Motor doping thread

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Oct 16, 2010
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Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

DanielSong39 said:
With that said, Sky can't be the only team using motors.
Quite clearly.

You might want to check up on the Sagan, Cance, Evans, Hesjedal, and Roglic threads. :)
 
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
vp2015 said:
"The frames are likely gone"
No they are not. They are either out there and can be weighed or they were destroyed. We have excellent photographs of these bikes at the Tdf so why would it be impossible to spec a used frame back up? The frame is the only logical place to put another 800g. It would be crazy to put an extra 800g on the wheels or any other parts for that matter. I'm not saying Sky is cheating, all I am saying is they could easily put this slander to rest if that's what it is.
Buying the same parts is not the same as building up with the original parts. What if the Steerer has been cut? What about the seatpost? They might not have the same bars and stems and so on.

And this again ignores the biggest problem and that is that the 800g number is complete boll*cks on its own.
vp2015 is correct. Anyone who has been in the bike business and worked on high end road and TT bikes will tell you it would be very easy to build one of those bikes up with similar original parts and get a very accurate comparison. The steerer and SP may? be cut. Come on.lol
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Re:

sniper said:
The evidence was underwhelming.

All the key players and offenders are now doubly warned and will have all the time in the world to quietly burry their motors and electromagnetic wheels at the bottom of the ocean, delete emails and other correspondence relating to cover-ups, and pay off any potentially loose-lipped (ex)members of staff.

For what it's worth, a major kudos to Greg here.
It may or may not be about Lance for him, but to be honest I couldnt care less.
He has put himself in the cross fire here, when really he didn't need to.
He must be absolutely convinced and gutted by it. Hi involvement is very important, first because he's close to the peloton, second because his reputation is as impeccable as it gets and so it's not as easy to discredit him.

In my humble view, any pro who now claims to have never seen or heard or even suspected motor use among his colleagues, is playing omerta and has probably used a motor himself.
Christian Vandevelde and Jonathan Vaughters say hi.
Yes I was a little shocked at Greg's comments. He puts himself out there.

I was trying to remember back if he had praise for Shrooms? Because he obviously is looking straight at Sky and a handful of others.
 
Aug 3, 2016
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Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
We're talking about two different things here, I'm talking about the wheels in the overtime video. These are the same wheels samhocking is talking about, the ones shown with the cut-outs and plastic bobbins.
Yes, I'm aware of this. I only pointed it out because I got the impression that your discussion links the magnetic wheels with the 2015 TTT story, which I don't think is what is said in the film:
samhocking said:
I don't think the wheels exist. If I was the Varjas and the owner of his company and a major news channel decided to do a big story on me and my $200k wheels, why would I choose to only show them a 20 year old bike off ebay with my 20 years old crank motor inside? He claims his wheels are already being used on Tour de France TTT, so why not see them on CBS 60 Mins in action?

King Boonen said:
You're talking about the wheel in that incredibly blurry, impossible to see video where the hub looks several times the size of a normal hub (although it's impossible to tell)? The one he decided not to let CBS try out or even show to them?
No doubt that Varjas is mainly using this buzz for shameless self-promotion. Again and again. I take everything he says with a grain of salt anyway.
He somehow likes to surround himself with a mystical aura. Just dropping a hint here and there but always remaining very secretive and never getting too specific. And all of a sudden he explicitly names Ferrari as his client after a phone call for no apparent reason as nobody even asked about it. Very strange glimpse of boasting.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
Tom the Engine said:
King Boonen said:
Apparently the wheels work by magic. Or, at least, that's about as likely following Varjas' description:

"Magnets are hidden inside the rim of the wheel. When battery powered coils in the wheel are activated, it creates a magnetic field which propels the magnets forward spinning the wheel faster".
Maybe I got it wrong, but as I understood they're not talking about these magic magnetic wheels in this story about the 2015 TdF with the "increased" weights of the Sky TTT bikes. They are referring to a "normal" rear-hub motor.

From the transcript:

Stefano Varjas told us that in addition to the motors in the bike frames, he’s designed a motor that can be hidden inside the hub of the back wheel seen here in a video he gave us.

Kathy LeMond: Stefano had said, “Weigh the wheels. You’ll find the wheels. The wheels are in the peloton.”

