Motor doping thread

[blackcat]

Re:

Now why does the part about Varjas showing an early rudimentary version of a motor and admitted it may have been used as early as 1998. He suggested that it best worked with an extremely high cadence. Make me think of a certain high cadence cyclist prominent from 1999?

but that was his chrono. not his other riding. it was not like Froome's climbing.


and for Froome and Lance, look at the previous Vuelta where they both made the podiums. They got on the pdoium and this was their linear progression.


For Froome, see: Wigans.

If Wigans and Cath got light of a motor, it would have come to light. Edison.

Imagine Cath and Cound rematch birkin hermes handbags alliterationz at ten paces.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10

Cath and Cound get it one, no mud or jelly wrestling, this $h!t just got real. If Cath knows F-dawg is using a motor, she goes ballistic like Manny Pacquio if that is how you spell Manny Pacquio's name? Can someone please googles manny pacquio or pacquiao's name for me pls. ta.

 

[Franklin]

Even though I'm as much sceptical as the next poster, currently I cal this whole she-bang with doped wheels utter nonsense.

Battery range will be MINIMAL meaning the wheel be a dead weight most of the time. That's somewhat okay on the flats, but while climbing? Nonsense.

OTOH, motors in cyclo cross are much more understandable considering you use a bike for one round and then go on on a normal bike.

 

[HelmutRoole]

Re: Re:

Because it's not adding anything new. It's based on statements by the same guy who has been fuelling these stories for six years - but still hasn't managed to get any proof.

Of course it should be talked about when there is some new evidence or proof. But this is just rehashing the existing speculations - not adding anything new. A waste of time.

So that they saw the motors with heat detectors is nothing new? Not evidence? This is similar to the TV crew that followed USPS team that dumped used transfusion equipment 100kms away from the team hotel. Fans screamed not proof, not evidence.

This sport is full of people willing to do anything, anything to win.

Well the obvious difference there is that USPS were explicitly named. Why have the journalists not named riders or teams involved? It suggests to me that they don't have that much faith in their own 'evidence'.

Yep. Something don't add up. I mean, why go to all the trouble and then not name names? If you names names the story becomes potentially huge. Or, interview off the record. Find out where the motor came from. Who knew what. Who knows what.

Much more interesting than a "I told you so," piece.

Really, there's nothing new here.

I'm not in agreement that everyone here knows that inferno dope is rife in the peloton.
Example 1: Me
I honestly didn't know, but had my suspicions (i don't need to refer to Spartacus, I'm sure.)
I don't know why you'd write the whole thing off by claiming lazy journalism and nothing to see here.
Doesn't make sense.

No, no. All seriousness, now. I'm saying the journalism, in this case, doesn't add up. Not lazy. Not necessarily. But odd.

And again, all seriousness. I'm not saying there's nothing to see here. I'm saying there's plenty to see here. Who knows? This could be the tip of the iceberg that makes cycling look more stupid than it already is.

Coukd sink the sport.

Anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself. Let's say you're a journalist. If you deliver a story to an editor that demonstrates systemic motor doping, that editor is going to run it. Going to, absolutley... unless there's something wrong with it.

Look, consider the situation. Again, let's say you're a journalist. Do you tell your production crew, "Let's shoot this so no one knows the identity of the riders."

Of course you don't do that. You do the opposite of that. You tell them to shoot so everyone knows the identity of the riders.

As a journalist, you know who the riders are. So does your crew.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Nothing new except for the fact they had some kind of heat sensor thingie that made the frames look like a towering inferno.
I agree with a poster a while back who said one of the reasons they chose not to identify the addresses of the towering infernos was due to legalities.
I have not seen the documentary, but do you really think they made this up and went to air without consulting lawyers and those 'in the know"?

Why couldn't they name the riders whose cassettes were glowing, and interview them for an explanation? Surely it's not illegal to say xxx rider's bike had a glowing cassette on the heat camera. Give the rider a chance to respond and then maybe look into the issue further.

