From Cyclingnews live commentary:
"Froome's eyes are glued to his stem, but his battery seems flat."
You win some, you lose some.
"Froome's eyes are glued to his stem, but his battery seems flat."
You win some, you lose some.
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Re: Re:
Exactly. It's the totally defensive 'see no evil, dismiss at all costs' approach that is bizarre without some sort of an agenda. Taking oneself into the clinic to constantly seek out reasons to dismiss motors is peculiar. If you don't think there are motors fine, go and enjoy the sport and stop posting in here, otherwise you are only running the risk of looking like a fool when the story eventually blows up completely.
DanielSong39 said:
Exactly. It's the totally defensive 'see no evil, dismiss at all costs' approach that is bizarre without some sort of an agenda. Taking oneself into the clinic to constantly seek out reasons to dismiss motors is peculiar. If you don't think there are motors fine, go and enjoy the sport and stop posting in here, otherwise you are only running the risk of looking like a fool when the story eventually blows up completely.
Re: Re:
That's fine but you edited my post to remove the main part of the excerpt from that article which was Lemond's actual opinion on the use of motor's. He said that he won't trust any tour winners until they figure out a way to adequately detect for motors. Why would the poster on an internet forum be more credible than a 3 time tour winner who has spoken to insiders including the police.
Parker said:
That's fine but you edited my post to remove the main part of the excerpt from that article which was Lemond's actual opinion on the use of motor's. He said that he won't trust any tour winners until they figure out a way to adequately detect for motors. Why would the poster on an internet forum be more credible than a 3 time tour winner who has spoken to insiders including the police.
thehog
BANNED
Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught
It's clear the motor devices don't work as well on very steep inclines, can't generate enough raw power
It's clear the motor devices don't work as well on very steep inclines, can't generate enough raw power
Re: Re:
Thanks Benotti69.
So convenient for ALL the Rio bikes to be broken. It says Kenny broke 5 bikes. Lucky he didn't break any at the Olympics and you'd think that it would be hard to have the confidence to put out full power when you've broken 5 bikes already. No worries for him though.
They make no secret that it was all about keeping these bikes secret for Rio but also the next model secret leading into Tokyo but what the hell happened to the UCI rule that the bikes used have to be available in shops for the public?
Benotti69 said:
Thanks Benotti69.
So convenient for ALL the Rio bikes to be broken. It says Kenny broke 5 bikes. Lucky he didn't break any at the Olympics and you'd think that it would be hard to have the confidence to put out full power when you've broken 5 bikes already. No worries for him though.
They make no secret that it was all about keeping these bikes secret for Rio but also the next model secret leading into Tokyo but what the hell happened to the UCI rule that the bikes used have to be available in shops for the public?
Re: Re:
Because LeMond was wrong and I have shown why. He says 'weight is everything' and that an extra '800g' in a time trial bike rings alarm bells. But I have shown three bikes belonging to three top time triallists, weighed by others. The lightest of which is 1.5kg over the minimum weight and they vary by 800g. Clearly weight isn't everything.ontheroad said:
Re: Re:
I think you have finally convinced me that there are no motors in use then! I'll take the word of a sky intern over a 3 time tour winner who has spoken to several insiders on this matter and made an informed opinion so!
Parker said:
I think you have finally convinced me that there are no motors in use then! I'll take the word of a sky intern over a 3 time tour winner who has spoken to several insiders on this matter and made an informed opinion so!
Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught
Sam I feel for you and your level of understanding. I was very specific. I said there was no need for permanent magnets.
Last year 72 million cars were produced. The magnetic field required by the starter motor to enable it to be of a sufficiently small size given its very large power output, is such that using permanent magents is not practical. Coils are used to create a temporary magentic field that would otherwise be generated by a larger permanent magnet.
There are no permanent magnets in the 72 million starter motors produced last year, just coils creating electro-magnets. When the current is turned off, they are lose their magnetism. Now they do use iron as the soft magnetic core, transporting the field to where it is most effective. Iron - like that in the bolt on the seat clamp could be detected. but who is to say they are not using the new modern plastic electro-magnetic materials such as those used in pacemakers, computer disc drives and cochlear implants.
