Motor doping thread

[GJB123]

Re: Re:

...
I don't see the crank turning and I thought we had covered the fact that hub-motors are very visible.

we had.
but we've also covered the fact that a host of alternative wheel-based systems have become available in recent years. With sky's budget you'll agree nothing is beyond reach.
The fact that we didn't know how Lance cheated, didn't mean he wasn't cheating.

That said, i agree that this bit of footage is not very compelling. But as maxiton and others have pointed out, the state of the sport is such that suspicion is totally warranted.
"Better to see a motor when there isn't one, then to not see a motor when there is one."
(i think i'm quoting maxiton here)

It was meant as a joke, however at least with motors no-one is risking their health

Actually, they can be very dangerous. It's been pointed out that when the bottom bracket is opened to insert the motor, then resealed, it's structurally weakened, and is at risk for breaking during the race and causing a horrific accident.

correct me if wrong: the fact that this hasn't happened yet I think can be taken to suggest two things:
1. (hubbased) motordoping isn't very widespread (yet)
2. the peloton has already moved on from hub-based systems or has found alternative ways to hide them

The rim-based motors are not really realistic for reasons already explained in this thread. If we were to allow for the system that was explained in the video by Mr. Salden one wouldn't expect the bike moving or the wheel turning on its own as that system seems to rely largely not on motor a such but rather illegally optimizing the energy that is put through the crank by the rider himself.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
The rim-based motors are not really realistic for reasons already explained in this thread. If we were to allow for the system that was explained in the video by Mr. Salden one wouldn't expect the bike moving or the wheel turning on its own as that system seems to rely largely not on motor a such but rather illegally optimizing the energy that is put through the crank by the rider himself.

you're ignoring Cloxxki's and Vo2Max's posts above and a host of other posts the sum of which make your standpoint rather naive and/or uninformed.

- fool me once, shame on you -
That should be the one and only adage here.

 

[GJB123]

The only thing they are saying is that there are certain possibilities but that would entail a bike frame or wheel that looks very dissimilar to what you would normally expect. The idea here being that you want your bike to ok as normal as possible. Also the electromagnetic motor/rotor in the rims is not workable and that has been explained already (by I think jyl) in the thread that the configuration of the bike would have to be changed significantly to actually make that idea work.

I am on the fence for some the examples mentioned in this and other threads and I would readily accept that motors can and probably have been used by riders. That doesn't mean however that I have to see a motorized bike in each and every (comedy caper) moment. Not you or anybody else will tell to do otherwise. Just because you have become cynical and let that cloud you judgement, doesn't mean others have to follow suit. You are in effect just as bad as the omertà people, different side of the same medal. I prefer to make up my own mind, so if you or anybody else has convincing evidence or leads that something is amiss with a particular bike, rider or tea I will be more than willing to be convinced.

 

[harryh]

http://cyclingtips.com/2016/02/electromagnetic-wheel-motors-possible-in-theory-but-unlikely-in-practice/

 

[sniper]

Re:

The only thing they are saying is that there are certain possibilities but that would entail a bike frame or wheel that looks very dissimilar to what you would normally expect. The idea here being that you want your bike to ok as normal as possible. Also the electromagnetic motor/rotor in the rims is not workable and that has been explained already (by I think jyl) in the thread that the configuration of the bike would have to be changed significantly to actually make that idea work.

to say it's not workable, with the money Sky have at their disposal and knowing how closely they collaborate with some of the world's most renowned sports institutes (EIS, Loughborough, etc.), i think that's a stretch.

I am on the fence for some the examples mentioned in this and other threads and I would readily accept that motors can and probably have been used by riders. That doesn't mean however that I have to see a motorized bike in each and every (comedy caper) moment. Not you or anybody else will tell to do otherwise. Just because you have become cynical and let that cloud you judgement, doesn't mean others have to follow suit. You are in effect just as bad as the omertà people, different side of the same medal. I prefer to make up my own mind, so if you or anybody else has convincing evidence or leads that something is amiss with a particular bike, rider or tea I will be more than willing to be convinced.

that's fair enough.

