Motor doping thread

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

As it is an induction magnet, does that mean it starts to generate power when you spin the wheel? Because that's what they did.

The induction in an induction motor is for induced magnetic field in the material of the motor--so, there doesn't have to be any static magnetic field, the magnetic field can exist only when the motor is running.
(technically induced current, but that's a detail)

So I feel like that might not answer your question, I'll try again

You can have a motor with no permanent magnets at all. You have coils of wire around the outside. The spinning bit is just a chunk of metal that responds to the electro-magnetic field created by the coils. You use electronics to change the field of the coils in just the right way to make the spinning action work.

The sensor they are using could be 'inducing' a magnetic field itself though.. The sensor could output some kind of pulsed strong electromagnetic field, and then monitor for the relaxation of the field.. Almost like an MRI?

Thanks that answers my question

 

[May0maniac]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

As it is an induction magnet, does that mean it starts to generate power when you spin the wheel? Because that's what they did.

The induction in an induction motor is for induced magnetic field in the material of the motor--so, there doesn't have to be any static magnetic field, the magnetic field can exist only when the motor is running.
(technically induced current, but that's a detail)

So I feel like that might not answer your question, I'll try again

You can have a motor with no permanent magnets at all. You have coils of wire around the outside. The spinning bit is just a chunk of metal that responds to the electro-magnetic field created by the coils. You use electronics to change the field of the coils in just the right way to make the spinning action work.

The sensor they are using could be 'inducing' a magnetic field itself though.. The sensor could output some kind of pulsed strong electromagnetic field, and then monitor for the relaxation of the field.. Almost like an MRI?

That's what I thought, a sensor that is able to induce a megnetic field would probably be the best way to detect an motor in a bike.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

As it is an induction magnet, does that mean it starts to generate power when you spin the wheel? Because that's what they did.

The induction in an induction motor is for induced magnetic field in the material of the motor--so, there doesn't have to be any static magnetic field, the magnetic field can exist only when the motor is running.
(technically induced current, but that's a detail)

So I feel like that might not answer your question, I'll try again

You can have a motor with no permanent magnets at all. You have coils of wire around the outside. The spinning bit is just a chunk of metal that responds to the electro-magnetic field created by the coils. You use electronics to change the field of the coils in just the right way to make the spinning action work.

The sensor they are using could be 'inducing' a magnetic field itself though.. The sensor could output some kind of pulsed strong electromagnetic field, and then monitor for the relaxation of the field.. Almost like an MRI?

That's what I thought, a sensor that is able to induce a megnetic field would probably be the best way to detect an motor in a bike.

But a field can be induced in any current carrying material. Anything metallic, in other words. Also, I doubt it would be something that would fit into or attach to a tablet. No, I think they're using the internal sensor of a tablet (magneto-resistive, not hall effect like I said earlier) and sniffing for magnets. Looks high tech. It's quick. It's cheap. Nobody is going to question it too hard. Besides, wouldn't a lot of the actuators in the electronic shifting systems trigger the sensor? I'm thinking this is either all a bit of theater or something hasty that hasn't been scrutinized by people with the appropriate technical background.

John Swanson

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re:

When Femke was younger she was riding a Bianchi cavaria. It looks exactly the same as bike nr 1 except for the downtube.
http://www.italiaanseracefietsen.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/bcc23.jpg
http://www.tomliberman.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/femke-van-den-dreissche-min.jpg
http://demuur.nu/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/unnamed-7.jpg

We might be the only ones still talking about the minutiae of her case in the midst of a wider discussion of motorization, but it seems to me increasingly likely that the statement from the UCI that the confiscated bike of Femke's was not the one she rode in the Worlds is incorrect. I thought that the fat downtube "bike 1" may have been a modification of the earlier white bike that had been identified but not seen at all this season but it looks like you may be onto something with the earlier Bianchi.