The point was the ipad could detect electric motors if used corrrectly, not every motor but enough. The Commissaires are not doing so. We don't know how many of Femke's fellow competitors at the World Champs had to report her before the UCI actually did something, but contemporary reports tended to indicate it was multiple, with a growing sense of frustration suggesting the UCI were reluctant to act. Surely they should have been leaping out of their skin at the first suggestion, if they actually wanted to catch someone. And who was caught ? UKAD get plenty of flak for busting nobodies.
samhocking said:
Sam I feel for you and your level of understanding. I was very specific. I said there was no need for permanent magnets.
Last year 72 million cars were produced. The magnetic field required by the starter motor to enable it to be of a sufficiently small size given its very large power output, is such that using permanent magents is not practical. Coils are used to create a temporary magentic field that would otherwise be generated by a larger permanent magnet.
There are no permanent magnets in the 72 million starter motors produced last year, just coils creating electro-magnets. When the current is turned off, they are lose their magnetism. Now they do use iron as the soft magnetic core, transporting the field to where it is most effective. Iron - like that in the bolt on the seat clamp could be detected. but who is to say they are not using the new modern plastic electro-magnetic materials such as those used in pacemakers, computer disc drives and cochlear implants.
The point was the ipad could detect electric motors if used corrrectly, not every motor but enough. The Commissaires are not doing so. We don't know how many of Femke's fellow competitors at the World Champs had to report her before the UCI actually did something, but contemporary reports tended to indicate it was multiple, with a growing sense of frustration suggesting the UCI were reluctant to act. Surely they should have been leaping out of their skin at the first suggestion, if they actually wanted to catch someone. And who was caught ? UKAD get plenty of flak for busting nobodies.
Re: Re:
Maybe he knows more than Canyon, Giant and Pinarello do about TT tech.
I'm not giving you my word. I'm showing video evidence that shows he is wrong when he says 'weight is everything' in TT bikes. And that an extra 800g is nothing to be alarmed about.ontheroad said:
Maybe he knows more than Canyon, Giant and Pinarello do about TT tech.
Re: Re:
Boardman gave us one hell of a warning. Or is he like the Lemonds, another one without an engineering degree, who believes that the moon landings were fake ?Parker said:
Then there was Philippe Gilbert's agent Vincent Wathelet also, is he deluded as well?
https://cyclingtips.com/2016/04/gilberts-agent-there-is-evidence-that-motors-have-been-in-the-peloton-since-before-2010/
https://cyclingtips.com/2016/04/gilberts-agent-there-is-evidence-that-motors-have-been-in-the-peloton-since-before-2010/
Re: Re:
Well it's good thing that Greg said no such thing! The quote was: "'Cycling weight is everything. Your body, your bike. If your bike weighs a kilo more, you would never race on it.''
Note that we have no context, and can not infer that he was including TT bikes. I believe the context was that one should weigh the wheels, because nobody would race on heavy equipment when light is available. Clearly, people use heavier disc wheels when it is appropriate. Clearly, Greg was not saying that people do not use disc wheels in a TT.
John Swanson
Parker said:
Well it's good thing that Greg said no such thing! The quote was: "'Cycling weight is everything. Your body, your bike. If your bike weighs a kilo more, you would never race on it.''
Note that we have no context, and can not infer that he was including TT bikes. I believe the context was that one should weigh the wheels, because nobody would race on heavy equipment when light is available. Clearly, people use heavier disc wheels when it is appropriate. Clearly, Greg was not saying that people do not use disc wheels in a TT.
John Swanson
Re: Re:
John Swanson
Quote: "When you see that in 2010 some very famous riders carried their bikes in their hotel room and slept next to them, you ask a lot of questions because it is neither the purpose, nor the practice, in our profession.” <--Varjas was probably not his source on that one, or any of the other fantastic, juicy bits of info in the article. Or did you just see the name Varjas and stop reading?Parker said:
John Swanson
Re: Re:
No the Clinic is the place to "discuss" doping issues. You can't impose groupthink. Since motors are a contentious topic right now, but not a single one has been found in the pro peloton, it's perfectly reasonable to debate why that might be, including the logical answer that there aren't any.
ontheroad said:
No the Clinic is the place to "discuss" doping issues. You can't impose groupthink. Since motors are a contentious topic right now, but not a single one has been found in the pro peloton, it's perfectly reasonable to debate why that might be, including the logical answer that there aren't any.