According to Varjas the enhanced wheels weigh about 800 grams—or 1.7 pounds more than normal wheels.
We're talking about two different things here, I'm talking about the wheels in the overtime video. These are the same wheels samhocking is talking about, the ones shown with the cut-outs and plastic bobbins.
You're talking about the wheel in that incredibly blurry, impossible to see video where the hub looks several times the size of a normal hub (although it's impossible to tell)? The one he decided not to let CBS try out or even show to them?
I'm thinking some type of agreement was made between 60 minutes producer and Stefano. Something that was probably recorded but not put into the piece or the overtime video.
There is more to this than what we just saw last night.
 
Re: Re:

King Boonen said:
Tom the Engine said:
King Boonen said:
Apparently the wheels work by magic. Or, at least, that's about as likely following Varjas' description:

"Magnets are hidden inside the rim of the wheel. When battery powered coils in the wheel are activated, it creates a magnetic field which propels the magnets forward spinning the wheel faster".
Maybe I got it wrong, but as I understood they're not talking about these magic magnetic wheels in this story about the 2015 TdF with the "increased" weights of the Sky TTT bikes. They are referring to a "normal" rear-hub motor.

From the transcript:

Stefano Varjas told us that in addition to the motors in the bike frames, he’s designed a motor that can be hidden inside the hub of the back wheel seen here in a video he gave us.

Kathy LeMond: Stefano had said, “Weigh the wheels. You’ll find the wheels. The wheels are in the peloton.”

According to Varjas the enhanced wheels weigh about 800 grams—or 1.7 pounds more than normal wheels.
We're talking about two different things here, I'm talking about the wheels in the overtime video. These are the same wheels samhocking is talking about, the ones shown with the cut-outs and plastic bobbins.
You're talking about the wheel in that incredibly blurry, impossible to see video where the hub looks several times the size of a normal hub (although it's impossible to tell)? The one he decided not to let CBS try out or even show to them?
Yes, i'm talking about the rims in terms of using this in the mountains or road stages. The hub obviously would only work if built into a disc wheel at the scale shown in the blurry video to hide it behind the disc of the wheel itself.

Also, Unless i'm mistaken on what the electromagnetic wheel is and how it works, it's simply a brushless motor. i.e. an inside out traditional motor where you put the permanent magnets on the rotor (inside rim) and you move the electromagnets to the stator (inside frame).
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Re: Re:

samhocking said:
King Boonen said:
Tom the Engine said:
King Boonen said:
Apparently the wheels work by magic. Or, at least, that's about as likely following Varjas' description:

"Magnets are hidden inside the rim of the wheel. When battery powered coils in the wheel are activated, it creates a magnetic field which propels the magnets forward spinning the wheel faster".
Maybe I got it wrong, but as I understood they're not talking about these magic magnetic wheels in this story about the 2015 TdF with the "increased" weights of the Sky TTT bikes. They are referring to a "normal" rear-hub motor.

From the transcript:

Stefano Varjas told us that in addition to the motors in the bike frames, he’s designed a motor that can be hidden inside the hub of the back wheel seen here in a video he gave us.

Kathy LeMond: Stefano had said, “Weigh the wheels. You’ll find the wheels. The wheels are in the peloton.”

According to Varjas the enhanced wheels weigh about 800 grams—or 1.7 pounds more than normal wheels.
We're talking about two different things here, I'm talking about the wheels in the overtime video. These are the same wheels samhocking is talking about, the ones shown with the cut-outs and plastic bobbins.
You're talking about the wheel in that incredibly blurry, impossible to see video where the hub looks several times the size of a normal hub (although it's impossible to tell)? The one he decided not to let CBS try out or even show to them?
Yes, i'm talking about the rims in terms of using this in the mountains or road stages. The hub obviously would only work if built into a disc wheel at the scale shown in the blurry video to hide it behind the disc of the wheel itself.

Also, Unless i'm mistaken on what the electromagnetic wheel is and how it works, it's simply a brushless motor. i.e. an inside out traditional motor where you put the permanent magnets on the rotor (inside rim) and you move the electromagnets to the stator (inside frame).
You are correct on the "how it works".

I think we all have seen these wheels in the TDF since around 2014 or maybe 15. My opinion.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Re: Re:

pastronef said:
Semper Fidelis said:
Someone is keeping the Producers from saying or publishing everything. Maybe a updated story is coming.
I think Varjas has a plan, it cannot just end this way.
and there is a French investigation going on.
it's not finished with the CBS tv show at all.
I belive you are correct.