 

[gillan1969]

Re:

The only thing they are saying is that there are certain possibilities but that would entail a bike frame or wheel that looks very dissimilar to what you would normally expect. The idea here being that you want your bike to ok as normal as possible. Also the electromagnetic motor/rotor in the rims is not workable and that has been explained already (by I think jyl) in the thread that the configuration of the bike would have to be changed significantly to actually make that idea work.

I am on the fence for some the examples mentioned in this and other threads and I would readily accept that motors can and probably have been used by riders. That doesn't mean however that I have to see a motorized bike in each and every (comedy caper) moment. Not you or anybody else will tell to do otherwise. Just because you have become cynical and let that cloud you judgement, doesn't mean others have to follow suit. You are in effect just as bad as the omertà people, different side of the same medal. I prefer to make up my own mind, so if you or anybody else has convincing evidence or leads that something is amiss with a particular bike, rider or tea I will be more than willing to be convinced.

If we presume that the pro peloton works on the insider/outsider model and that the aims of the peloton coincide with the aims of the governing body who are also responsible for policing them...then, like PEDS, motor doping (or at least v sophisticated motor doping) become another area which differentiates the pro-peloton from us mere mortals i.e. they have to keep us as outsiders by keeping them faster

Knowing what we know about sport's governing bodies, and specifically the UCI, it is difficult to see that if they can do it, they will be doing it...or at least a favoured few will..

Got to keep having heroes throwing out 'unbelievable' performances....

Unfortunately that is where we are....

 

[GJB123]

Re: Re:

The only thing they are saying is that there are certain possibilities but that would entail a bike frame or wheel that looks very dissimilar to what you would normally expect. The idea here being that you want your bike to ok as normal as possible. Also the electromagnetic motor/rotor in the rims is not workable and that has been explained already (by I think jyl) in the thread that the configuration of the bike would have to be changed significantly to actually make that idea work.

to say it's not workable, with the money Sky have at their disposal and knowing how closely they collaborate with some of the world's most renowned sports institutes (EIS, Loughborough, etc.), i think that's a stretch.

See harryh's post that contains a link from an article benotti or maxiton linked to. It is theoretically possible but unlikely to work in practice. Not my words but of someone who actually understands electromagnetism. As long as someone like that isn't convinced I shall remain at least on the fence. You on the other hand want to believe it so badly that you apparently stopped reading at "electro-magnetic wheels possible".

 

[sniper]

Re:

http://cyclingtips.com/2016/02/electromagnetic-wheel-motors-possible-in-theory-but-unlikely-in-practice/

good link.
so they basically put it down to it being a very expensive undertaking.
which in the case of teams like Sky is a ridiculous argument.

I'm quoting these two posts for relevance:

Cloxxki: Yes, such as the available rim systems. And innovative teams don't need an over the counter solution. Never to find legal marginal gains, so why wait for illegal over the counter ones? Those hardly provide an edge over others. As in doping, it's about how much performance you can steal without being detected.

Vo2max:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDJMrBP7QNY Rounder wheels!
Hub-doping that wouldn't require opening up the frame is easily imaginable. For example a well-designed gearing system between vertical actuator and horizontally-spinning bottom bracket should let you install the latter in the normal way (think of a cartridge-style rather than external cups) then press the actuator down onto it. Needs a freehub in there somewhere to stop it resisting normal pedalling but all doable.

Bottomline: the stupidest thing to do now is to assume Femke van den Driessche's equipment was state of the art. She was using a version of Varjas' "silent pro" model, for crying out loud, which is a 17 years old system, as Varjas himself noted in 2015 (l'Equipe). So make that 18 years old.

It's a bit like showing off your nokia 5110 anno 2016.