It seems now that, given what you've pointed out about the pits in the race, the only way the UCI's statement can fit with the rest of the facts is if there is only one engine and it had been in bike 1 recently (Hoogerheide, for example), but after suspicions were raised about it it was moved to bike 2. This would then require from the coverage of the race, that she had got a second set of wheels for bike 2 almost identical to those on bike 3. Given that it seems fairly set that Femke liked to do the whole race on one bike, in which case keeping bike 3 in the pits (as the one we don't think has ever been a motorized one) fits logically, it then would require two leaps of faith. The first seems unlikely, but if the first holds the second would be possible. Firstly, it would mean that they were aware of the suspicion of them both using just one bike and having that suspect downtube, and therefore had aimed to make wholesale tactical changes in moving the engine to another bike and changing onto it mid-race. A change in the bikes being used at this point may also increase suspicion, and so sourcing new wheels to match bike 2 to bike 3 so that she was starting the race on the same bike as recent races and finishing on what looked to the casual observer like the same bike as she'd had as a spare at the last few races may help allay those suspicions.

This would enable what I had originally hypothesised in order to try to fit the UCI's story around the visual evidence - that is, that bike 2 (motorized) was in the pits and had been seized so that when bike 1 broke she had to DNF, so bike 3 was fetched from the truck for her - to still be possible, but the amount of leaps of faith being needed to produce a storyline that fits is now starting to approach the amount of leaps of faith needed to believe the van den Driessche family's own explanation.

 

[jyl]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

I'm just confused. Why is the UCI checking all (!) bikes at a French 2.1 race with mostly (Pro)Conti teams at the start, but not at the Tour of Qatar, which has many WT teams and some of the biggest riders?

And I hope they're not actually using a tablet's hall effect sensor to detect permanent magnets... They do realize that *induction* motors don't have magnets, right? It's right there in the name. If it ain't running, there's nothing to detect.

John Swanson

Magnetometer will certainly find brushless DC motors. Vivax system uses a BLDC. http://www.vivax-assist.com/global/pdf/bedienungsanleitungen/Bedienungsanleitung_E_vivax.pdf Not sure what Typhoon uses, but the tablet apparently will detect its systems, as Typhoon supplied components to UCI for testing of detection methods). Whichever system Femke was using, the UCI did found it. The current "non-hidden" bike motor systems I have looked at also use BLDC motors, since it is more straightforward than an AC induction motor, no need for variable frequency inverter. Copenhagen Wheel does, for example.

I guess now that UCI is using its tablet scanner, people will start developing hidden drives using AC induction motors with no or almost no ferrous components. Eventually UCI may have to start using other instruments to do the initial "screening" check.

 

[Teddy Boom]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

Looks high tech. It's quick. It's cheap. Nobody is going to question it too hard. Besides, wouldn't a lot of the actuators in the electronic shifting systems trigger the sensor? I'm thinking this is either all a bit of theater or something hasty that hasn't been scrutinized by people with the appropriate technical background.

I won't argue with that, it is the UCI we're talking about here after all

 

[Random Direction]

Speaking as a former regulator who found that a whole class of non cycling equipment was not performing as it should, for transparency the UCI should have its detection device certified and tested by a 3rd party. Wholly independent is best, but Kimmage and Lemond would work. Anything but is simple fluff - and a repetition of 'trust us', which really means the chosen ones can get away with it and the pro continue and eastern Europeans can't.

 

[jyl]

Maybe UCI should try using handheld metal detectors. There are some which are "pin pointers", that would probably be able to detect even a small amount of metal (ferrous or non-ferrous) in a seat tube or chain stay, without reacting to metal components a couple inches away.

 

[Farcanal]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

I'm just confused. Why is the UCI checking all (!) bikes at a French 2.1 race with mostly (Pro)Conti teams at the start, but not at the Tour of Qatar, which has many WT teams and some of the biggest riders?

And I hope they're not actually using a tablet's hall effect sensor to detect permanent magnets... They do realize that *induction* motors don't have magnets, right? It's right there in the name. If it ain't running, there's nothing to detect.

