Motor doping thread

[sniper]

When Lotto Jumbo said 'Primoz had a sparewheel ergo no motor', there was no follow up on that either.
Everybody just swallowed it.

I like Mayo-Mayo's suggestion that today's press conference was a plant.

Seeing how UCI operate wrt motors, I can only assume they're part of the fraud, maybe even use it to control the outcome of certain stages and/or one day races (Cummings?)

 

[sniper]

great spot, Tienus.

 

[sniper]

This guy doesn't buy it:

Clément Guillou
‏@JeuneGuillou

L'UCI envoie des mails à Brailsford pour le remercier de la coopération des Sky. Où vit-on ??

"UCI sends Brailsford emails to thank him for Sky's cooperation? Where do we live??"

 

[blackcat]

Re:

This guy doesn't buy it:

Clément Guillou
‏@JeuneGuillou

L'UCI envoie des mails à Brailsford pour le remercier de la coopération des Sky. Où vit-on ??

"UCI sends Brailsford emails to thank him for Sky's cooperation? Where do we live??"

Pluto?

right planet?

 

[WillemS]

I did that descent a couple of times, I don't think he would need a motor to reach those speeds. I don't think the main difference between Froome's precious descents and this one was an increase in power; the main difference was that he used to corner like an American car and now corned like, well maybe not a Porsche 922 or Nissan GT-R, but a decent sports car at least. I know a lot of you don't like Froome, but that was one fine descent, unlike some of the descents he did in previous years.

That doesn't mean Sky isn't using motors or even that he didn't use a motor during this stage, I'm passed being surprised by anything, but I just don't really see the evidence for a motor here.

 

[gazr99]

Re:

I did that descent a couple of times, I don't think he would need a motor to reach those speeds. I don't think the main difference between Froome's precious descents and this one was an increase in power; the main difference was that he used to corner like an American car and now corned like, well maybe not a Porsche 922 or Nissan GT-R, but a decent sports car at least. I know a lot of you don't like Froome, but that was one fine descent, unlike some of the descents he did in previous years.

That doesn't mean Sky isn't using motors or even that he didn't use a motor during this stage, I'm passed being surprised by anything, but I just don't really see the evidence for a motor here.

It's the clinic no need for evidence here, just outlandish claims and opinions on what they think is happening and how it is all a great big cover up. People claimed earlier there is lots of evidence out there but didn't want to share it.

 

[WillemS]

Re: Re:

It's the clinic no need for evidence here, just outlandish claims and opinions on what they think is happening and how it is all a great big cover up. People claimed earlier there is lots of evidence out there but didn't want to share it.

Well, I know this is the clinic, I've been around for a while, mostly lurking, occasionally posting. I do think there's a lot of evidence, mostly circumstantial but nonetheless telling, that cycling is not as clean as PR makes it out to be.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

I did that descent a couple of times, I don't think he would need a motor to reach those speeds. I don't think the main difference between Froome's precious descents and this one was an increase in power; the main difference was that he used to corner like an American car and now corned like, well maybe not a Porsche 922 or Nissan GT-R, but a decent sports car at least. I know a lot of you don't like Froome, but that was one fine descent, unlike some of the descents he did in previous years.

That doesn't mean Sky isn't using motors or even that he didn't use a motor during this stage, I'm passed being surprised by anything, but I just don't really see the evidence for a motor here.

It's the clinic no need for evidence here, just outlandish claims and opinions on what they think is happening and how it is all a great big cover up. People claimed earlier there is lots of evidence out there but didn't want to share it.

So outlandish that the UCI are apparently testing bikes every day at the tour! That is strong evidence!

 

[Hawkwood]

Re:

When Lotto Jumbo said 'Primoz had a sparewheel ergo no motor', there was no follow up on that either.
Everybody just swallowed it.

I like Mayo-Mayo's suggestion that today's press conference was a plant.

Seeing how UCI operate wrt motors, I can only assume they're part of the fraud, maybe even use it to control the outcome of certain stages and/or one day races (Cummings?)

How would anyone follow up on Stade 2's half-baked `investigation'?!

So now you're suggesting Cummings might be in the frame, and your evidence is...?

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

When Lotto Jumbo said 'Primoz had a sparewheel ergo no motor', there was no follow up on that either.
Everybody just swallowed it.

I like Mayo-Mayo's suggestion that today's press conference was a plant.

Seeing how UCI operate wrt motors, I can only assume they're part of the fraud, maybe even use it to control the outcome of certain stages and/or one day races (Cummings?)

