Motor doping thread

[Craigee]

Re: Re:

Two types of comments I'm seeing in this thread:

- Clutching at straws; anything and everything is proof of motor use
- Strawman arguments; if you can't build or explain the racing motor currently being used in the modern peloton; they don't exist

Maybe the truth is something like, "Motor use is very probable but we don't know exactly what they are like".

Hardly a strawman argument if one of the inventors can't show what he claims he invented and what he does show is no different than what I can buy from any ebike company that would see me banned if used as a pro rider?

You can't buy F1 tech yet. It takes a while to trickle down. Pros won't be using off the shelf stuff.

Remember the Cervelo's TeamGb used at Rio, all supposedly broken! Not one frame left.

Benotti69. I would appreciate it if you could point me to a link for the TeamGB Cervelo bikes from Rio that are now broken. I believe they were up to something with all the personal best times. Thank You. Craig

 

[samhocking]

No other manufacture is on a TV show claiming riders are using their products, so not sure who else you can focus on other than the man that says he invented all this back in Armstrong's days?

Essentially you're saying Varjas is happy for his magic wheels and technology to be filmed live racing all over Europe for hundreds of hours and broadcast all around the globe to millions of people to witness working, yet he is not wanting to show exactly the same thing on TV himself to a TV documentary claiming they are also used in those races because the technology hasn't yet trickled down to consumers yet? WTF Dude?

 

[ontheroad]

Re: Re:

Stop focusing solely on Varjas.

But he's the sole source for this story. It's like anti-vaxxers saying 'Stop focusing on Andrew Wakefield'

No he's not. There are several other public comments made by others as referred to earlier which you continue to ignore. Perhaps you will begin to attack their personal credentials also instead of focussing on what they have actually said. And stop coming up with useless analogies, which bear no relevance.

The continual absolute certainty that you appear to hold that motor's do not exist are making me believe that you have some vested interest in this area. Do you?

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Stop focusing solely on Varjas.

But he's the sole source for this story. It's like anti-vaxxers saying 'Stop focusing on Andrew Wakefield'

Yeah Walsh for years was the sole source for Armstrongs doping.

 

[ngent41]

Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

new orbea ebike out with a pretty stealthy looking hub motor...

http://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/article/orbea-gain-e-bikes-dont-look-like-e-bikes-50761/

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

More deflection. So you've gone from atatcking Varjas to attacking Lappartient now. How about dealing with what bit of his proposals you actually disagree with and answer the previous questions which you have ignored. Is he now a snake oil salesman (insert other suitable adjective) too?

I'm not attacking Lappartient. He can do as he pleases. If he wants to spend big money on big machines - fine. My point is, and always has been, is that he's only made a big fuss about it since running for election. He's had four years to do something and hasn't, which suggests to be me he doesn't believe it's a real problem and it's just an electioneering gambit. If he gets elected (more likely 2021 than 2017) I bet he does sod all about it.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

More deflection. So you've gone from atatcking Varjas to attacking Lappartient now. How about dealing with what bit of his proposals you actually disagree with and answer the previous questions which you have ignored. Is he now a snake oil salesman (insert other suitable adjective) too?

I'm not attacking Lappartient. He can do as he pleases. If he wants to spend big money on big machines - fine. My point is, and always has been, is that he's only made a big fuss about it since running for election. He's had four years to do something and hasn't, which suggests to be me he doesn't believe it's a real problem and it's just an electioneering gambit. If he gets elected (more likely 2021 than 2017) I bet he does sod all about it.

As I pointed as this is not true. Lappartient is the one who forced Cookosn's hand with ASO on the use of thermal cameras in the Tour in 2016.

You appear to ignore the aspects you don't like and make up the rest.

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

Stop focusing solely on Varjas.

But he's the sole source for this story. It's like anti-vaxxers saying 'Stop focusing on Andrew Wakefield'

No he's not. There are several other public comments made by others as referred to earlier which you continue to ignore.

Name one other person that has said that he has first hand knowledge that motors have been used in the pro peloton

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

No other manufacture is on a TV show claiming riders are using their products, so not sure who else you can focus on other than the man that says he invented all this back in Armstrong's days?

Essentially you're saying Varjas is happy for his magic wheels and technology to be filmed live racing all over Europe for hundreds of hours and broadcast all around the globe to millions of people to witness working, yet he is not wanting to show exactly the same thing on TV himself to a TV documentary claiming they are also used in those races because the technology hasn't yet trickled down to consumers yet? WTF Dude?