 

[GJB123]

Who claimed Femke's solution was state of the art? I certainly didn't since I wouldn't know. Mind you, simple solutions tend to work best in cases like this in my limited experience.

And no it is not just money that would be needed to make electro-magnetic wheels work. You would require very strong magnets, impeccable timing/IT (otherwise the wheel will act as a brake rather than a motor) and the seat and chain stay would have to much closer to the rim than is common on the road bikes currently used in the peloton. This because the slightest gap will have very detrimental effect on the effectiveness of the system. See below posts in other threads, where this explained much better than I ever could.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=22884&p=1860608#p1860608

viewtopic.php?p=1860396#p1860396

viewtopic.php?p=1860114#p1860114

viewtopic.php?p=1860121#p1860121

 

[harryh]

Re: Re:

http://cyclingtips.com/2016/02/electromagnetic-wheel-motors-possible-in-theory-but-unlikely-in-practice/

good link.
so they basically put it down to it being a very expensive undertaking.

I don't think so.

WHY IT’S UNLIKELY

Whichever method is used, turning a rear wheel into an electromagnetic motor is far easier to do in theory than in practice.

In addition to the physical hardware that would have to be developed (including a custom molded rim that would presumably mimic that of the supplying team sponsor), the frequency of the applied current would have to be unfailingly precise, so as not to turn the desired speed-boosting motor into a resistance-adding generator.

“In order to keep the weight low and have it work reasonably well, you’d need thin strips of magnetics around the rim,” Dave Pfieffer, an electrical engineer at Ball Aerospace in Boulder, Colorado, told CyclingTips. “The inductive side of the motor would likely be inside the chainstays or seatstays. As an engineer, you’d then want a tight clearance between the seatstays/chainstays and the rim for maximum efficiency.

“The real question is how much are the magnetics and induction motor elements going to weigh? I bet it’s all possible to keep the total system weight under 2kg (4.4 lbs), but at what cost? To keep the weight down, you’d need some very hard-to-manufacture magnetics. They’d need to be small, thin, and lightweight, yet generate strong magnetic fields. You’d then have to get them in the wheels. Basically I’d say yes, it’s theoretically possible, but I’ll put this in the ‘I’ll believe it when I see it’ category.”

 

[sniper]

Re:

Who claimed Femke's solution was state of the art? I certainly didn't since I wouldn't know. Mind you, simple solutions tend to work best in cases like this in my limited experience.

And no it is not just money that would be needed to make electro-magnetic wheels work. You would require very strong magnets, impeccable timing/IT (otherwise the wheel will act as a brake rather than a motor) and the seat and chain stay would have to much closer to the rim than is common on the road bikes currently used in the peloton. This because the slightest gap will have very detrimental effect on the effectiveness of the system. See below posts in other threads, where this explained much better than I ever could.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=22884&p=1860608#p1860608

viewtopic.php?p=1860396#p1860396

viewtopic.php?p=1860114#p1860114

viewtopic.php?p=1860121#p1860121

you didn't read the Gazzetta article, did you?
or you wanna throw that out of the window as another case of science fiction?
http://www.gazzetta.it/Ciclismo/01-02-2016/bicicletta-motore-ruota-sistema-nuovo-vecchio-grafico-zolder-van-den-driessche-140501305543.shtml
A wheel costs around 200.000 euros; construction time ca. 6 months.

 

[GJB123]

As stated I do not need to be convinced that motors are being and have been used. It si simple human nature. If it is possible and available you will always find people willing to use them.

However the arguments used here are sometimes all over the place. Froome, Canc and Femke are all likely users because they attack seated and apparently according to some that is the best and safest way to use the motors. Then a finer i pointed at Contador because he changes bikes a lot, And we all now that changing bikes can only be done for one reason. But wait, Contador climbs and attacks mainly out of the saddle, so how do we explain that. Same applies to Hesjedal. Froome, on the other hand, as far as I am aware doesn't change bikes very often and neither do any of the other Sky riders as far as I am aware.