We don't even know what components the bikes had - perhaps they were trying out new parts, or perhaps they have the di2 battery in a different location than normal.

All we have at the moment is a two second video of a cassette on a couple of bikes producing more heat than the others in the peloton. But it's completely devoid of context - what happened in the minute leading up to it - and they have failed to even ask the riders for a possible explanation.

It's reasonably interesting - but doesn't go anywheren ear far enough to add much to the existing suspicions imo. Most of the programme was basically just introducing the different possiblities of mechanical doping to the casual viewer.

 

[WillemS]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

Just skimmed through the video, as I can't understand French. I don't think the thermal footage is that impressive; as said, it's devoid of context and the heat scale they use really exaggerates the shot as well. (The scale is relative to maximum measured value.)

At the end, they point at a bottom bracket that is slightly hotter than the rest of the bike, but if you look at the scale (9.5 to 24.2 °C), the measured temperature of the thing is ~11 °C. Not exactly blazing hot. (The 24.2 °C belongs to the rider's body.) Now, any sort of increased temperature is, of course, suspicious, but if you compare the "suspicious" hotspots with "normal" riders, the difference in temperature is in the range of ~1.5 °C, not exactly shocking.

Remember that the actual coloring scheme is completely arbitrary, so don't be fooled by bright colors. If you manually set the scale to 9°C - 11 °C everything will light up 1000 watts lamp in a dark night.

I'd hoped for something better, but I think this is just crappy sensational journalism. A couple of dubious shots, with no context or any type of supporting evidence, as far as I can tell. (But if you speak French, feel free to correct me.)

 

[Bavarianrider]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

Late 90s seems like a reach.
However, given all the indications of the last few years, there's zero doubt that mechanical doping has been used for a couple of years no in the peleton. There's no doubt at all.
Given the fact that you can detect it rather easily with a heat gun should stopp the thing now, though.

 

[arthurvandelay]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

Late 90s seems like a reach.
However, given all the indications of the last few years, there's zero doubt that mechanical doping has been used for a couple of years no in the peleton. There's no doubt at all.
Given the fact that you can detect it rather easily with a heat gun should stopp the thing now, though.

Good post Bavarianrider. Now for me this begs the question of why we have yet to see a youtube video of an enthusiast with one of the known motor assist systems showing an infrared sequence of their own motorized bike then comparing it to a conventional bike on the same day, same ambient temp conditons, similar frame specs, etc. It would seem (to me at least) to be a trivial project that could demonstrate the (potential) validity of the journalistic effort we have been seeing. Without having a control effort to compare it to I just don't know what to say about the TV program. Anyone who would install such an expensive system would probably love to show it off!

While typing this I just realized that some wealthy narcissistic wannabe racer (the kind who would cheat on Strava KOM's while doping out of competition) probably have already started using such systems in Gran Fondos ! I am too poor and fat to do this myself. My own PR's on climbs in my area are ranked pretty low!!!

 

[Eyeballs Out]

UCI said

We have looked at thermal imaging, x-ray and ultrasonic testing but by far the most cost effective, reliable and accurate method has proved to be magnetic resonance testing using software we have created in partnership with a company of specialist developers. The scanning is done with a tablet and enables an operator to test the frame and wheels of a bike in less than a minute.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci...talian-media-mechanical-doping-investigation/

I wonder how they are "proving" cost effectiveness, reliability and accuracy given that they haven't found anything yet (except for a cyclocrosser who had been called out in public prior to any UCI involvement by some of her peers?). Perhaps they mean that knew there wouldn't be anything to find (like if all the teams knew they were to be tested perhaps) and the testing indeed found nothing . That would be accuracy of sorts I suppose.

 

[zigmeister]

ROFL....Cookson, see the "Cookson is worse for cycling" thread for that subject alone.

The UCI, saying the cost factor to not use heat/thermal devices? They are $1000/each. What, they can't spend $30K for 30 of these things to take around the big races???

