Mountain Team Time Trial

[The Hitch]

So this is a proposal for a rule change, not a parcours suggestion. There is no allowance within the rules of the sport as they stand for a stage timed like this.

... But it would be cool to watch.

Yep this is the point. We would like to see it.

 

[Anonymous]

So effectively an individual mountain time trial but with teams setting off together so that either, domestiques can support the team leader until they can no longer keep up, or as well, domestiques could support the weaker riders to help them out, or riders can just go it alone. Probably need to kick off with a 5k or so flat section prior to the climb.

Teams with more than one strong climber may benefit as they can ride the climb together, some teams may choose to use the domestiques to push really hard early before dropping off, some teams may just go it alone with 9 seperate riders.

Spectacle for the fans on the mountainside would be great, imagine basso and nibali chasing down andy and frank, or vino and contador working together (last year) etc. Or a domestique killing themslves dragging someone like wiggins as far as they can up the mountain before leaving him to go it alone for the final few kilometres. Would be a real opportunity for some domestiques to shine.

 

[mortand]

They did this as an (interesting) experiment in the Tour Méditerranéen 2004, finishing at the top of Mont Faron. I can't recall the reactions from the riders and DS's - the stage was on the day after Marco Pantani died, so it wasn't really a headlining story at the time - but the idea is kind of intriguing.

They started with 20 k flat before the ascent of Faron - each rider got his own time. CSC thrashed the opposition that day, with Jaksche and Basso in front and Voigt in third.

I see no reason some creative race organiser couldn't bring back an event like this, but - as mentioned - I can't remember the reactions from the involved parties. Maybe it wasn't a success.

Cyclingnews' report is available here

 

[Anonymous]

They did this as an (interesting) experiment in the Tour Méditerranéen 2004, finishing at the top of Mont Faron. I can't recall the reactions from the riders and DS's - the stage was on the day after Marco Pantani died, so it wasn't really a headlining story at the time - but the idea is kind of intriguing.

They started with 20 k flat before the ascent of Faron - each rider got his own time. CSC thrashed the opposition that day, with Jaksche and Basso in front and Voigt in third.

I see no reason some creative race organiser couldn't bring back an event like this, but - as mentioned - I can't remember the reactions from the involved parties. Maybe it wasn't a success.

Cyclingnews' report is available here

wow, either an amazing find, or amazingly remembered. thanks for taking the time to dig that out.

 

[The Hitch]

time limit might be a problem though.

 

[Roland Rat]

The idea of a mountain TTT is intriguing... Maybe change to a 4 man rule though?

I'd like to see a mountain ITT where they go up one side and down the other, see who has the full skill set. We rarely see the GC contenders descending in anger any more since it became about controlling the race to the final climb, whereas one of my enduring images of Indurain was when he went on the gravel out of a corner and nearly went over the edge on a descent

 

[mortand]

No problem. I remember it because it was such an 'outrageous' idea, and I'm actually surprised noone's tried to do a thing like this since. It shouldn't be impossible. But, as The Hitch says, one should probably think about the time limit, and not race up the Galibier or so.

 

[Anonymous]

Its actually the sort of thing that a smaller race like the Tour of Britain could do to really give the race a point of intrest.

edit: both hayman and calzati rode that day, might ask them on facebook what they thought of it.
edit 2: Hayman finished virtually last, i cant imagine his ideas on the race are positive.

 

[lancaster]

@roland rat best tv program ever

 

[Winterfold]

Roland Rat has made the idea considerably better, and fairer.

Ingsve I take your point to some extent eg Leakygas in this years Giro might have completely dominated - but I can also see scenarios where instead of eg Fugslang setting an insane pace for 15 mins then grovelling up , a team would have to set a consistent average pace for 4/5 riders.

If as RR suggests there is then downhill then it becomes fairer as skilful rouleurs and sprinters can get time back - it could be very exciting.

I guess we are just asking for more technical and interesting TTT courses...

 

[The Hitch]

Its actually the sort of thing that a smaller race like the Tour of Britain could do to really give the race a point of intrest.

Not really. Britain doesnt have any Hors Catergory climbs (least according to the Eurosport commentary team who always say that Cat 2 is the hardest youll find here.

But yes another race of the same level as tob which has mountains can try it.

 

[The Hitch]

@roland rat best tv program ever

Good to see he likes it now. I remember during the Tour, one of the sprint stages, RR asked as if its worth continuing and about 10 of us tried to convince him that it was. We then procceeded to spend the entire stage discussing the show.

Best thread ever (that one was)

 

[Ferminal]

So effectively an individual mountain time trial but with teams setting off together so that either, domestiques can support the team leader until they can no longer keep up, or as well, domestiques could support the weaker riders to help them out, or riders can just go it alone. Probably need to kick off with a 5k or so flat section prior to the climb.

Teams with more than one strong climber may benefit as they can ride the climb together, some teams may choose to use the domestiques to push really hard early before dropping off, some teams may just go it alone with 9 seperate riders.