Note that when the reporter was indicating that he had listened in on a conversation between Dr. F and Stefano that they only showed a still shot of them in the car together. Reasons we all can guess.

Also note that the French Police are involved with the location of the drop site for the cycles left off at a storage site.

I don't think for a moment this is the end. It is just the tip of the iceberg.

And after the comments with respect to 1998 I'm going to say it is hard not to question anything from then forward. Just hard. Unless this Stefano is a pathological liar. Then there are some unanswered questions out there for more than one cyclist.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

Semper Fidelis said:
pastronef said:
Semper Fidelis said:
Someone is keeping the Producers from saying or publishing everything. Maybe a updated story is coming.
I think Varjas has a plan, it cannot just end this way.
and there is a French investigation going on.
it's not finished with the CBS tv show at all.
I belive you are correct.

Note that when the reporter was indicating that he had listened in on a conversation between Dr. F and Stefano that they only showed a still shot of them in the car together. Reasons we all can guess.

Also note that the French Police are involved with the location of the drop site for the cycles left off at a storage site.

I don't think for a moment this is the end. It is just the tip of the iceberg.

And after the comments with respect to 1998 I'm going to say it is hard not to question anything from then forward. Just hard. Unless this Stefano is a pathological liar. Then there are some unanswered questions out there for more than one cyclist.
good stuff.

Tip of the iceberg? Most definitely.
Although the evidence might soon be burried at the bottom of the ocean.

It's a disgrace that it took so long for European journo's to get involved in this.
As I said earlier, the Stade 2 and Corriere della Sera did great work pursuing this.
The fact that nobody - except CBS(!) - followed up on it is just another absolute howler from the European sports press who really aren't worth the chairs they're sitting on (with some exceptions).
 
Jan 30, 2016
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I cant find a source for it now but I believe Varjas was not happy with Typhoon breaching their contract. This might be the reason Varjas is going after Typhoon and its customers.
It now looks like Varjas was the source for the Barfield mails.
 
Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

and if all the truth comes out, well, the pro-cycling system is in real danger.
that's why the Uci has no interest in questioning and finding motors.
it also depends if just Sky will be exposed as so many are wishing and focusing their attention on, or other teams and riders (why does noone wonder how did BMC beat the "motorized" Sky team in the 2015 TTT?)
that will be a turning point.
if it's just Sky, well, the evil will be eradicated from cycling and luckily we can go back and enjoying racing :rolleyes:
problem is (and at this point that's what I wish) if Sky has to go down, let's bring all the others down. Garmin, LottoJumbo, Sagan, etc etc
but seeing how things go in pro cycling it could still take time to see that happen. if it happens.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
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Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

pastronef said:
and if all the truth comes out, well, the pro-cycling system is in real danger.
that's why the Uci has no interest in questioning and finding motors.
it also depends if just Sky will be exposed as so many are wishing and focusing their attention on, or other teams and riders (why does noone wonder how did BMC beat the "motorized" Sky team in the 2015 TTT?)
that will be a turning point.
if it's just Sky, well, the evil will be eradicated from cycling and luckily we can go back and enjoying racing :rolleyes:
problem is (and at this point that's what I wish) if Sky has to go down, let's bring all the others down. Garmin, LottoJumbo, Sagan, etc etc
but seeing how things go in pro cycling it could still take time to see that happen. if it happens.
Agreed.

For the record, I don't remember anybody in here claiming it's just Sky.
Look at the Sagan, Cance, Evans, Hesjdal, and Primoz Roglic threads, for instance.

The fact that attention is now on Sky is not our fault. It's the 'fault' of CBS. They must really hate Sky and the UK, too.
 
It will be quite interesting to see if the dominant riders remain equally as dominant in 2017. You would have to be crazy or very protected to dare using a motor in the current environment.
 
Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

sniper said:
pastronef said:
and if all the truth comes out, well, the pro-cycling system is in real danger.
that's why the Uci has no interest in questioning and finding motors.
it also depends if just Sky will be exposed as so many are wishing and focusing their attention on, or other teams and riders (why does noone wonder how did BMC beat the "motorized" Sky team in the 2015 TTT?)
that will be a turning point.
if it's just Sky, well, the evil will be eradicated from cycling and luckily we can go back and enjoying racing :rolleyes:
problem is (and at this point that's what I wish) if Sky has to go down, let's bring all the others down. Garmin, LottoJumbo, Sagan, etc etc
but seeing how things go in pro cycling it could still take time to see that happen. if it happens.
Agreed.

