Motor doping thread

[King Boonen]

Re:

Simple enough, find a 2015 Sky TT bike out of storage and weigh it. It's not like they destroyed the bikes, have they?

I'm not sure if you are serious? Do you think they keep all their old bikes built up? Or stock-pile old framesets?

 

[CTQ]

In the 2015 Tour de France, bikes in the peloton were weighed before one of the time trial stages. French authorities told us the British Team Sky was the only team with bikes heavier than the rest-"""each bike weighed about 800 grams more"""" A spokesman for Team Sky said that during a time trial stage bikes might be heavier to allow for better aerodynamic performance. He said the team has never used mechanical assistance and that the bikes were checked and cleared by the sports governing body.

they imply that they are heavier than all other bikes by 800 grams, so all other bikes must have the same weight.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

In the 2015 Tour de France, bikes in the peloton were weighed before one of the time trial stages. French authorities told us the British Team Sky was the only team with bikes heavier than the rest-"""each bike weighed about 800 grams more"""" A spokesman for Team Sky said that during a time trial stage bikes might be heavier to allow for better aerodynamic performance. He said the team has never used mechanical assistance and that the bikes were checked and cleared by the sports governing body.

they imply that they are heavier than all other bikes by 800 grams, so all other bikes must have the same weight.

That literally makes no sense at all.

 

[samhocking]

pastronef's saying 800g is too precise. Sounds like they were comparing to the average of all the other bikes which is misleading. Weigh any road bike in peloton and you'll get anything from bang on 6.8kg all the way up to 8kg + just watch the GCN show. TT bikes are even more diverse in weight because saving weight isn't a prirority when you want to be aero. The Bolide was especially heavy frame until the 2016 model though where they shaved 350g off it.

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

In the 2015 Tour de France, bikes in the peloton were weighed before one of the time trial stages. French authorities told us the British Team Sky was the only team with bikes heavier than the rest-"""each bike weighed about 800 grams more"""" A spokesman for Team Sky said that during a time trial stage bikes might be heavier to allow for better aerodynamic performance. He said the team has never used mechanical assistance and that the bikes were checked and cleared by the sports governing body.

they imply that they are heavier than all other bikes by 800 grams, so all other bikes must have the same weight.

That literally makes no sense at all.

yes, if they said "Sky bikes where heavier than a few of the other bikes..."

but they gave a number. 800 grams heavier that the other bikes.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Maybe not the same weight but must have been a very good average for them to make that statement.

I found the entire thing facilitating. Not what I expected.
There are some implications and seems some explanations left to be investigated. I have a feeling that there is more in the 60 minutes cut than they put out. Maybe another publication or media will pick up where 60 minutes did not.

 

[pastronef]

Re:

pastronef's saying 800g is too precise. Sounds like they were comparing to the average of all the other bikes which is misleading. Weigh any road bike in peloton and you'll get anything from bang on 6.8kg all the way up to 8kg + just watch the GCN show. TT bikes are even more diverse in weight because saving weight isn't a prirority when you want to be aero. The Bolide was especially heavy frame until the 2016 model though where they shaved 350g off it.

it's not me saying 800 grams. it's what the CBS say.
agree with you, TT bikes are even more diverse from each other, disc, carbon 3spokes or deep front, set-ups etc etc

 

[vp2015]

Re: Re:

Simple enough, find a 2015 Sky TT bike out of storage and weigh it. It's not like they destroyed the bikes, have they?

I'm not sure if you are serious? Do you think they keep all their old bikes built up? Or stock-pile old framesets?

I am serious. The frame is what sky claims added 800g. Are the frames gone? Why would you destroy a frame? 60 minutes bought a 1999 Postal Trek on Ebay. All the other part weights are well known. Prove it Sky.

 

[samhocking]

I have TT bikes more than 800g difference lol. I better check i'm not cheating at the club 10!

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

Simple enough, find a 2015 Sky TT bike out of storage and weigh it. It's not like they destroyed the bikes, have they?