John Swanson

Magnetometer will certainly find brushless DC motors. Vivax system uses a BLDC. http://www.vivax-assist.com/global/pdf/bedienungsanleitungen/Bedienungsanleitung_E_vivax.pdf Not sure what Typhoon uses, but the tablet apparently will detect its systems, as Typhoon supplied components to UCI for testing of detection methods). Whichever system Femke was using, the UCI did found it. The current "non-hidden" bike motor systems I have looked at also use BLDC motors, since it is more straightforward than an AC induction motor, no need for variable frequency inverter. Copenhagen Wheel does, for example.

I guess now that UCI is using its tablet scanner, people will start developing hidden drives using AC induction motors with no or almost no ferrous components. Eventually UCI may have to start using other instruments to do the initial "screening" check.

Isn't an induction motor going to be very difficult? A small inverter concealed somewhere and a speed adjustment control required. It will have capacitors that will retain charge when not operating. In my experience they run very hot compared to DC too so detection of both the motor and inverter woukd be easier with thermal/IR imaging.

 

[jyl]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

I'm just confused. Why is the UCI checking all (!) bikes at a French 2.1 race with mostly (Pro)Conti teams at the start, but not at the Tour of Qatar, which has many WT teams and some of the biggest riders?

And I hope they're not actually using a tablet's hall effect sensor to detect permanent magnets... They do realize that *induction* motors don't have magnets, right? It's right there in the name. If it ain't running, there's nothing to detect.

John Swanson

Magnetometer will certainly find brushless DC motors. Vivax system uses a BLDC. http://www.vivax-assist.com/global/pdf/bedienungsanleitungen/Bedienungsanleitung_E_vivax.pdf Not sure what Typhoon uses, but the tablet apparently will detect its systems, as Typhoon supplied components to UCI for testing of detection methods). Whichever system Femke was using, the UCI did found it. The current "non-hidden" bike motor systems I have looked at also use BLDC motors, since it is more straightforward than an AC induction motor, no need for variable frequency inverter. Copenhagen Wheel does, for example.

I guess now that UCI is using its tablet scanner, people will start developing hidden drives using AC induction motors with no or almost no ferrous components. Eventually UCI may have to start using other instruments to do the initial "screening" check.

Isn't an induction motor going to be very difficult? A small inverter concealed somewhere and a speed adjustment control required. It will have capacitors that will retain charge when not operating. In my experience they run very hot compared to DC too so detection of both the motor and inverter woukd be easier with thermal/IR imaging.

Yes, I think induction motors will be more difficult. Also somewhat less efficient and lower power/volume, vs BLDC motors.

There is a reason why BLDC motors are used by Vivax, Typhoon (I think), Copenhagen, etc.

 

[TourOfSardinia]

La Gazzetta is reporting that UCI Tablets were deployed at La Méditerranéen

http://www.gazzetta.it/Ciclismo/12-02-2016/motorini-mediterraneenne-controlli-il-tablet-uci-140643093338.shtml
(italian)
Surprise checks were done on
90 bikes from 6 teams
without finding any motors...

 

[The Carrot]

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/this-electromagnetic-hidden-motor-bike-can-go-100kph-211660#disqus_thread

Here's an electromagnetic wheel system. The frame's been designed around it though.

 

[Cloxxki]

Are these magical tablets an excuse to not take bikes apart anymore?
I want some more double checking to make sure the chosen ones don't get waved by. Actual X-Rays that are filed would be so easy.

 

[Robert21]

Amid all the calls to go easy on 'Femke', basically either because 1) She is a young female, and as a fellow female she is one of my 'in group' or 2) She is a young female, and as a male I would nail her, given the chance, it is good to see that some sense is being spoken.

Already I’ve seen calls to go easy on Van den Driessche, and already I have called BS on that. The suggestion that this was down to bad parenting and crooked coaches might be well intentioned and could be in deference to youth, but it also seems rooted in a belief that women are more easily led astray than men and should thus be held to a lower standard. Women aren’t dumber than men, nor are they smarter.

