned by the person who said this? You've added Cancellara. I've certainly heard of mechanics taking bikes into their rooms for security reasons
Yes of course, imagine a thief getting his hands on a bike and then discovering it had a motor.
 
Jul 5, 2009
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Re: Re:

Parker said:
ScienceIsCool said:
Parker said:
You're saying that Cancellara slept with his bike because Amore e Vita had their van robbed? ...okay That might not be the best theory you've come up with.

John Swanson
Where was Cancellara mentioned by the person who said this? You've added Cancellara. I've certainly heard of mechanics taking bikes into their rooms for security reasons
Eh. You conflated a single theft from a van with all pros sleeping with their bikes. A bit ludicrous, don't you think? There's *probably* a few layers of security that management would undertake before the "must sleep with bikes" scenario.

John Swanson

John Swanson
 

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