That is a drop in the bucket, even it they purchased 50 of them at $50K, nothing. That equals about 5 bikes on a team.

 

[Master50]

flir has camera add on for smart phones. Maybe $400. can't say if they have great enough resolution but they are a lot cheaper than $30K for very sophisticated thermal cameras now. Cameras that were 15 grand five years ago are under $6000 now.
A guy dressed like a photographer could take pictures from a motorcycle.

 

[Hawkwood]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

Just skimmed through the video, as I can't understand French. I don't think the thermal footage is that impressive; as said, it's devoid of context and the heat scale they use really exaggerates the shot as well. (The scale is relevant to maximum measured value.)

At the end, they point at a bottom bracket that is slightly hotter than the rest of the bike, but if you look at the scale (9.5 to 24.2 °C), the measured temperature of the thing is ~11 °C. Not exactly blazing hot. (The 24.2 °C belongs to the rider's body.) Now, any sort of increased temperature is, of course, suspicious, but if you compare the "suspicious" hotspots with "normal" riders, the difference in temperature is in the range of ~1.5 °C, not exactly shocking.

Remember that the actual coloring scheme is completely arbitrary, so don't be fooled by bright colors. If you manually set the scale to 9°C - 11 °C everything will light up 1000 watts lamp in a dark night.

I'd hoped for something better, but I think this is just crappy sensational journalism. A couple of dubious shots, with no context or any type of supporting evidence, as far as I can tell. (But if you speak French, feel free to correct me.)

There might be a number of reasons why the bottom bracket might be slightly warmer than the rest of the bike, I guess the power going through the bracket must produce a small amount, plus would air flow cool the rest of the frame more? I'm not a scientist so feel free to produce some proper theories.

 

[thehog]

Re:

flir has camera add on for smart phones. Maybe $400. can't say if they have great enough resolution but they are a lot cheaper than $30K for very sophisticated thermal cameras now. Cameras that were 15 grand five years ago are under $6000 now.
A guy dressed like a photographer could take pictures from a motorcycle.

They are very effective the FLIR models, they use a dual camera, one to record the actual image, the other for thermal heat. You do need to be about 10 meters within the subject though.

I rented the older ones a couple of years ago. Now they are so much better. Angry French fans can follow Dawgs bike up the climbs

 

[Farcanal]

Re: Re:

flir has camera add on for smart phones. Maybe $400. can't say if they have great enough resolution but they are a lot cheaper than $30K for very sophisticated thermal cameras now. Cameras that were 15 grand five years ago are under $6000 now.
A guy dressed like a photographer could take pictures from a motorcycle.

They are very effective the FLIR models, they use a dual camera, one to record the actual image, the other for thermal heat. You do need to be about 10 meters within the subject though.

I rented the older ones a couple of years ago. Now they are so much better. Angry French fans can follow Dawgs bike up the climbs

Are there any frenchmen who can get up up hills that fast?

 

[WillemS]

Re:

....so journos had a 'hot' story from strade bianche....but waited weeks to screen?

Mark L

Do you know what also bugs me? I don't think they ever show the actual temperature measure of the "hotspot", they just point it out. If they would actually point the cursor at the hotspot, you can read the measured temperature of that pixel, but they never seem to do that and they never compare the values of a "hot" bike to a "cold" bike, they just show colors that are heavily influenced by the scale setting. I think that's probably because a difference of 1.5 °C doesn't really add to the sensation value of the show.

Now, they could record measurements of all recorded bikes and then see if there are oddities in the distribution, outliers and the like, but, hey, why use actual numbers and statistics when you're trying to measure and show something? Better use arbitrary colors.

 

[jmdirt]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

Just skimmed through the video, as I can't understand French. I don't think the thermal footage is that impressive; as said, it's devoid of context and the heat scale they use really exaggerates the shot as well. (The scale is relative to maximum measured value.)