...at least with drugs, the cheater’s motivation — while still completely inexcusable — is to push their body with whatever means are available. To skip the body altogether and hide a motor in the seat tube is to take a flying leap into the moral abyss while flipping the bird to everyone who has ever cared about cycling.

Van den Driessche has done massive damage. Races and teams will have an even harder time attracting sponsors. Riders will find even fewer races and teams. And those of us who love cycling will face years before popular culture will be able to see our sport as anything more than a joke.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/01/commentary/making-sense-of-cyclings-self-destruction-394311_394311#pQI0yVQdg2yT98SG.99

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Are these magical tablets an excuse to not take bikes apart anymore?
I want some more double checking to make sure the chosen ones don't get waved by. Actual X-Rays that are filed would be so easy.

How does the 'magical tablet' supposedly work?

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mreprogramming.ultimateemfdetector&hl=en

UCI using a free app?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Though it often isn't, doping can be done alone. As is evidenced when you see somebody like Riccò messing up doing transfusions on himself. Given what we've been able to ascertain about the case, it seems pretty clear that Femke's downtube motor is not a solo endeavour. Especially now we know her father does carbon repairs and uses the family's race trailer as his main source of advertising, which makes it highly likely that whoever had the idea for it, he's the one that did the heavy lifting. Even if she is the one that came up with it, somebody should have stopped it before it got to this point. This is one of those rare occasions where the aiders and abetters are in an equal position to take the punishment as the rider themselves. Niels is already banned and by being in Zolder was in contravention of the terms of his ban, which makes him susceptible to a larger ban (I wouldn't be surprised if he's the one that cops the biggest punishment of them for that reason). It seems unlikely that Peter didn't know of the ruse and in fact seems incredibly likely that, regardless of whether or not he came up with the idea (which I and many others suspect), he was integral to the installation of the motor, in which case he needs heavy punishment as well. And at the end of the day, Femke is still the one that was riding the tampered bike, and it's simply less credible than their excuse to suggest that she didn't know about it, so she needs punishing as well. As I said before, I think people's position on her herself may seem a little more sympathetic because of how incredibly unsympathetic Peter has come across. And I think that she knew exactly what she was doing, and she deserves to be called out for it, but I don't think she - or any of them for that matter - were prepared for how massive a deal getting caught would be compared to a more "conventional" cheating incident like doping. And where she's concerned, the fine is more relevant and precedent-setting than the ban, because she's never going to get a sponsor, never going to get respect from fellow racers - even those guzzling PEDs - or fans, and never going to be wanted by teams or race organizers. While the background of cases like Geneviève Jeanson will factor into people's interpretation and it certainly plays a part in how people read the case, I think you're setting too much of your stall out on attributing it to a more general gender issue rather than to the actual characters involved.

While a motor in a bike is a whole new world for cycling cheating, however, in the medium-term, if nobody else is caught, this might not be quite as bad as it may seem for the sport's integrity. While of course it harms people's trust in the sport, the fact still remains that if nobody else is caught in the near future, the only person to have officially committed this sin is a no-name cyclocross espoir on a low budget whose entourage consists of her similarly shady family and a couple of their close friends, and they were caught because the bike's difference from others was obvious enough that other competitors could just look at her bike and see something was up. It will be a lot easier to dismiss as a crazy one-off incident that way.

 

[Robert21]

Re:

I think you're setting too much of your stall out on attributing it to a more general gender issue rather than to the actual characters involved.

I'm not saying it is the only reason why so much sympathy is being given to 'Femke', but I think that anyone who claims that her being a young female (with the emphasis on her being female) is not a significant contributory factor is being either wilfully blind or disingenuous.