For the record, I don't remember anybody in here claiming it's just Sky.
Look at the Sagan, Cance, Evans, Hesjdal, and Primoz Roglic threads, for instance.

The fact that attention is now on Sky is not our fault. It's the 'fault' of CBS. They must really hate Sky and the UK, too.
I dont say it's our fault or anyone's. I took a look on twitter and fukc-no questions about BMC beating those Sky special wheels in the 2015 TT.
they told me I am grasping at straws. I know that, I am so pro-Sky to "fight" :p the anti-Sky. it will be fun until it lasts.
 
Aug 3, 2016
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Re: Re:

Semper Fidelis said:
Note that when the reporter was indicating that he had listened in on a conversation between Dr. F and Stefano (...)
Varjas said that it was a conversation with Ferrari. The reporter couldn't verify this himself. That's a small difference..


Semper Fidelis said:
Unless this Stefano is a pathological liar.
It's probably not appropriate to speculate about such a diagnosis from just a couple of short appearances in the media. But I guess it's fair to say that at this point we cannot exclude this possibility for sure. Varjas has yet to demonstrate that.

Also note that the CBS reporter dropped a couple of hints in the overtime video that indicate that he's not entirely sure what to think of Varjas and his claims.
These are quotes:
"He's a complicated character."
"As with almost everything with Stefano Varjas he's a litte cagey."
 
Jan 30, 2016
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http://www.elconfidencial.com/deportes/ciclismo/2016-07-30/dopaje-mecanico-ciclismo-bicicletas-con-motor_1240466/
A controversial relationship
The director of the American company, who in April of this year participated in the presentation of the UCI tablet to detect electromagnetism, (hidden motors), in the bikes, next to Barfield, explains that its technology "can not be used on a professional bicycle since they use different pedalier diameters ". On the post exchange with the UCI manager, Gibbins insists that despite collaborating with Varjas in the past, "the UCI has nothing to do, it works hard against fraud with our collaboration. I think Kathy and her husband Greg were in negotiations with Varjas to get their bike on TV. "
For his part, the manager of the UCI, Barfield, has acknowledged the authorship of these emails stating that he did to collaborate with the police. Argument that the French authorities deny. Varjas admits that he worked for Typhoon and accused them of liars and scammers. "They wanted to steal my patents, my contacts and my knowledge, so I gave up our contract, charging only 4% of what we had agreed."
The Hungarian engineer warns that such connections are common. "The problem is that they want to hide it, the UCI manipulates public opinion through the media and has influences with the authorities. They decide as far as you can go and who to point to, you would go crazy if you knew the amount of cyclists who are using engines much more rudimentary than mine, "said Varjas.
 
Dec 7, 2010
8,771
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Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

sniper said:
pastronef said:
and if all the truth comes out, well, the pro-cycling system is in real danger.
that's why the Uci has no interest in questioning and finding motors.
it also depends if just Sky will be exposed as so many are wishing and focusing their attention on, or other teams and riders (why does noone wonder how did BMC beat the "motorized" Sky team in the 2015 TTT?)
that will be a turning point.
if it's just Sky, well, the evil will be eradicated from cycling and luckily we can go back and enjoying racing :rolleyes:
problem is (and at this point that's what I wish) if Sky has to go down, let's bring all the others down. Garmin, LottoJumbo, Sagan, etc etc
but seeing how things go in pro cycling it could still take time to see that happen. if it happens.
Agreed.

For the record, I don't remember anybody in here claiming it's just Sky.
Look at the Sagan, Cance, Evans, Hesjdal, and Primoz Roglic threads, for instance.

The fact that attention is now on Sky is not our fault. It's the 'fault' of CBS. They must really hate Sky and the UK, too.
I don't think that is exactly what pastronef was saying in respect to sky. I think he is trying to say that we need to be looking at all of these teams. Which some of us really are. But the main focus as with the headline at CN is on sky. I hope they all get caught or exposed.

For me and only in my opinion this type of cheating is way over the line of PED's. Way way over the line.