If you are looking to Varjas as the sole source for motors and remember he has been touting this story for a while without being sued, he has cred. If he had no cred, then he would not be getting the limelight and this story would have died with the laughter of the sport. Again i repeat, no one will listen to Varjas unless he can back it up and they also can back up what he is saying from other independent sources. Just because those sources are still anonymous is not important.

My guess is Varjas no longer supplies pro teams and is setting himself up to sell to others and using the publicity to drum up business. If Varjas was dealing with pro teams he would not be on TV.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Stop focusing solely on Varjas.

But he's the sole source for this story. It's like anti-vaxxers saying 'Stop focusing on Andrew Wakefield'

No he's not. There are several other public comments made by others as referred to earlier which you continue to ignore.

Name one other person that has said that he has first hand knowledge that motors have been used in the pro peloton

“No one knows exactly how widespread this problem is, but it is very serious. The words of ASO director Christian Prudhomme are important. He said that greater efforts must be made to tackle this problem.”

“Our information is that this is a very real possibility. We don’t have any firm evidence but we are absolutely aware that these products are out there and that it is a possibility,” Brian Cookson told CyclingTips in an exclusive interview conducted on Thursday.

These people think this is serious and a real possibility, but you guys don't.

Remember a pro cyclist was caught using a motor. Most CXers race road during the CX off season.

A grandfondo rider was caught and claimed he bought the bike of a pro.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Two types of comments I'm seeing in this thread:

- Clutching at straws; anything and everything is proof of motor use
- Strawman arguments; if you can't build or explain the racing motor currently being used in the modern peloton; they don't exist

Maybe the truth is something like, "Motor use is very probable but we don't know exactly what they are like".

Hardly a strawman argument if one of the inventors can't show what he claims he invented and what he does show is no different than what I can buy from any ebike company that would see me banned if used as a pro rider?

You can't buy F1 tech yet. It takes a while to trickle down. Pros won't be using off the shelf stuff.

Remember the Cervelo's TeamGb used at Rio, all supposedly broken! Not one frame left.

Benotti69. I would appreciate it if you could point me to a link for the TeamGB Cervelo bikes from Rio that are now broken. I believe they were up to something with all the personal best times. Thank You. Craig

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/other-sports/team-gbs-brilliant-but-broken-bikes-mean-riders-will-be-on-old-frames-at-world-championships-a3504616.html

http://road.cc/content/news/220200-team-gb-race-old-bikes-after-all-cervélo-rio-models-break

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-4366064/GB-ride-13-year-old-bikes-Track-World-Championships.html

 

[Benotti69]

I am also of the opinion that Sky released the video of Ag2R riders hanging onto cars to deflect from the motors story. A pot shot at the French.

 

[ontheroad]

Re: Re:

More deflection. So you've gone from atatcking Varjas to attacking Lappartient now. How about dealing with what bit of his proposals you actually disagree with and answer the previous questions which you have ignored. Is he now a snake oil salesman (insert other suitable adjective) too?

I'm not attacking Lappartient. He can do as he pleases. If he wants to spend big money on big machines - fine. My point is, and always has been, is that he's only made a big fuss about it since running for election. He's had four years to do something and hasn't, which suggests to be me he doesn't believe it's a real problem and it's just an electioneering gambit. If he gets elected (more likely 2021 than 2017) I bet he does sod all about it.

Weighing the bikes, dismantling the bikes do not require big money and the UCI is a cash rich organisation. If cost is a detterent against introducing the check's then maybe anti-doping should be scaled back also. Surely for the viewpoint of the governing body, the entire integrity of the sport is more important than any potential cost in any case.

It could well be electioneering, but you haven't pointed out what part of his actual proposals you disagree with.

 

[Parker]

Re:

I am also of the opinion that Sky released the video of Ag2R riders hanging onto cars to deflect from the motors story. A pot shot at the French.

It was remarkably obliging of the Ag2R riders to hang on to the car for them then.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I am also of the opinion that Sky released the video of Ag2R riders hanging onto cars to deflect from the motors story. A pot shot at the French.

It was remarkably obliging of the Ag2R riders to hang on to the car for them then.

A common part of the grupetto is holding onto cars. That Sky showed French riders doing it led to me that thought.

I have seen all teams riders hanging onto cars at Giro stages. Nothing new. Sky choosing to release a video of it is well timed.

https://twitter.com/Digger_forum/status/905437356123197440

Oh look a sky rider showing the same promise as Froome!!!!!