So that leaves Canc who did change bikes a lot and attacked seated and Femke (who we know used motorized bike) who attacked seated and portably didn't need to change bikes due to the nature of a cyclocross (short races in general lees than 1 hour for ladies). In favor of Canc spekas that his RvV Muur-assault wasn't actually that fast, but rather it was Boonen who was quite slow. Now I can imagine Boonen stating he was going all out and still got trounced by Canc but then gain he would, wouldn't he. Rather state that the victor is suspect than admitting you were just not so hot that day.

 

[GJB123]

Re: Re:

Who claimed Femke's solution was state of the art? I certainly didn't since I wouldn't know. Mind you, simple solutions tend to work best in cases like this in my limited experience.

And no it is not just money that would be needed to make electro-magnetic wheels work. You would require very strong magnets, impeccable timing/IT (otherwise the wheel will act as a brake rather than a motor) and the seat and chain stay would have to much closer to the rim than is common on the road bikes currently used in the peloton. This because the slightest gap will have very detrimental effect on the effectiveness of the system. See below posts in other threads, where this explained much better than I ever could.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=22884&p=1860608#p1860608

viewtopic.php?p=1860396#p1860396

viewtopic.php?p=1860114#p1860114

viewtopic.php?p=1860121#p1860121

you didn't read the Gazzetta article, did you?
or you wanna throw that out of the window as another case of science fiction?

I did and it contained precious little (scientific) information as to how this is suppose to work. You read all the posts I linked to? Did you google whether jyl might actually have a point? Did you understand what the expert in the linked article said about electro-magnetic wheels and the likelihood of them being currently in existence on road bike as curably used? Or is this just a case of cognitive dissonance on your part?

 

[sniper]

Re:

... Then a finer i pointed at Contador because he changes bikes a lot, And we all now that changing bikes can only be done for one reason. But wait, Contador climbs and attacks mainly out of the saddle, so how do we explain that.

Contador changed bikes an x-number of times in the Giro MTFs, yet UCI only checked his finish bike.
That was the argument. Not whether or not he's using a motor.
Also, whereas accellerating like Cance 2010 or Froome 2013 uphill in the saddle is (imo) evidence of a motor, the reverse is obviously not the case. You can use a motor on the flat to save energy for the final climb, i think that much is obvious. So Contador climbing/accellerating out of the saddle proves little either way.

 

[Tienus]

Longer video of the Maud Kaptheijns interview:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BLHwOFmY2o

She states that the dutch team checks all the bikes before the race and the Belgiums dont. As the UCI rules clearly state that the team is responsable this is a big mistake from Rudy de Bie. I mentioned before that he must have been aware of the rumours.


http://sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrennen/1.2567161
In this interview Eddy Mercks softened his statemend that Femke should be banned for life. He states that it was the UCI who said she had used her motorized bike at a race. Not sure if he means the world championship. Anyway it conflicts whit the UCI statement.

I'm starting to lean more and more towards the idea that the UCI took the bike that Femke used during the race.

 

[harryh]

Re:

As stated I do not need to be convinced that motors are being and have been used. It si simple human nature. If it is possible and available you will always find people willing to use them.

However the arguments used here are sometimes all over the place. Froome, Canc and Femke are all likely users because they attack seated and apparently according to some that is the best and safest way to use the motors. Then a finer i pointed at Contador because he changes bikes a lot, And we all now that changing bikes can only be done for one reason. But wait, Contador climbs and attacks mainly out of the saddle, so how do we explain that. Same applies to Hesjedal. Froome, on the other hand, as far as I am aware doesn't change bikes very often and neither do any of the other Sky riders as far as I am aware.

So that leaves Canc who did change bikes a lot and attacked seated and Femke (who we know used motorized bike) who attacked seated and portably didn't need to change bikes due to the nature of a cyclocross (short races in general lees than 1 hour for ladies). In favor of Canc spekas that his RvV Muur-assault wasn't actually that fast, but rather it was Boonen who was quite slow. Now I can imagine Boonen stating he was going all out and still got trounced by Canc but then gain he would, wouldn't he. Rather state that the victor is suspect than admitting you were just not so hot that day.

