Motor doping thread

[the delgados]

Re:

Has anyone ever actually SEEN the motor or whatever it was at the infamous cyclocross race? (Apologies if a link has been posted).

I actually am intrigued by how you might go about capturing energy to provide a boost of some sort. I'm guessing that you'd be working with the bb -- a small motor could take the place of the PowerTap or whatever ever data capture method is being used now. I agree that a one-shot rechargeable battery wouldn't help much, so perhaps there's resistance that could be converted into stored energy. Hub or rim "motors" or batteries don't make sense to me.

Given that, though, how much of an aid would you need, and when would it be most effective? I guess it doesn't matter, but I'm thinking that the flats would be the best spot -- no suspicion, easy to soft-pedal, and even 5% savings in rider energy expended would pay off at the end.

Refer to Armstrong's crashes while riding for Radioshack during his Tour de France revival. Guy crashed at the bottom of a col mere minutes before tackling another. He wasn't used to the vroom vroom acceleration and hit the deck like a cat 4 rider entering his first race.
I kid.

 

[jmdirt]

Re:

Has anyone ever actually SEEN the motor or whatever it was at the infamous cyclocross race? (Apologies if a link has been posted).

I actually am intrigued by how you might go about capturing energy to provide a boost of some sort. I'm guessing that you'd be working with the bb -- a small motor could take the place of the PowerTap or whatever ever data capture method is being used now. I agree that a one-shot rechargeable battery wouldn't help much, so perhaps there's resistance that could be converted into stored energy. Hub or rim "motors" or batteries don't make sense to me.

Given that, though, how much of an aid would you need, and when would it be most effective? I guess it doesn't matter, but I'm thinking that the flats would be the best spot -- no suspicion, easy to soft-pedal, and even 5% savings in rider energy expended would pay off at the end.

Either CN or VN had some pics and a quick spin test a while back, and another rag built up two identical bikes except one had a small motor. The motor made the guy faster, but he was still mortal. I'll see if I can find a link for you...

EDIT: This isn't the one I was looking for but:
http://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/gear/article/what-is-mechanical-doping-44811/

http://www.bikeradar.com/us/news/article/eurobike-turbo-boost-motor-and-charge-road-rigs-18520/

http://cyclingtips.com/2015/04/hidden-motors-for-road-bikes-exist-heres-how-they-work/
(watch the videos)

 

[jilbiker]

Re: Re:

Now why does the part about Varjas showing an early rudimentary version of a motor and admitted it may have been used as early as 1998. He suggested that it best worked with an extremely high cadence. Make me think of a certain high cadence cyclist prominent from 1999?

but that was his chrono. not his other riding. it was not like Froome's climbing.

Not true, remember when LA chased one of the Otxoa brothers up Hautacam, that was some crazy spinning right there, and it created a huge brouhaha at the time.

I remember Tyler Hamilton said in his book he felt LA had something extra, he could not place his finger on it but it was something he was not telling them. They had the same numbers in training or Tyler was even better sometimes. yet in competition he seem to race on another level. they were taking the same juice. LA was juicing pre-1999 so what was new? Perhaps it was this mechanical doping. The high cadence of LA started in the post 1999. I also think about Froome, with his sudden high cadence and the acceleration we see in his bike, its like it zooms, totally not normal. And an ordinary domestique becomes a master climber. It sounds like the mechanical doping to me. The qualities are high cadence, sudden bursts. We saw that last year on the first MTF of TDF, Froome was suddenly flying away. With all eyes now on mechanical doping, I wonder if we will see the alien acceleration of Froome at this TDF?

 

[jilbiker]

Re: Re:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mechanical-doping-used-in-strade-bianche-and-coppi-e-bartali-claims-investigation/ reports:
Varjas explained that the latest version of the hidden motors are just five centimetres long, of light weight but able to produce an adjustable amount of power of up to 250 watts. They can drive the bottom bracket or the cassette and are described as ‘perfect for athletes with high pedal cadence.”

So
Froome or Contador?
you
choose.

I don't think Contador has a perfect high pedal cadence. At least not nowadays.

Contador has never operated on high cadence. I always wondered why. I guess everyone has their style, Pantani was not high cadence

 

[Cloxxki]

Re: Re:

I remember Tyler Hamilton said in his book he felt LA had something extra, he could not place his finger on it but it was something he was not telling them.

I thought the concensus was a limited stash of HemAssist. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haemoglobin-based_oxygen_carriers#HemAssist http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/experts-call-armstrong-hemassist-connection-unlikely/ There are plenty of threads on it, so please do not reply futher here

On topic, I doubt anyway there was the technical logistics to cover up such a thing? So much attention for Lance's bikes... Why bother doping if you can get away with mechanical fraud? After his first win he could easily commission a top notch system surely.

Any news on Femke's brother who violated the terms of his his 2-year EPO ban by being a soigneur at worlds, involving in machical fraug no less? Surely the kid can never race again? If he gets to race again, can that even be considered to be anything but a cover-up? So blatant. If Femke goes down for a ban, the brother cannot ride again.