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

I am also of the opinion that Sky released the video of Ag2R riders hanging onto cars to deflect from the motors story. A pot shot at the French.

It was remarkably obliging of the Ag2R riders to hang on to the car for them then.

A common part of the grupetto is holding onto cars. That Sky showed French riders doing it led to me that thought.

I have seen all teams riders hanging onto cars at Giro stages. Nothing new. Sky choosing to release a video of it is well timed.

https://twitter.com/Digger_forum/status/905437356123197440

Oh look a sky rider showing the same promise as Froome!!!!!

Oh look, here's one of the replies to that tweet (from a poster on here I believe)

FWIW I saw several of these pictures and it was apparently after the Xorret del Catí finish on the way to bus area.

 

[ontheroad]

Re: Re:

Stop focusing solely on Varjas.

But he's the sole source for this story. It's like anti-vaxxers saying 'Stop focusing on Andrew Wakefield'

No he's not. There are several other public comments made by others as referred to earlier which you continue to ignore.

Name one other person that has said that he has first hand knowledge that motors have been used in the pro peloton

Here's one for now. Former 3 time tour winner Greg Lemond:


''Cycling weight is everything. Your body, your bike. If your bike weighs a kilo more, you would never race on it.''

In the 2015 Tour de France, bikes in the peloton were weighed before one of the time trial stages. French authorities told us the British Team Sky was the only team with bikes heavier than the rest—each bike weighed about 800 grams more. A spokesman for Team Sky said that during a time trial stage bikes might be heavier to allow for better aerodynamic performance. He said the team has never used mechanical assistance and that the bikes were checked and cleared by the sports governing body.

A heavy bike doesn’t prove anything on its own but to Greg LeMond the weight difference should have set off alarm bells. In this case, sources told us, the sport’s governing body would not allow French investigators to remove the Team Sky wheels and weigh them separately to determine if the wheels were enhanced. LeMond said not enough is being done by the International Cycling Union to prevent cheating with motors.

''This is curable. This is fixable. I don’t trust it until they figure out how to take the motor out. I won’t trust any victories of the Tour de France.''

If Lemond doesn't trust any victories of the tour then that's good enough for me. I'm not going to believe some anonymous armchair fan on an internet forum with a vested interest and an affiliation to team sky over a man with his finger on the pulse who has spoken to people on the inside including the police.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I am also of the opinion that Sky released the video of Ag2R riders hanging onto cars to deflect from the motors story. A pot shot at the French.

It was remarkably obliging of the Ag2R riders to hang on to the car for them then.

A common part of the grupetto is holding onto cars. That Sky showed French riders doing it led to me that thought.

I have seen all teams riders hanging onto cars at Giro stages. Nothing new. Sky choosing to release a video of it is well timed.

https://twitter.com/Digger_forum/status/905437356123197440

Oh look a sky rider showing the same promise as Froome!!!!!

Oh look, here's one of the replies to that tweet (from a poster on here I believe)

FWIW I saw several of these pictures and it was apparently after the Xorret del Catí finish on the way to bus area.

I saw this happen in races.

You can contact dreamtime, the photo agency and ask them to verify if you want.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

That hardcore Skyfans (or paid interns take your pick) are in this thread trying to dismiss the motors and Varjas(who is one manufacturer, no doubt plenty of others out there) is testament to motor use.

We have been down this road with cheating in the sport of professional cycling. In pro cycling where there is smoke there is fire.

That they fail to explain Sky's dominance, Froome's massive transformation and other tell tale signs of cheating again points to a team cheating. Whether it be motors, PEDs or a combination of both. I go for the latter. Never mind Sky's littany of lies.

Varjas is one motor manufacturer who has been willing to come forward. Yes he looks as dodgy as some claim, but that don't make his claims false.

It has been demonstrated it is possible. 1 professional rider was caught and 1 grandfondo rider was caught. Now this stuff comes from the top down, not grassroots up. Like all latest tech, it is expensive at first, prohibitively so to the average Joe, but as more comes on stream the older stuff gets flogged off etc etc...

To deny motor use in pro cycling is to deny they are on 2 wheels.

I can only speak for myself, but I'm not saying that Sky or any other team wouldn't try using magic motors, I am saying that the magic motor don't exist YET. A downtube/BB motor has been used (and we can buy one), but no other RACEABLE model has been shown. Just answer one simple question: how do you get a skewer through the hub motor that Stade has shown? I've asked that several times, but no one wants to answer...