I'm not sure if you are serious? Do you think they keep all their old bikes built up? Or stock-pile old framesets?

I am serious. The frame is what sky claims added 800g. Are the frames gone? Why would you destroy a frame? 60 minutes bought a 1999 Postal Trek on Ebay. All the other part weights are well known. Prove it Sky.

oh ffs ahah. :lol:

 

[yaco]

I am more interested in whether LeMonD will be on Eurosport's coverage of the TDF ? Working secretly with the French Police at the 2015 TDF may not go down well.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Simple enough, find a 2015 Sky TT bike out of storage and weigh it. It's not like they destroyed the bikes, have they?

I'm not sure if you are serious? Do you think they keep all their old bikes built up? Or stock-pile old framesets?

I am serious. The frame is what sky claims added 800g. Are the frames gone? Why would you destroy a frame? 60 minutes bought a 1999 Postal Trek on Ebay. All the other part weights are well known. Prove it Sky.

That should really give you your answer. The frames are likely gone, sold on either publicly or to team members or sitting in a rider's garage as spare bike. All of the parts will have been stripped off and reused, sold, binned if worn out and so on. Rebuilding the bikes to the exact spec would be very difficult.

But it would also be pointless. The 800g number is ridiculous as the past few posts show. It implies that every other TT bike being ridden was exactly the same weight which is nonsense.

But the biggest problem is that the "extra" 800g supposedly comes from wheels that have never actually been shown to exist in the first place. Even in this supposedly massive exposé we are still yet to see these magical wheels in action...

 

[pastronef]

Re: Re:

Simple enough, find a 2015 Sky TT bike out of storage and weigh it. It's not like they destroyed the bikes, have they?

I'm not sure if you are serious? Do you think they keep all their old bikes built up? Or stock-pile old framesets?

I am serious. The frame is what sky claims added 800g. Are the frames gone? Why would you destroy a frame? 60 minutes bought a 1999 Postal Trek on Ebay. All the other part weights are well known. Prove it Sky.

That should really give you your answer. The frames are likely gone, sold on either publicly or to team members or sitting in a rider's garage as spare bike. All of the parts will have been stripped off and reused, sold, binned if worn out and so on. Rebuilding the bikes to the exact spec would be very difficult.

But it would also be pointless. The 800g number is ridiculous as the past few posts show. It implies that every other TT bike being ridden was exactly the same weight which is nonsense.

But the biggest problem is that the "extra" 800g supposedly comes from wheels that have never actually been shown to exist in the first place. Even in this supposedly massive exposé we are still yet to see these magical wheels in action...

and, and, it would mean big guy Stannard and little Richie Porte frames have the same weight, since vp2015 says that all the other parts have a fixed weight. there's more carbon in Stannard's bike than Porte's, but magically all Team Sky bikes weigh the same and are are 800 grams heavier that the others.

ps. Servais Knaven's daughter races, and is using 2015 Porte's Aussie TT champ painted Bolide. maybe vp2015 could get in touch with the Knavens

 

[vp2015]

"The frames are likely gone"
No they are not. They are either out there and can be weighed or they were destroyed. We have excellent photographs of these bikes at the Tdf so why would it be impossible to spec a used frame back up? The frame is the only logical place to put another 800g. It would be crazy to put an extra 800g on the wheels or any other parts for that matter. I'm not saying Sky is cheating, all I am saying is they could easily put this slander to rest if that's what it is.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

"The frames are likely gone"
No they are not. They are either out there and can be weighed or they were destroyed. We have excellent photographs of these bikes at the Tdf so why would it be impossible to spec a used frame back up? The frame is the only logical place to put another 800g. It would be crazy to put an extra 800g on the wheels or any other parts for that matter. I'm not saying Sky is cheating, all I am saying is they could easily put this slander to rest if that's what it is.

Buying the same parts is not the same as building up with the original parts. What if the Steerer has been cut? What about the seatpost? They might not have the same bars and stems and so on.