 

[veganrob]

Re: Re:

Now why does the part about Varjas showing an early rudimentary version of a motor and admitted it may have been used as early as 1998. He suggested that it best worked with an extremely high cadence. Make me think of a certain high cadence cyclist prominent from 1999?

but that was his chrono. not his other riding. it was not like Froome's climbing.

Not true, remember when LA chased one of the Otxoa brothers up Hautacam, that was some crazy spinning right there, and it created a huge brouhaha at the time.

I remember Tyler Hamilton said in his book he felt LA had something extra, he could not place his finger on it but it was something he was not telling them. They had the same numbers in training or Tyler was even better sometimes. yet in competition he seem to race on another level. they were taking the same juice. LA was juicing pre-1999 so what was new? Perhaps it was this mechanical doping. The high cadence of LA started in the post 1999. I also think about Froome, with his sudden high cadence and the acceleration we see in his bike, its like it zooms, totally not normal. And an ordinary domestique becomes a master climber. It sounds like the mechanical doping to me. The qualities are high cadence, sudden bursts. We saw that last year on the first MTF of TDF, Froome was suddenly flying away. With all eyes now on mechanical doping, I wonder if we will see the alien acceleration of Froome at this TDF?

It would also explain how Froome's HR did not hardly go yp at all when he was spinning away from everyone.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Any news on Femke's brother who violated the terms of his his 2-year EPO ban by being a soigneur at worlds, involving in machical fraug no less? Surely the kid can never race again? If he gets to race again, can that even be considered to be anything but a cover-up? So blatant. If Femke goes down for a ban, the brother cannot ride again.

for me the Van den Drescher's, femke's family alliterationz, they get a wide berth cos they are involved in some parakeet cross border smuggling operations for sino aphrodisiacs. You dont mess with $hit like this, cos it got real.

so femke van den drescher, love the name btw, she is good by me

 

[arthurvandelay]

Re: Re:

[/quote]

N[/quote]

I remember Tyler Hamilton said in his book he felt LA had something extra, he could not place his finger on it but it was something he was not telling them. They had the same numbers in training or Tyler was even better sometimes. yet in competition he seem to race on another level. they were taking the same juice. LA was juicing pre-1999 so what was new? Perhaps it was this mechanical doping. The high cadence of LA started in the post 1999. I also think about Froome, with his sudden high cadence and the acceleration we see in his bike, its like it zooms, totally not normal. And an ordinary domestique becomes a master climber. It sounds like the mechanical doping to me. The qualities are high cadence, sudden bursts. We saw that last year on the first MTF of TDF, Froome was suddenly flying away. With all eyes now on mechanical doping, I wonder if we will see the alien acceleration of Froome at this TDF?[/quote]

Anecdotally I remember reading that in the pressroom during the first or second of Lances' TDF wins that he did one of his usual high cadence ridiculous attacks to bursts of derisive laughter from the assembled French journos in attendance watching the absurd spectacle unfold. When quizzed by the American journos as to why they were laughing aloud they said: "Because he is not even being subtle about his cheating". I too wonder if he had some mech assistance now, not just EPO.

 

[chuckmicD]

After the Hesjedal video...I didn't need more evidence that motors were in use.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I too wonder if he had some mech assistance now, not just EPO.

but his numbers pale to the best of Pantani and Riis.

Ferrari could concoct these numbers of his blood parameters whilst staying below some arbitrary acceptable limit of the UCI, allowing Armstrong to hit competitive P/W numbers to the 90s Pantani Riis Ullrich

 

[jens_attacks]

They had engines too

Epo was just a smoke screen...

 

[WillemS]

Re: Mechanical doping: first rider caught

The great Armstrong revival: Is every thread going to turn into an Armstrong thread again?

 

[sniper]

Some pretty dark clouds gathering over Froomey's Ventoux 2013:

https://twitter.com/Digger_forum/status/722352288942137344

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re:

Some pretty dark clouds gathering over Froomey's Ventoux 2013:

https://twitter.com/Digger_forum/status/722352288942137344

As the writer of that text says, "in my opinion".

Froome, like anyone else, is innocent until proven guilty.

 

[saganftw]

i read in newspapers today that one of the suspects is Contador,the suspicion came from one of his mechanics toying with back wheel while constantly looking at his watch (bluetooth perhaps?) like he was adjusting settings or some other wizardry

 

[sniper]

Re:

i read in newspapers today that one of the suspects is Contador,the suspicion came from one of his mechanics toying with back wheel while constantly looking at his watch (bluetooth perhaps?) like he was adjusting settings or some other wizardry

he's been something of a suspect ever since that l'Equipe article from 2014(15?) on motors focusing a.o. on Contador's bikeswitches in the Giro 2013 (I think). That thing with the watches you mention is new to me.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re:

i read in newspapers today that one of the suspects is Contador,the suspicion came from one of his mechanics toying with back wheel while constantly looking at his watch (bluetooth perhaps?) like he was adjusting settings or some other wizardry