Maybe I'm misunderstanding your argument, and you are saying that the DT/BB motor is still being used in the platoon.

Take a look at the video again. Varjas didn't want to show off the bubble-wrapped pro, labelled version, as used by one of the teams, but the Fraunhofer team did clearly show an x-ray of a hub motor that was placed at the freehub body. I'm sure you could imagine modifying a cassette and freehub body to contain the motor as shown. Electronics and battery would be in the frame. The claimed 40 Watts for 30 minutes is only two or three of these: http://www.molicel.com/hq/download/DM/DM_INR18650A-V3-80078.pdf The connections to the motor would be via ring contacts (or similar) at the dropout and axle.

I'm sure a room full of mechanical engineers could come up with plenty of design solutions of how to couple the motor or how to place it in a custom freehub body and casette module. I've already shown with off the shelf part specs that it's possible to get the required power out of a stepper motor with a similar volume. And yes, you would use a stepper motor because that way you don't need any gear reductions. Steppers have the highest torque at the lowest (i.e., normal bicycle wheel) rpm.

In other words, there's no skewer problem.

John Swanson

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Re:

Why didn't these thermal guns find any motors then? After all many on this forum, including you, are absolutely sure motors were being used, yet these thermal guns seem just as bad at finding them as the scanners are?

Thermal cameras have many drawbacks:

- It's obvious when they're in use, so when you see one rocking up on a race moto, shut off your motor
- They can only detect heat, so the motor must be in use to have any chance of detection
- There's an issue of protocol. If you see a weird heat signature, how do proceed? Stop the rider, confiscate their bike and ruin their race? What if you're wrong... Oops!
- Let's say you flag a rider for further inspection after the race. They still have puh-lenty of opportunity to switch bikes and get rid of the motorized version.
- How do you set a threshold of "too much heat"? Is it five degrees? Six degrees? 12 degrees?

And so on. However, it does have a deterrent affect much like seeing a police officer holding what looks to be a radar gun. It would also be hugely valuable to use not for enforcement, but intelligence gathering. You could try to discreetly follow the Tour with heat guns and try to get an idea of how many are in use.

John Swanson

 

[DanielSong39]

Vroom, Vroom, Froome!

Hold on guys, you're about to see a live demonstration.

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

Here's one for now. Former 3 time tour winner Greg Lemond:


''Cycling weight is everything. Your body, your bike. If your bike weighs a kilo more, you would never race on it.''

In the 2015 Tour de France, bikes in the peloton were weighed before one of the time trial stages. French authorities told us the British Team Sky was the only team with bikes heavier than the rest—each bike weighed about 800 grams more. A spokesman for Team Sky said that during a time trial stage bikes might be heavier to allow for better aerodynamic performance. He said the team has never used mechanical assistance and that the bikes were checked and cleared by the sports governing body.

Pop along to the GCN channel YouTube. They do videos about pro bikes which often includes weighing them. All the TT bikes are overweight.

For example:

Dumoulin 9.03kg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kP17D0Cndd8
Froome 8.52kg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bc3zV4fTRGM
Castroviejo 8.29kg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRUGxMj-iko

So Dumoulin's is 800g heavier than Castroviejo's. Maybe Dumoulin is the one with the motor

 

[Parker]

Re: Re:

Why didn't these thermal guns find any motors then? After all many on this forum, including you, are absolutely sure motors were being used, yet these thermal guns seem just as bad at finding them as the scanners are?

Thermal cameras have many drawbacks:

I know.

I'm not claiming they are the answer. (I don't even think there's a problem which needs an answer)

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Why didn't these thermal guns find any motors then? After all many on this forum, including you, are absolutely sure motors were being used, yet these thermal guns seem just as bad at finding them as the scanners are?

Thermal cameras have many drawbacks:

I know.

I'm not claiming they are the answer. (I don't even think there's a problem which needs an answer)

Then stop posting in the thread.....

Plenty do and plenty with lots of credibility do, never mind those with none.

ASO think it is serious.

 

[DanielSong39]

Re: Re:

Why didn't these thermal guns find any motors then? After all many on this forum, including you, are absolutely sure motors were being used, yet these thermal guns seem just as bad at finding them as the scanners are?

Thermal cameras have many drawbacks:

I know.

I'm not claiming they are the answer. (I don't even think there's a problem which needs an answer)

There's always the option of accepting that motors are part of bike racing and enjoying the sport for what it is. If you don't have a problem with that, that's AOK.