Re: Re:
In the 2015 Tour de France, bikes in the peloton were weighed before one of the time trial stages. French authorities told us the British Team Sky was the only team with bikes heavier than the rest—each bike weighed about 800 grams more. A spokesman for Team Sky said that during a time trial stage bikes might be heavier to allow for better aerodynamic performance. He said the team has never used mechanical assistance and that the bikes were checked and cleared by the sports governing body.
A heavy bike doesn't prove anything on its own but to Greg LeMond the weight difference should have set off alarm bells. In this case, sources told us, the sport's governing body would not allow French investigators to remove the Team Sky wheels and weigh them separately to determine if the wheels were enhanced. LeMond said not enough is being done by the International Cycling Union to prevent cheating with motors.
LeMnd's comments about a weight difference setting off alarm bells is directly referring a weighing before a time trial stage. There's your context. I'm not inferring anything. 60 minutes is stating it.
Transcript from 60 minutes (as previously posted by ontheroad):ScienceIsCool said:
In the 2015 Tour de France, bikes in the peloton were weighed before one of the time trial stages. French authorities told us the British Team Sky was the only team with bikes heavier than the rest—each bike weighed about 800 grams more. A spokesman for Team Sky said that during a time trial stage bikes might be heavier to allow for better aerodynamic performance. He said the team has never used mechanical assistance and that the bikes were checked and cleared by the sports governing body.
A heavy bike doesn't prove anything on its own but to Greg LeMond the weight difference should have set off alarm bells. In this case, sources told us, the sport's governing body would not allow French investigators to remove the Team Sky wheels and weigh them separately to determine if the wheels were enhanced. LeMond said not enough is being done by the International Cycling Union to prevent cheating with motors.
LeMnd's comments about a weight difference setting off alarm bells is directly referring a weighing before a time trial stage. There's your context. I'm not inferring anything. 60 minutes is stating it.
Re: Re:
Boardman has only ever said that it's a possibility that the UCI needs to keep and eye on. He's right. It is a possibility. But he has never said they a reality and have actually been used.Freddythefrog said:
Re: Re:
you are welcome
Stinks of motors!!! Every bike broken and no one in the sport batted an eyelid, of course none broken at the oh so important gold winning moment.
That no one questioned this in cycling makes me think that motors are in use across the board!
Craigee said:
you are welcome
Stinks of motors!!! Every bike broken and no one in the sport batted an eyelid, of course none broken at the oh so important gold winning moment.
That no one questioned this in cycling makes me think that motors are in use across the board!
Re: Re:
Boardman.
"There is not a shred of doubt that the technology exists to cheat in this way and that a rider could get a definite return from such cheating. With little buttons controlling the gears these days I suspect it would also be pretty simple to disguise," Boardman said.
"As for detection, the extra weight would be almost negligible as most road racing bikes come in well underweight anyway when scrutinised so you would struggle to identify a cheat that way. The only sure-fire safeguard would be to X-ray every bike before the start of every race or before the start of every stage of every race.
He said this to the UCI in 2009. but of course some here believe that 8 years later and with millions of commercial embikes now on the roads, know way more than Boardman and the technology is not there yet ! Sam doesn't even know how the electric starter motor on his car works and yet considers he has the knowledge to dismiss everything.
Given Boardman's history of comment on PEDs and that he rode through the epo era, his quotes here are of enormous value.
Parker said:
Boardman.
"There is not a shred of doubt that the technology exists to cheat in this way and that a rider could get a definite return from such cheating. With little buttons controlling the gears these days I suspect it would also be pretty simple to disguise," Boardman said.
"As for detection, the extra weight would be almost negligible as most road racing bikes come in well underweight anyway when scrutinised so you would struggle to identify a cheat that way. The only sure-fire safeguard would be to X-ray every bike before the start of every race or before the start of every stage of every race.
He said this to the UCI in 2009. but of course some here believe that 8 years later and with millions of commercial embikes now on the roads, know way more than Boardman and the technology is not there yet ! Sam doesn't even know how the electric starter motor on his car works and yet considers he has the knowledge to dismiss everything.
Given Boardman's history of comment on PEDs and that he rode through the epo era, his quotes here are of enormous value.
Re: Re:
So eight years later where is this technology? As you say e-bikes are millions commercially, yet the inventors seem to only want to sell these super discrete motors to an handful of pros. That makes about as much sense as Amgen selling EPO solely to dopers.Freddythefrog said:
Re: Re:
I am reminded of the quote "never argue with an idiot - he will drag you down to his level and then beat you on expereince".