At the end, they point at a bottom bracket that is slightly hotter than the rest of the bike, but if you look at the scale (9.5 to 24.2 °C), the measured temperature of the thing is ~11 °C. Not exactly blazing hot. (The 24.2 °C belongs to the rider's body.) Now, any sort of increased temperature is, of course, suspicious, but if you compare the "suspicious" hotspots with "normal" riders, the difference in temperature is in the range of ~1.5 °C, not exactly shocking.

Remember that the actual coloring scheme is completely arbitrary, so don't be fooled by bright colors. If you manually set the scale to 9°C - 11 °C everything will light up 1000 watts lamp in a dark night.

I'd hoped for something better, but I think this is just crappy sensational journalism. A couple of dubious shots, with no context or any type of supporting evidence, as far as I can tell. (But if you speak French, feel free to correct me.)

This is a good review Will. Plus, the footage they used in their release was of their own test rider. If you've got a smoking gun, why show a different gun?

 

[TourOfSardinia]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mechanical-doping-used-in-strade-bianche-and-coppi-e-bartali-claims-investigation/ reports:
Varjas explained that the latest version of the hidden motors are just five centimetres long, of light weight but able to produce an adjustable amount of power of up to 250 watts. They can drive the bottom bracket or the cassette and are described as ‘perfect for athletes with high pedal cadence.”

So
Froome or Contador?
you
choose.

 

[saganftw]

they should start making water coolers for those motors and also cover them in lead so superman doesnt see through

 

[Escarabajo]

I saw the video but cannot understand French. I was not impressed by it either, but maybe an expert can deduct more specific results from what they show. From what I saw I was very limited to draw any conclusions. And TBH the best proof for motors in bikes are still the Cancellara and the Hesjedal videos which they keep showing as part of the package. There are suspicious actions in the peloton that can be addressed by the UCI, like the bike changes.

Anyway let's wait for better results.

P.D.: If somebody showed me a positive test result for epo for a cyclist I would not be able to understand it either without a proper explanation.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mechanical-doping-used-in-strade-bianche-and-coppi-e-bartali-claims-investigation/ reports:
Varjas explained that the latest version of the hidden motors are just five centimetres long, of light weight but able to produce an adjustable amount of power of up to 250 watts. They can drive the bottom bracket or the cassette and are described as ‘perfect for athletes with high pedal cadence.”

So
Froome or Contador?
you
choose.

I don't think Contador has a perfect high pedal cadence. At least not nowadays.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

Just skimmed through the video, as I can't understand French. I don't think the thermal footage is that impressive; as said, it's devoid of context and the heat scale they use really exaggerates the shot as well. (The scale is relevant to maximum measured value.)

At the end, they point at a bottom bracket that is slightly hotter than the rest of the bike, but if you look at the scale (9.5 to 24.2 °C), the measured temperature of the thing is ~11 °C. Not exactly blazing hot. (The 24.2 °C belongs to the rider's body.) Now, any sort of increased temperature is, of course, suspicious, but if you compare the "suspicious" hotspots with "normal" riders, the difference in temperature is in the range of ~1.5 °C, not exactly shocking.

Remember that the actual coloring scheme is completely arbitrary, so don't be fooled by bright colors. If you manually set the scale to 9°C - 11 °C everything will light up 1000 watts lamp in a dark night.

I'd hoped for something better, but I think this is just crappy sensational journalism. A couple of dubious shots, with no context or any type of supporting evidence, as far as I can tell. (But if you speak French, feel free to correct me.)

There might be a number of reasons why the bottom bracket might be slightly warmer than the rest of the bike, I guess the power going through the bracket must produce a small amount, plus would air flow cool the rest of the frame more? I'm not a scientist so feel free to produce some proper theories.

I think they mentioned in the documentary that the heat from the bottom braket could have been from the bearings.

Also the most incriminating images - where the whole down tube was glowing - were from some Gran Fondo, not Strade Bianche.

 

[the delgados]

Re: Re:

Because it's not adding anything new. It's based on statements by the same guy who has been fuelling these stories for six years - but still hasn't managed to get any proof.