This may sound stupid but my first introduction to a bicycle with a small motor and battery was in Japan. Maybe around 2005. My mother in-law had one. And she gave me the key to the lock so I go make a trip to the grocery store. Showed me the two gear levels and operation buttons and I took off. I told my ex wife when I got back to the house.....I should take one of these to the TDF fan areas on a mountain and ride next to the pro's. That motor was larger and had more battery capacity than the one we have seen for a pro set up. But it was extremely easy to take off on hills and a bit dangerous.

Here we are today with the realization that we will have to question what we have seen in these past years with respect to pro cycling. What a shame.
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
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Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

pastronef said:
...
I dont say it's our fault or anyone's. I took a look on twitter and fukc-no questions about BMC beating those Sky special wheels in the 2015 TT.
they told me I am grasping at straws. I know that, I am so pro-Sky to "fight" :p the anti-Sky. it will be fun until it lasts.
fair enough, and I totally agree with you and Semper Fidelis on this one, of course
 
Jul 5, 2009
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Re: Re:

Semper Fidelis said:
samhocking said:
King Boonen said:
Tom the Engine said:
King Boonen said:
Apparently the wheels work by magic. Or, at least, that's about as likely following Varjas' description:

"Magnets are hidden inside the rim of the wheel. When battery powered coils in the wheel are activated, it creates a magnetic field which propels the magnets forward spinning the wheel faster".
Maybe I got it wrong, but as I understood they're not talking about these magic magnetic wheels in this story about the 2015 TdF with the "increased" weights of the Sky TTT bikes. They are referring to a "normal" rear-hub motor.

From the transcript:

Stefano Varjas told us that in addition to the motors in the bike frames, he’s designed a motor that can be hidden inside the hub of the back wheel seen here in a video he gave us.

Kathy LeMond: Stefano had said, “Weigh the wheels. You’ll find the wheels. The wheels are in the peloton.”

According to Varjas the enhanced wheels weigh about 800 grams—or 1.7 pounds more than normal wheels.
We're talking about two different things here, I'm talking about the wheels in the overtime video. These are the same wheels samhocking is talking about, the ones shown with the cut-outs and plastic bobbins.
You're talking about the wheel in that incredibly blurry, impossible to see video where the hub looks several times the size of a normal hub (although it's impossible to tell)? The one he decided not to let CBS try out or even show to them?
Yes, i'm talking about the rims in terms of using this in the mountains or road stages. The hub obviously would only work if built into a disc wheel at the scale shown in the blurry video to hide it behind the disc of the wheel itself.

Also, Unless i'm mistaken on what the electromagnetic wheel is and how it works, it's simply a brushless motor. i.e. an inside out traditional motor where you put the permanent magnets on the rotor (inside rim) and you move the electromagnets to the stator (inside frame).
You are correct on the "how it works".

I think we all have seen these wheels in the TDF since around 2014 or maybe 15. My opinion.
It would be shocking to think that only Varjas is building motors and that he is at the forefront of wheel engineering... The technology is not complicated, there is nothing that requires a lab for R&D. All you would need is a mechanical engineer, an electrical engineer, and somebody willing to travel to China for prototyping. I'm convinced a small team with a modest budget could have a well and truly hidden hub motor with less than two years' effort.

John Swanson
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
2
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Re: Moto-fraud: first rider caught

Semper Fidelis said:
...
This may sound stupid but my first introduction to a bicycle with a small motor and battery was in Japan. Maybe around 2005. My mother in-law had one. And she gave me the key to the lock so I go make a trip to the grocery store. Showed me the two gear levels and operation buttons and I took off. I told my ex wife when I got back to the house.....I should take one of these to the TDF fan areas on a mountain and ride next to the pro's. That motor was larger and had more battery capacity than the one we have seen for a pro set up. But it was extremely easy to take off on hills and a bit dangerous.
Good anecdote.
Did she try to climb the Muur with it? :D
 
Oct 16, 2010
19,912
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Re: Re:

ScienceIsCool said:
...
It would be shocking to think that only Varjas is building motors and that he is at the forefront of wheel engineering... The technology is not complicated, there is nothing that requires a lab for R&D. All you would need is a mechanical engineer, an electrical engineer, and somebody willing to travel to China for prototyping. I'm convinced a small team with a modest budget could have a well and truly hidden hub motor with less than two years' effort.

John Swanson
this times 10.
 

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