Parker you just don't read. In the last 24 hours I posted a link to a hidden emotor in a bike commercially avaialble and so did another poster today. The comment above is ridiculous given the availability of high quality commercial product with the motor and battery hidden.Parker said:
I am reminded of the quote "never argue with an idiot - he will drag you down to his level and then beat you on expereince".
Re: Re:
Boardman said there is a possibility of them being used. He did not say they have been used. Which was my original question. Aside from Varjas - name one person who claims to have first hand knowledge of motors being used in the pro peloton. Boardman has not claimed that. My point was always that Varjas is the sole source saying that and he seems to me a very unreliable witness.
Just because something may be possible, it doesn't mean that it has happened.
And that motor will be picked up easily by scanners. As even the Stade 2 programme showed.Freddythefrog said:
Boardman said there is a possibility of them being used. He did not say they have been used. Which was my original question. Aside from Varjas - name one person who claims to have first hand knowledge of motors being used in the pro peloton. Boardman has not claimed that. My point was always that Varjas is the sole source saying that and he seems to me a very unreliable witness.
Just because something may be possible, it doesn't mean that it has happened.
Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught
Induction motors (motors without permanent magnets) can only be run from AC. You can't make an AC battery or DC Induction Motor - basic electrical foundation class Freddy! Maybe they plug the rider in using invisible flex to the national grid around France lol!
Freddythefrog said:
Induction motors (motors without permanent magnets) can only be run from AC. You can't make an AC battery or DC Induction Motor - basic electrical foundation class Freddy! Maybe they plug the rider in using invisible flex to the national grid around France lol!
Re: Re:
Did we watch different videos ? What I saw was that if the ipad was used in a totally different manner to the way the UCI commissaires are using it, the type of motor in those commercial bikes could be detected. Conclusion - the ipad could be of use.
Did you not read what I wrote about Boardman ? Of course he would not name anyone. Can't you recall how he would comment about Lance, Floyd Rasmussen and the rest ?
Let me summarise the case you appear to be arguing for. It is accepted as fact that ebikees, with state of the art hidden electric motors and batteries, of race result changing capability, are available to buy of the shelf and that although there is a detection system available, we have factual evidence that in every single video of the UCI conducting such checks they do it in a way so that it will not catch anyone. The conclusion from these two sets of evidence is that no one in the professional peloton would be so low and so cunning as to actually use one of these bikes;it is just too much to contemplate or, they are all too dull to work out that the UCI tests are uselss, to take advantage of the situation. Even when 3 years ago Greg Lemond advised the method of testing was uselss both the UCI - testers and the teams - possible advantage takers, ignored his comments as those of a raving madman. In fact just one person in the whole wide world in the last 7 years has been so base as to do such an evil thing - that evil, very evil, moto-girl, Femke.
Parker said:
Did we watch different videos ? What I saw was that if the ipad was used in a totally different manner to the way the UCI commissaires are using it, the type of motor in those commercial bikes could be detected. Conclusion - the ipad could be of use.
Did you not read what I wrote about Boardman ? Of course he would not name anyone. Can't you recall how he would comment about Lance, Floyd Rasmussen and the rest ?
Let me summarise the case you appear to be arguing for. It is accepted as fact that ebikees, with state of the art hidden electric motors and batteries, of race result changing capability, are available to buy of the shelf and that although there is a detection system available, we have factual evidence that in every single video of the UCI conducting such checks they do it in a way so that it will not catch anyone. The conclusion from these two sets of evidence is that no one in the professional peloton would be so low and so cunning as to actually use one of these bikes;it is just too much to contemplate or, they are all too dull to work out that the UCI tests are uselss, to take advantage of the situation. Even when 3 years ago Greg Lemond advised the method of testing was uselss both the UCI - testers and the teams - possible advantage takers, ignored his comments as those of a raving madman. In fact just one person in the whole wide world in the last 7 years has been so base as to do such an evil thing - that evil, very evil, moto-girl, Femke.
Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught
http://www.motor-car.co.uk/images/car_parts/enginepart/Starter-motor-Parts-Diagram.jpg
Please note the motor housing with coils connected to the field wire.
samhocking said:
http://www.motor-car.co.uk/images/car_parts/enginepart/Starter-motor-Parts-Diagram.jpg
Please note the motor housing with coils connected to the field wire.
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