Of course it should be talked about when there is some new evidence or proof. But this is just rehashing the existing speculations - not adding anything new. A waste of time.[/quote]

So that they saw the motors with heat detectors is nothing new? Not evidence? This is similar to the TV crew that followed USPS team that dumped used transfusion equipment 100kms away from the team hotel. Fans screamed not proof, not evidence.

This sport is full of people willing to do anything, anything to win.[/quote]

Well the obvious difference there is that USPS were explicitly named. Why have the journalists not named riders or teams involved? It suggests to me that they don't have that much faith in their own 'evidence'.[/quote]Yep. Something don't add up. I mean, why go to all the trouble and then not name names? If you names names the story becomes potentially huge. Or, interview off the record. Find out where the motor came from. Who knew what. Who knows what.

Much more interesting than a "I told you so," piece.

Really, there's nothing new here.[/quote]

I'm not in agreement that everyone here knows that inferno dope is rife in the peloton.
Example 1: Me
I honestly didn't know, but had my suspicions (i don't need to refer to Spartacus, I'm sure.)
I don't know why you'd write the whole thing off by claiming lazy journalism and nothing to see here.
Doesn't make sense.[/quote]No, no. All seriousness, now. I'm saying the journalism, in this case, doesn't add up. Not lazy. Not necessarily. But odd.

And again, all seriousness. I'm not saying there's nothing to see here. I'm saying there's plenty to see here. Who knows? This could be the tip of the iceberg that makes cycling look more stupid than it already is.

Coukd sink the sport.

Anyway, I'm getting ahead of myself. Let's say you're a journalist. If you deliver a story to an editor that demonstrates systemic motor doping, that editor is going to run it. Going to, absolutley... unless there's something wrong with it.

Look, consider the situation. Again, let's say you're a journalist. Do you tell your production crew, "Let's shoot this so no one knows the identity of the riders."

Of course you don't do that. You do the opposite of that. You tell them to shoot so everyone knows the identity of the riders.

As a journalist, you know who the riders are. So does your crew.[/quote]

But you don't know for sure; hence the approach they took.
No doubt the story went up the vetting ladder before going to air.
I get what you're saying--really, I do. But I'm guessing that they were trying to get to the meat of the matter, rather than doing an expose of one, two or ten individual riders.
It's UCI's job to go from there.

 

[the delgados]

Sorry for garbling the post above.
I never received training on a Commadore 64, never mind simple modern day internet functions.
Apologies.

 

[Bolder]

Has anyone ever actually SEEN the motor or whatever it was at the infamous cyclocross race? (Apologies if a link has been posted).

I actually am intrigued by how you might go about capturing energy to provide a boost of some sort. I'm guessing that you'd be working with the bb -- a small motor could take the place of the PowerTap or whatever ever data capture method is being used now. I agree that a one-shot rechargeable battery wouldn't help much, so perhaps there's resistance that could be converted into stored energy. Hub or rim "motors" or batteries don't make sense to me.

Given that, though, how much of an aid would you need, and when would it be most effective? I guess it doesn't matter, but I'm thinking that the flats would be the best spot -- no suspicion, easy to soft-pedal, and even 5% savings in rider energy expended would pay off at the end.

 

[delgado]

Re: Re:

Now why does the part about Varjas showing an early rudimentary version of a motor and admitted it may have been used as early as 1998. He suggested that it best worked with an extremely high cadence. Make me think of a certain high cadence cyclist prominent from 1999?

but that was his chrono. not his other riding. it was not like Froome's climbing.

Not true, remember when LA chased one of the Otxoa brothers up Hautacam, that was some crazy spinning right there, and it created a huge brouhaha at the time.

 

[doperhopper]

Re:

they should start making water coolers for those motors and also cover them in lead so superman doesnt see through

or they'll empoy few shamans to pray for some rain (should work for spring classics but summer tours will be problematic)