Spectacle for the fans on the mountainside would be great, imagine basso and nibali chasing down andy and frank, or vino and contador working together (last year) etc. Or a domestique killing themslves dragging someone like wiggins as far as they can up the mountain before leaving him to go it alone for the final few kilometres. Would be a real opportunity for some domestiques to shine.

I don't like the idea, but this way I think it could work.

 

[The Sheep]

Not really. Britain doesnt have any Hors Catergory climbs (least according to the Eurosport commentary team who always say that Cat 2 is the hardest youll find here.

But yes another race of the same level as tob which has mountains can try it.

Scotland doesn't have anything good?

 

[Timmy-loves-Rabo]

I prefer a shortish (15km maybe) TTT with a lump (maybe1-2km, nothing to steep) in the middle than a Prologue.

 

[Ferminal]

I prefer a shortish (15km maybe) TTT with a lump (maybe1-2km, nothing to steep) in the middle than a Prologue.

Yeh, if you're going to have a prologue it may as well be a TTT, rather than having a TTT in the first week in addition to the prologue.

My ideal time trial structure would be:

Prologue/Stage 1: TTT
Middle of the Tour: Mountain ITT
Final week: Long 45-60km ITT

You could also throw a hilly/technical 20-30km ITT in there as well.

 

[Michele]

And why not? I dont know if its possible, but say why

Pardon, my answer come 5 pages too late.
Anyway short answer; you'd see in most of teams with 1-2 guys pulling and waiting all others team mates suffering like hell.
While during a flat TTT the other team mates can hang on, in a very hilly one it would be almost impossible and I dont see it very appealing to tv.

 

[personal]

Hm.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=291139&postcount=44

I think TTT with mountaintop finish would work fine on shorter climbs.

This is team sport isn't it?

 

[delbified]

the MTTT is a great idea. i can see a lot of dodgy meat finding its way into france though.

 

[hoolaparara]

So how about we combined thoughts and open the vuelta next year with a mountain team prologue doing the last few kilometres of this years climb to Bola del Munda.

 

[Sydney21]

Seriously cool idea. I'd be lying if I said I hadnt thought of it before. I havn't read the entire thread but I think a good idea if the time third climber in each team was used then just about every team could compete even ones that are quite lead out heavey.

The profile should be around 25-30 km's long and start completely flat for 10 or so km's followed by a gradual increase in gradient peaking around 10-12%. That would mean that the non climbers in the team would have to keep the important guys out of the wind for as long as they could.

That would be an awesomely tactical race to watch.

 

[nvpacchi]

I like the idea, instead of using overall times on the stage how about teams are awarded bonus seconds on how they place (only 3 riders have to cross for time to count)?

1st place team receives 90 sec of bonus time
2nd place 75 sec
3rd place 60 sec
4th place 50 sec
5th place 40 sec.... all the way down to 5 seconds

I think the 1978 TDF did a crazy long 160 km TTT, but overall times were not used. 1st place team got 5 minutes of bonus time, second 4 minutes, all the way down as such.

With a setup like this, it still is an incentive for teams to race hard, but you will not punish a GC contender as much if you he is the only solid climber on the squad.

 

[Rocksteady]

I like the idea, instead of using overall times on the stage how about teams are awarded bonus seconds on how they place (only 3 riders have to cross for time to count)?

1st place team receives 90 sec of bonus time
2nd place 75 sec
3rd place 60 sec
4th place 50 sec
5th place 40 sec.... all the way down to 5 seconds

I think the 1978 TDF did a crazy long 160 km TTT, but overall times were not used. 1st place team got 5 minutes of bonus time, second 4 minutes, all the way down as such.

With a setup like this, it still is an incentive for teams to race hard, but you will not punish a GC contender as much if you he is the only solid climber on the squad.

Umm... 90 seconds would be a big loss for most GC guys. I say, everyone gets their own time. Times differences (depending on the length) would be minimal and it would be great to watch. The CSC domination from 04 is a little worrying though. We don't want that.

 

[nvpacchi]

Umm... 90 seconds would be a big loss for most GC guys. I say, everyone gets their own time. Times differences (depending on the length) would be minimal and it would be great to watch. The CSC domination from 04 is a little worrying though. We don't want that.

Hopefully GC contenders are not going to be on teams finishing 14th and 15th on the day. If they are (like Evans and BMC for the Giro) then it will force teams to select their riders more carefully. BMC could have brought a stronger climbing team to the Giro, they just chose not to.

For example if BMC has Evans, Santambrogio, and Morabito finishing 8th on the day behind a winning Liquigas team with Basso, Szmyd, and Kiserlovski, then BMC receives 10 bonus seconds and Liquigas 90. That loss in time is 1 second less than what BMC lost in the 32 km TTT this past Giro.

In the end 90 seconds is not too much compared to what some teams lose in a super long flat TTT. And if a team has above average climbers to compliment the GC rider, then the time lost to the winning team will be less than a minute.

 

[MrContador]

Anybody remember the TTT up Mont Faron in Tour Méditerranéen a couple of years back? I think it's a good idea, could create some interesting racing.