As I said, that article in Velonews had it right:

it also seems rooted in a belief that women are more easily led astray than men and should thus be held to a lower standard. Women aren’t dumber than men, nor are they smarter.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Which is why in the sentence prior to the one you quoted above I acknowledged that it does play a role in some people's level of sympathy for her. I just think you're attributing more of it than necessary to that one factor given others (age is another as you acknowledge, the picture painted by the entire background of the story and the various members of the family, the very public fallout compared to most doping busts, and also that the fall has been so severe that previous whipping boys like Riccò are able to get a free shot in on her while she's down). I don't personally think it was her idea, but as the one who ultimately rode the tampered bike she had to have agreed to it - and it's not like she wasn't operating it either so she's got no excuse. She needs to face the consequences, but I also feel sorry for her for the way it's being carried out in front of a much bigger audience than any success would have been and indeed had she been cheating in any other way, feel that other people in the story comes across as far less sympathetic (which is only reinforced by what we've learned about them external to the actual motorbike incident), and resent the opportunistic posturing of names like Cookson, Merckx (himself no angel of course!), Froome and others, dogpiling on the very public shame and disgrace of a veritable nobody as a PR exercise (and I'm sure that somebody will cherry-pick this quote to make it look like it's all about being anti-Froome).

I know you don't like people using the forename, feeling it as perhaps too friendly, (sub?)consciously adding to the sympathetic view of her (would you rather we use the full name every time? In more general cases it is fine, but at least three characters in the narrative have van den Driessche as their surname, limiting its usefulness when discussing the specific case), but there's really no need for the inverted commas. It's not an appellation, it's her name.

 

[Robert21]

Re:

I know you don't like people using the forename, feeling it as perhaps too friendly, (sub?)consciously adding to the sympathetic view of her (would you rather we use the full name every time? In more general cases it is fine, but at least three characters in the narrative have van den Driessche as their surname, limiting its usefulness when discussing the specific case), but there's really no need for the inverted commas. It's not an appellation, it's her name.

Only one Van den Driessche was caught riding a motor bike in a bike race!

Her name is Femke Van den Driessche, and shortening it to 'Femke' is a clear sign of sympathy. By your logic, when discussing the positive tests of Eddy Merckx we should call him Eddy, not Merckx, in case we confused him with his son, and call Wiggins 'Bradley', in case we mistook him for his bike-racing father! Similarly, we should always call David Millar 'David' (according to another thread on here "one of the lowest forms of human life") in case he was confused with Robert Millar, and so on.

Anyhow, glad to see that you agree that the fact she is a young woman does significantly affect some people's attitudes towards Van den Driessche, causing her to to be treated with rather more sympathy than if she were male.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Typing "Femke van den Driessche" every time we want to mention her is pretty cumbersome though. I didn't find "FVDD" very intuitive. I know it does come across more sympathetic to type her first name each time, but then, did you feel the same hypothesis held every time we refer to Lance, or Levi, or Johan, or Floyd, or Hein, or Pat by first names? I mean, there are some pretty vitriolic posts about all of the above which use their forenames. In any case, if I type "Eddy" on a bike racing forum, it's not a stretch to think that most people will think I mean Merckx unless the thread is specifically about a different Eddy. It's not like just saying "Rik" (van Steenbergen or van Looy?). It's not that much of a stretch to think most people will know I mean Wiggins if I say "Brad" or "Bradley", certainly "Sir Brad" or "Sir Bradley" as many posters often use. The Millars are the one case where it is a bit ambiguous, because both were quite high profile.

Why do you have such a bee in your bonnet about people displaying a modicum of sympathy for Femke van den Driessche? Hrotha called you back ages ago for making it a one-issue gender thing. There are more issues at play than just gender. That's just one of them.

 

[jyl]

Re: Re:

Are these magical tablets an excuse to not take bikes apart anymore?
I want some more double checking to make sure the chosen ones don't get waved by. Actual X-Rays that are filed would be so easy.

How does the 'magical tablet' supposedly work?

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.mreprogramming.ultimateemfdetector&hl=en

UCI using a free app?