Good post, good to be sceptical about scepticism too Btw, one may also look at the speed difference of Poels and Aru (30:45), Aru is wrestling with his bike and Poels easily flies away:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEGFQvWSf74

For someone this may be another evidence of motodoping because the technology exists and Poels rides for Sky

Here's a video which shows what happens when motorized bikes refuse to collaborate with the riders:
https://youtu.be/KHsTn7ketto

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

A wheel costs around 200.000 euros; construction time ca. 6 months.

do they make those wheels in round shapes?

how round are the wheels?

 

[blackcat]

Re:

As stated I do not need to be convinced that motors are being and have been used. It si simple human nature. If it is possible and available you will always find people willing to use them.

However the arguments used here are sometimes all over the place. Froome, Canc and Femke are all likely users because they attack seated and apparently according to some that is the best and safest way to use the motors. Then a finer i pointed at Contador because he changes bikes a lot, And we all now that changing bikes can only be done for one reason. But wait, Contador climbs and attacks mainly out of the saddle, so how do we explain that. Same applies to Hesjedal. Froome, on the other hand, as far as I am aware doesn't change bikes very often and neither do any of the other Sky riders as far as I am aware.

So that leaves Canc who did change bikes a lot and attacked seated and Femke (who we know used motorized bike) who attacked seated and portably didn't need to change bikes due to the nature of a cyclocross (short races in general lees than 1 hour for ladies). In favor of Canc spekas that his RvV Muur-assault wasn't actually that fast, but rather it was Boonen who was quite slow. Now I can imagine Boonen stating he was going all out and still got trounced by Canc but then gain he would, wouldn't he. Rather state that the victor is suspect than admitting you were just not so hot that day.

so I wanna wait for Ballan and Devolder and Hoste's comments...
I think the apostrophe denoting ownership should have been placed after the 's' in Hoste's name, but I was not referring to a plural of Hostes. that would be downright scary. A bunch of lowlanders with weak jaws and yokel mouth agape physiognomies

in joke on Leif Hoste, cos I never do esoteric inside jokes, \o/

for the outsiders, that symbol \o/ represents Hoste throwing his hands up when his competitors in the move or the break would not ride and do their pulls. I am not even talking a reacharound or a dutchrudder.

who thinks Hoste looks like a Rembrandt portrait this enlightenment man of the road

/urbandictionary

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

As stated I do not need to be convinced that motors are being and have been used. It si simple human nature. If it is possible and available you will always find people willing to use them.

However the arguments used here are sometimes all over the place. Froome, Canc and Femke are all likely users because they attack seated and apparently according to some that is the best and safest way to use the motors. Then a finer i pointed at Contador because he changes bikes a lot, And we all now that changing bikes can only be done for one reason. But wait, Contador climbs and attacks mainly out of the saddle, so how do we explain that. Same applies to Hesjedal. Froome, on the other hand, as far as I am aware doesn't change bikes very often and neither do any of the other Sky riders as far as I am aware.

So that leaves Canc who did change bikes a lot and attacked seated and Femke (who we know used motorized bike) who attacked seated and portably didn't need to change bikes due to the nature of a cyclocross (short races in general lees than 1 hour for ladies). In favor of Canc spekas that his RvV Muur-assault wasn't actually that fast, but rather it was Boonen who was quite slow. Now I can imagine Boonen stating he was going all out and still got trounced by Canc but then gain he would, wouldn't he. Rather state that the victor is suspect than admitting you were just not so hot that day.

Good post, good to be sceptical about scepticism too Btw, one may also look at the speed difference of Poels and Aru (30:45), Aru is wrestling with his bike and Poels easily flies away:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEGFQvWSf74

For someone this may be another evidence of motodoping because the technology exists and Poels rides for Sky

Here's a video which shows what happens when motorized bikes refuse to collaborate with the riders:
https://youtu.be/KHsTn7ketto

Poels has always looked good on a bike. Like a taller Kloden in pedaling style.