How would anyone follow up on Stade 2's half-baked `investigation'?!

So now you're suggesting Cummings might be in the frame, and your evidence is...?

why are UCI testing bikes?

 

[Hawkwood]

Re: Re:

When Lotto Jumbo said 'Primoz had a sparewheel ergo no motor', there was no follow up on that either.
Everybody just swallowed it.

I like Mayo-Mayo's suggestion that today's press conference was a plant.

Seeing how UCI operate wrt motors, I can only assume they're part of the fraud, maybe even use it to control the outcome of certain stages and/or one day races (Cummings?)

How would anyone follow up on Stade 2's half-baked `investigation'?!

So now you're suggesting Cummings might be in the frame, and your evidence is...?

why are UCI testing bikes?

Because they can claim `look at us we're doing something'. As to whether there's much point in some of the testing they're doing well that's another matter. The easiest place by far to put a viable motor is in the seat-tube, and it's also the easiest to check.

 

[Hawkwood]

Re:

According to Varjas you can make the hub motor undetectable for the UCI device.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/19/sports/cycling/with-a-discreet-motor-doping-the-bike-instead-of-the-cyclist.html

In an interview on Monday, Varjas said that his crank-assist devices could produce more than 250 watts, the amount of power a professional rider might typically average during a four-hour race. The smaller hub-assist motors, which he makes only for custom orders, typically produce only about 25 watts, he said, and require the rider to be able to maintain a high pedaling rate as is the case with all professionals. Even a 25-watt boost would be significant during a professional race.

Varjas said his system was nearly silent and light enough to keep a bike at the cycling union’s minimum weight.

“If you have this system, you can stay with the group, but nobody hears it, nobody sees it, nobody knows about it,” he said of the devices, which cost 10,000 to 25,000 euros (about $11,300 to about $28,200), depending on features.

While Varjas said that some professionals and teams used the motors for training — sometimes as a substitute for pacing at high speeds behind a motorcycle — he said that he did not know if the motors were also used in races for cheating. But he added that he believed that some kinds of carbon fiber, the material used to make pro bikes, could render the technology invisible to the cycling union’s new screening devices.

Varjas said that many of his customers who merely relied on the device to keep cycling were reluctant to offer endorsements.

“It’s a very strange market,” Varjas said. “No one will say they have this kind of bike.”

This was a news item that came out a few days after the Stade 2/Corriere della Sera documentary/article back in April. Oddly when Stade 2 visited Varjas to discuss motors for the documentary he couldn't show them a rim motor, or a hub/cassette motor, despite apparently supplying the latter according to the New York Times report.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

When Lotto Jumbo said 'Primoz had a sparewheel ergo no motor', there was no follow up on that either.
Everybody just swallowed it.

I like Mayo-Mayo's suggestion that today's press conference was a plant.

Seeing how UCI operate wrt motors, I can only assume they're part of the fraud, maybe even use it to control the outcome of certain stages and/or one day races (Cummings?)

How would anyone follow up on Stade 2's half-baked `investigation'?!

So now you're suggesting Cummings might be in the frame, and your evidence is...?

why are UCI testing bikes?

Because they can claim `look at us we're doing something'. As to whether there's much point in some of the testing they're doing well that's another matter. The easiest place by far to put a viable motor is in the seat-tube, and it's also the easiest to check.

They are testing because there is moto fraud. It doesn't mean they want to catch anyone. Catching a nobody 19 year old was a shot across the bows, saying to teams dont f**k with the UCI!

Festina affair 1998. Tour of redemption 1999. Look how that went

 

[MarkvW]

Interesting that Brailsford did not deny feasibility in his defense of Froome.

 

[thehog]

Re:

Interesting that Brailsford did not deny feasibility in his defense of Froome.

Noted.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
This was a news item that came out a few days after the Stade 2/Corriere della Sera documentary/article back in April. Oddly when Stade 2 visited Varjas to discuss motors for the documentary he couldn't show them a rim motor, or a hub/cassette motor, despite apparently supplying the latter according to the New York Times report.

couldn't or wouldn't?
important difference.
And even if Varjas is full of ***, you still haven't provided an even remotely plausible explanation for Primoz glowing hub. Scienceiscool has given you some clues as to what the likely answer is.

 

[sniper]

here's Stade 2's report in full (23 mins.):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15kIyBhsX8o
It's really a good watch.
Especially when Cookson is confronted with the footage, at ca. 11 minutes in.
Lol, I've never seen him so uncomfortable. Almost as if he himself just got caught on camera with his hands in the cooky jar. What a clown!