And this again ignores the biggest problem and that is that the 800g number is complete boll*cks on its own.

 

[samhocking]

I don't think the wheels exist. If I was the Varjas and the owner of his company and a major news channel decided to do a big story on me and my $200k wheels, why would I choose to only show them a 20 year old bike off ebay with my 20 years old crank motor inside? He claims his wheels are already being used on Tour de France TTT, so why not see them on CBS 60 Mins in action? Even at the manufacturer stage Pinarello would have to be involved as the other half of the wheel motor must be inside the frame - permanently! The frames are X-Rayed by UCI, even without the wheels, half the device is not removable anyway.

 

[sniper]

The evidence was underwhelming.

All the key players and offenders are now doubly warned and will have all the time in the world to quietly burry their motors and electromagnetic wheels at the bottom of the ocean, delete emails and other correspondence relating to cover-ups, and pay off any potentially loose-lipped (ex)members of staff.

For what it's worth, a major kudos to Greg here.
It may or may not be about Lance for him, but to be honest I couldnt care less.
He has put himself in the cross fire here, when really he didn't need to.
He must be absolutely convinced and gutted by it. Hi involvement is very important, first because he's close to the peloton, second because his reputation is as impeccable as it gets and so it's not as easy to discredit him.

In my humble view, any pro who now claims to have never seen or heard or even suspected motor use among his colleagues, is playing omerta and has probably used a motor himself.
Christian Vandevelde and Jonathan Vaughters say hi.

 

[King Boonen]

Re:

I don't think the wheels exist. If I was the Varjas and the owner of his company and a major news channel decided to do a big story on me and my $200k wheels, why would I choose to only show them a 20 year old bike off ebay with my 20 years old crank motor inside? He claims his wheels are already being used on Tour de France TTT, so why not see them on CBS 60 Mins in action? Even at the manufacturer stage Pinarello would have to be involved as the other half of the wheel motor must be inside the frame - permanently! The frames are X-Rayed by UCI, even without the wheels, half the device is not removable anyway.

Apparently the wheels work by magic. Or, at least, that's about as likely following Varjas' description:

"Magnets are hidden inside the rim of the wheel. When battery powered coils in the wheel are activated, it creates a magnetic field which propels the magnets forward spinning the wheel faster".

 

[CTQ]

83 Kg for Stannard on PCS, 59 kg for Quintana, and the bike of Stannard would be only 800 grams heavier than Quintana

 

[vp2015]

LeMond said he believes the 800g weight difference “should have set off alarm bells.”

 

[Tom the Engine]

Re: Re:

Apparently the wheels work by magic. Or, at least, that's about as likely following Varjas' description:

"Magnets are hidden inside the rim of the wheel. When battery powered coils in the wheel are activated, it creates a magnetic field which propels the magnets forward spinning the wheel faster".

Maybe I got it wrong, but as I understood they're not talking about these magic magnetic wheels in this story about the 2015 TdF with the "increased" weights of the Sky TTT bikes. They are referring to a "normal" rear-hub motor.

From the transcript:

Stefano Varjas told us that in addition to the motors in the bike frames, he’s designed a motor that can be hidden inside the hub of the back wheel seen here in a video he gave us.

Kathy LeMond: Stefano had said, “Weigh the wheels. You’ll find the wheels. The wheels are in the peloton.”

According to Varjas the enhanced wheels weigh about 800 grams—or 1.7 pounds more than normal wheels.

 

[samhocking]

Re: Re:

I don't think the wheels exist. If I was the Varjas and the owner of his company and a major news channel decided to do a big story on me and my $200k wheels, why would I choose to only show them a 20 year old bike off ebay with my 20 years old crank motor inside? He claims his wheels are already being used on Tour de France TTT, so why not see them on CBS 60 Mins in action? Even at the manufacturer stage Pinarello would have to be involved as the other half of the wheel motor must be inside the frame - permanently! The frames are X-Rayed by UCI, even without the wheels, half the device is not removable anyway.