He does look in good form though. With Landa, Poels and the rest of the SkyBorgs Froome will be unstoppable. The only thing that might stop the Dawg is a faulty motor

 

[sniper]

race radio always has his ears close to the peloton.
i'm still amazed he never called out froome's ventoux 2013 in saddle accelleration away from dertie.
it's unlike anything we'd ever seen before.

then there's Kerrison's remarkable "reduced drag" explanation for why froome decided to stay seated.
Yet according to race radio Froome had a tailwind for most of the climb, so there goes the "reduced drag" argument out of the window.

Froome here is the laughing third, though. Following Femke's @@@@-up he gave the press a nice sound bite and they ran away with it. The press eating from his hands. Brilliant preemptive strike from Froome though. Instead of headlines recalling his dodgy in-saddle ventoux accelleration, the headlines read
"Froome informed UCI of suspicions about motordoping"
"Froome demands more bike checks"
etc.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Poels has always looked good on a bike. Like a taller Kloden in pedaling style.

He does look in good form though. With Landa, Poels and the rest of the SkyBorgs Froome will be unstoppable. The only thing that might stop the Dawg is a faulty motor

Kloeden looked like a rent boy on the amalfi coast who visited gore once a month at La Rondinaia

 

[thehog]

Re:

race radio always has his ears close to the peloton.
i'm still amazed he never called out froome's ventoux 2013 in saddle accelleration away from dertie.
it's unlike anything we'd ever seen before.

then there's Kerrison's remarkable "reduced drag" explanation for why froome decided to stay seated.
Yet according to race radio Froome had a tailwind for most of the climb, so there goes the "reduced drag" argument out of the window.

Froome here is the laughing third, though. Following Femke's f*ck-up he gave the press a nice sound bite and they ran away with it. The press eating from his hands. Brilliant preemptive strike from Froome though. Instead of headlines recalling his dodgy in-saddle ventoux accelleration, the headlines read
"Froome informed UCI of suspicions about motordoping"
"Froome demands more bike checks"
etc.

The Tailwind saga was the most ridiculous thread in the history of the Clinic. Provided a lot of laughs though

 

[sniper]

reminiscing.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Bottomline: the stupidest thing to do now is to assume Femke van den Driessche's equipment was state of the art. She was using a version of Varjas' "silent pro" model, for crying out loud, which is a 17 years old system, as Varjas himself noted in 2015 (l'Equipe). So make that 18 years old.

It's probably the most state of the art method of carrying the ruse out available for them, given the financial position. And just like the low level pros getting busted for taking stuff that the pros either have better ways to mask or simply have moved on from because it's too risky, motors in bikes have probably moved on too from what a small operation can put together on the budget of a few bits of gear provided by Kleur op Maat and the family kitty, even with Peter's carbon repair expertise.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Bottomline: the stupidest thing to do now is to assume Femke van den Driessche's equipment was state of the art. She was using a version of Varjas' "silent pro" model, for crying out loud, which is a 17 years old system, as Varjas himself noted in 2015 (l'Equipe). So make that 18 years old.

It's probably the most state of the art method of carrying the ruse out available for them, given the financial position. And just like the low level pros getting busted for taking stuff that the pros either have better ways to mask or simply have moved on from because it's too risky, motors in bikes have probably moved on too from what a small operation can put together on the budget of a few bits of gear provided by Kleur op Maat and the family kitty, even with Peter's carbon repair expertise.

well said.
Plenty of reasons to take Gazzetta's informant seriously.
Davide Cassani was right in 2010. Why would the Gazzetta be making stuff up now?

Hesjedal's footage went viral, and for good reasons. Thousands of independent people, journos and cyclists alike, thought and think it looked wrong.