 

[Tienus]

I've never seen him so uncomfortable

Espescially when they talk about the rider who finished fourth and which bike would have been checked after the race. I suspect they are talking about Sagan who's current trademark is to solo to victory.

 

[sniper]

Re:

I've never seen him so uncomfortable

Espescially when they talk about the rider who finished fourth and which bike would have been checked after the race. I suspect they are talking about Sagan who's current trademark is to solo to victory.

Cookson 'laughing like a farmer with toothache'*

(*literal translation of the epic Dutch proverb 'lachen als een boer met kiespijn'. Anybody know a decent English equivalent?)

 

[veganrob]

Re: Re:

Anyone else notice the sketchy alternation of hands around the bars towards the end? Screamed of pushing some sort of button/device to me.

Saw the same thing. But I have to rewatch it to find out. What we did there wasn't human. It was more bizarre than Cancellara's classics season in 2010.

Where are the thermal detectors when you need them?

Also bizarre that he gained time on the descent where a motor would have been of little use, but lost time on the flat where using a motor would have provided the most benefit. Also what `wasn't human' about it? The position is a common one, pedalling in that position apparently isn't novel, and the speeds he hit 80-90 KPH are easily achievable on a descent. When I was younger and a bit more flexible I could hit 81KPH on a local descent that's just 700m long.

And could you pedal at that speed? And in that awkward position? Even with a 54 t chainring I think it would not be possible to get any benefit. Just asking

I'm no rockstar descender but I've used that position and been able to predal at those speeds before, the position is not that awkward at all and looks pretty normal with a rider who isn't so awkward looking on the bike like Froome is. Mohoric can make it look pretty smooth https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gwV3YUlZSxI

Some of the guys claimed 120-130kph instead of the 80-90kph. Does this change anything for you/

 

[Tienus]

I rewatched the descent and used a stopwatch and landmarks. In aero tuck without pedalling in not too steep parts with a headwind Froome was about 10% faster than Valverde in aero tuck.

 

[sniper]

Tienus, playing devils advocate, you think a motor could provide additional speed if he's already going downhill at 80-ish kmh?
Also bear in mind that if he had a motor it means he would've carried the extra weight going uphill. What motor do you think he was using and what do you think it weighs approximately?

 

[Tienus]

First of all I dont know if he was using a motor or not but think it is plausable.

In this descent in full aero tuck at some point your accelleration will be stopped by drag. If at this point you have extra electrical watts then this will make a difference in top speed. I do not understand the difference in speed between Valverde and Froome in some segments that I timed. It is not cornering, Valverde is exiting every difficult corner with a higher speed

In the stade 2 documentary Varjas explains he can instal a 40 watts hub moter and your bike will still make the UCI minimum weight. According to him you can also install an extra one in the front wheel and get up to 80 watts combined. These motors do reuire high rpm according to him, I guess it has not much torque due to the small design. The wheel rpm in a descent is therefore ideal for hub motors.

A slightly bigger RWD engine allready exist for years. This one produces 250watts:
http://www.reefbikes.com.au/invisitron-r1-electric-bike-carbon-road-racing/
You can even get cheap ones from China
http://annad.en.alibaba.com/product/1001449580-218567348/electric_bike_road_e_bike.html

If he only had 40watts extra it would explain why he was not gaining (as much) time in the flatter segments where the chasing group had a bigger then advantage.

 

[Tienus]

As I posted earlier today it could be that Sagan is also one of the riders that stade 2 talks about.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15kIyBhsX8o
at around 11:20 they discuss a rider who was glowing during the race but not at the end of the race. His bike was checked according to Cookson as he finished fourth.
Looking at Sagan today he made the final split from the front of the pack after doing alot of work just before. Some big names dropped at the back due to his efforts.
I also find some of his solos a bit suspiscious, he looks like Cancellara. After winning the world championships he seems happy to throw everything away including his bike, but he remembers to put his computer in his pocket.

 

[kielbasa]

Re:

Tienus, playing devils advocate, you think a motor could provide additional speed if he's already going downhill at 80-ish kmh?
Also bear in mind that if he had a motor it means he would've carried the extra weight going uphill. What motor do you think he was using and what do you think it weighs approximately?

Bikes can be made so much lighter now that a motor and battery is can be used as ballast to get the bike to the legal weight. No weight disadvantage as long as there a minimum weight rule.