The mechanic first spins the pedals and the wheel, but honestly he could be checking anything. Then he fiddles with the band of his watch, the only suspicious thing is that he sometimes glances at the rear wheel while doing so. I think it would be weird to hide the bluetooth switch in the band of the watch rather than the watch itself, but alright.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

i read in newspapers today that one of the suspects is Contador,the suspicion came from one of his mechanics toying with back wheel while constantly looking at his watch (bluetooth perhaps?) like he was adjusting settings or some other wizardry

The mechanic first spins the pedals and the wheel, but honestly he could be checking anything. Then he fiddles with the band of his watch, the only suspicious thing is that he sometimes glances at the rear wheel while doing so. I think it would be weird to hide the bluetooth switch in the band of the watch rather than the watch itself, but alright.

do you by any chance have a link to that footage?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

i read in newspapers today that one of the suspects is Contador,the suspicion came from one of his mechanics toying with back wheel while constantly looking at his watch (bluetooth perhaps?) like he was adjusting settings or some other wizardry

he's been something of a suspect ever since that l'Equipe article from 2014(15?) on motors focusing a.o. on Contador's bikeswitches in the Giro 2013 (I think). That thing with the watches you mention is new to me.

Ever since his bike changes in the 2011 Giro he's been the target of especially l'equipe. I also remember there being some noise about it during the 2013 Tour, but I seem to remember the general suspicion was that he was cheating the bike weight limit - Froome wrote about it in Mein Climb as well, although he accused Contador of just about anything except being a genetically modified extraterrestrial so not sure we can give that much credit.
To me it is sort of suspicious that he started this bike change tactic after joining Riis' team (Cancellara 2010) but it could be innocent as well.
Last year l'Equipe started moaning again, this time about the "dodgy wheel change" with Basso on the Mortirolo stage (he didn't ride the 2013 Giro by the way).

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

i read in newspapers today that one of the suspects is Contador,the suspicion came from one of his mechanics toying with back wheel while constantly looking at his watch (bluetooth perhaps?) like he was adjusting settings or some other wizardry

The mechanic first spins the pedals and the wheel, but honestly he could be checking anything. Then he fiddles with the band of his watch, the only suspicious thing is that he sometimes glances at the rear wheel while doing so. I think it would be weird to hide the bluetooth switch in the band of the watch rather than the watch itself, but alright.

do you by any chance have a link to that footage?

It's in the tv program just before the halfway mark IIRC. It's basically this video:
https://youtu.be/twzXs6lxSOs
But this one doesn't include the watch fiddling
Sorry if it is a dodgy link, I am on my phone

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

...
Ever since his bike changes in the 2011 Giro he's been the target of especially l'equipe. I also remember there being some noise about it during the 2013 Tour, but I seem to remember the general suspicion was that he was cheating the bike weight limit - Froome wrote about it in Mein Climb as well, although he accused Contador of just about anything except being a genetically modified extraterrestrial so not sure we can give that much credit.
To me it is sort of suspicious that he started this bike change tactic after joining Riis' team (Cancellara 2010) but it could be innocent as well.
Last year l'Equipe started moaning again, this time about the "dodgy wheel change" with Basso on the Mortirolo stage (he didn't ride the 2013 Giro by the way).

thanks, good summary.
Seems it's gonna be nothing but rumors re: Alberto.

Froome's 2013 Ventoux, otoh.
I've never seen anything quite as ridiculous as Froome jumping away from Alberto, uphill, in-saddle, in the curve, desperately trying to adjust his cadence to the incredible pace of his bike.
And we have the heartrate numbers which seem to be in line with motor use.
Would be good to know who leaked those, and with what purpose.

edit: thanks for the link!

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Some pretty dark clouds gathering over Froomey's Ventoux 2013:

https://twitter.com/Digger_forum/status/722352288942137344

As the writer of that text says, "in my opinion".

Froome, like anyone else, is innocent until proven guilty.

Sorry but those days are long gone. No in sport is innocent.

Constant scandals from the top of federations to the small athletes that few have heard of getting busted for doping is strong, strong evidence that sport is corrupt top to bottom. Athletes who refuse to get with the program are gone quick time.

 

[Rollthedice]

Thing with mechanical doping is that if not caught on the spot you will NEVER be caught.

Chris Vrrrooome:

"I know my results will stand the test of time, that 10, 15 years down the line people won't say, 'Ah, so that was his secret'. There isn't a secret."

"But I feel there is now a need for winners of the Tour de France to go 10, 20 years and not be stripped of their yellow jerseys and their trophies, and that's where myself and Team Sky are at now."

 

[Benotti69]

TeamGB and their special frames and special wheels all now points to mechanical doping.

 

[Maxiton]

Re:

Thing with mechanical doping is that if not caught on the spot you will NEVER be caught.

Chris Vrrrooome:

"I know my results will stand the test of time, that 10, 15 years down the line people won't say, 'Ah, so that was his secret'. There isn't a secret."

"But I feel there is now a need for winners of the Tour de France to go 10, 20 years and not be stripped of their yellow jerseys and their trophies, and that's where myself and Team Sky are at now."

Some enterprising journalist or fan or non-fan is going to show up roadside with a thermal imaging gun/camera. Then the joke is over.