See viewtopic.php?p=1863229#p1863229

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

I'm just confused. Why is the UCI checking all (!) bikes at a French 2.1 race with mostly (Pro)Conti teams at the start, but not at the Tour of Qatar, which has many WT teams and some of the biggest riders?

And I hope they're not actually using a tablet's hall effect sensor to detect permanent magnets... They do realize that *induction* motors don't have magnets, right? It's right there in the name. If it ain't running, there's nothing to detect.

John Swanson

Magnetometer will certainly find brushless DC motors. Vivax system uses a BLDC. http://www.vivax-assist.com/global/pdf/bedienungsanleitungen/Bedienungsanleitung_E_vivax.pdf Not sure what Typhoon uses, but the tablet apparently will detect its systems, as Typhoon supplied components to UCI for testing of detection methods). Whichever system Femke was using, the UCI did found it. The current "non-hidden" bike motor systems I have looked at also use BLDC motors, since it is more straightforward than an AC induction motor, no need for variable frequency inverter. Copenhagen Wheel does, for example.

I guess now that UCI is using its tablet scanner, people will start developing hidden drives using AC induction motors with no or almost no ferrous components. Eventually UCI may have to start using other instruments to do the initial "screening" check.

Isn't an induction motor going to be very difficult? A small inverter concealed somewhere and a speed adjustment control required. It will have capacitors that will retain charge when not operating. In my experience they run very hot compared to DC too so detection of both the motor and inverter woukd be easier with thermal/IR imaging.

Yes, I think induction motors will be more difficult. Also somewhat less efficient and lower power/volume, vs BLDC motors.

There is a reason why BLDC motors are used by Vivax, Typhoon (I think), Copenhagen, etc.

Right. So what you end up with is a type of stepper motor. The drives for those can be ridiculously simple. I once built a driver for a small motor using a single 74HC240 hex inverter (20-pin chip) and some capacitors.

John Swanson

 

[sniper]

Re:

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/this-electromagnetic-hidden-motor-bike-can-go-100kph-211660#disqus_thread

Here's an electromagnetic wheel system. The frame's been designed around it though.

hardly surprising, but nice to see that the Gazzetta article wasn't a hoax.
Hawkwood, Jyl, gbj123, opinions please.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

It feels like 1995 all over again. People *knew* that EPO was a thing and that it was being used, but just couldn't wrap their heads around the fact that all those fantastic races and acts of "heroism" on the road were tainted by full-on, cynical amounts of blatant cheating.

John Swanson

 

[jyl]

Re: Re:

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/this-electromagnetic-hidden-motor-bike-can-go-100kph-211660#disqus_thread

Here's an electromagnetic wheel system. The frame's been designed around it though.

hardly surprising, but nice to see that the Gazzetta article wasn't a hoax.
Hawkwood, Jyl, gbj123, opinions please.

To the contrary. This prototype e-bike supports what I've been telling you.

Let's deal with the Gazzetta article first. "We asked Leschick what he thought of the previous electromagnetic wheel doping claims, to which he responded . . . It wouldn't work."

Turning to this prototype, look how it is designed.
- It has a seat tube that looks like a fender, covers the rim, and wraps around a quarter of the rear wheel, from seat stay to chain stay. That's because it needs enough angular coverage of the rim, or the drive won't work.
- The entire length of the seat tube/fender is stuffed with many (six sets) large coils (electromagnets), that are placed only a few mm from the rim. That's because the air gap between electromagnet and rim has to be tiny, or the drive won't work.
- The rim is filled with 200 permanent magnets. Even with 90 degrees angular coverage and an air gap of a couple mm, it still needs magnets (not merely steel inserts) in the rim, or the drive won't work.

So this guy has built an e-bike, but that is nothing special. He has not built an undetectable e-bike, that could pass for a standard road bike. Not even close.

And he CAN'T. The large angular coverage, large electromagnets, tiny air gap, and magnet filled rim are not accidents and they are not optional. Go back to my post viewtopic.php?p=1863229#p1863229