Apparently the wheels work by magic. Or, at least, that's about as likely following Varjas' description:

"Magnets are hidden inside the rim of the wheel. When battery powered coils in the wheel are activated, it creates a magnetic field which propels the magnets forward spinning the wheel faster".

He showed a deep section rim with some holes cut in it and magnets superglued inside and then an empty plastic bobbin where the copper would be coiled around and would be the part in the chain and seat stays. I think his 60W claim is optimistic based on the diameter of the coil. Perhaps 6 watts for a few minutes depending on how much weight you want to add for the battery.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Apparently the wheels work by magic. Or, at least, that's about as likely following Varjas' description:

"Magnets are hidden inside the rim of the wheel. When battery powered coils in the wheel are activated, it creates a magnetic field which propels the magnets forward spinning the wheel faster".

Maybe I got it wrong, but as I understood they're not talking about these magic magnetic wheels in this story about the 2015 TdF with the "increased" weights of the Sky TTT bikes. They are referring to a "normal" rear-hub motor.

From the transcript:

Stefano Varjas told us that in addition to the motors in the bike frames, he’s designed a motor that can be hidden inside the hub of the back wheel seen here in a video he gave us.

Kathy LeMond: Stefano had said, “Weigh the wheels. You’ll find the wheels. The wheels are in the peloton.”

According to Varjas the enhanced wheels weigh about 800 grams—or 1.7 pounds more than normal wheels.

good point.

And it makes sense.
If there are electromagnetic wheels, they're much more likely to be found in track.
For the road, hub and bottombracket motors would probably be much more workable.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

I don't think the wheels exist. If I was the Varjas and the owner of his company and a major news channel decided to do a big story on me and my $200k wheels, why would I choose to only show them a 20 year old bike off ebay with my 20 years old crank motor inside? He claims his wheels are already being used on Tour de France TTT, so why not see them on CBS 60 Mins in action? Even at the manufacturer stage Pinarello would have to be involved as the other half of the wheel motor must be inside the frame - permanently! The frames are X-Rayed by UCI, even without the wheels, half the device is not removable anyway.

Apparently the wheels work by magic. Or, at least, that's about as likely following Varjas' description:

"Magnets are hidden inside the rim of the wheel. When battery powered coils in the wheel are activated, it creates a magnetic field which propels the magnets forward spinning the wheel faster".

He showed a deep section rim with some holes cut in it and magnets superglued inside and then an empty plastic bobbin where the copper would be coiled around and would be the part in the chain and seat stays. I think his 60W claim is optimistic based on the diameter of the coil. Perhaps 6 watts for a few minutes depending on how much weight you want to add for the battery.

No, he claimed that the magnets, coils and batteries were all in the wheels. It's in the extra video on the transcript page.

 

[King Boonen]

Re: Re:

Apparently the wheels work by magic. Or, at least, that's about as likely following Varjas' description:

"Magnets are hidden inside the rim of the wheel. When battery powered coils in the wheel are activated, it creates a magnetic field which propels the magnets forward spinning the wheel faster".

Maybe I got it wrong, but as I understood they're not talking about these magic magnetic wheels in this story about the 2015 TdF with the "increased" weights of the Sky TTT bikes. They are referring to a "normal" rear-hub motor.

From the transcript:

Stefano Varjas told us that in addition to the motors in the bike frames, he’s designed a motor that can be hidden inside the hub of the back wheel seen here in a video he gave us.

Kathy LeMond: Stefano had said, “Weigh the wheels. You’ll find the wheels. The wheels are in the peloton.”

According to Varjas the enhanced wheels weigh about 800 grams—or 1.7 pounds more than normal wheels.

We're talking about two different things here, I'm talking about the wheels in the overtime video. These are the same wheels samhocking is talking about, the ones shown with the cut-outs and plastic bobbins.
You're talking about the wheel in that incredibly blurry, impossible to see video where the hub looks several times the size of a normal hub (although it's impossible to tell)? The one he decided not to let CBS try out or even show to them?