Movistar

[Arnout]

appearance of freshness is just an indicator of effort expended. there's nothing inherently suspicious about not putting in a huge amount of effort.. except when you won or were close to winning. In such a case, what's suspicious is how much better you apparently are compared to the rest.

This suggests that we could measure the suspiciousness of how fresh a rider looks at the finish line with the seconds a rider would've had to be quicker whilst looking tired that is equally suspicious!

Thought experiment: How many seconds do we have to take away from quintana's TT such that if he had looked fresh, we would find his performance as suspicious as we found his actual performance?

10 seconds for each % of freshness.

 

[Ventoux Boar]

appearance of freshness is just an indicator of effort expended. there's nothing inherently suspicious about not putting in a huge amount of effort.. except when you won or were close to winning. In such a case, what's suspicious is how much better you apparently are compared to the rest.

This suggests that we could measure the suspiciousness of how fresh a rider looks at the finish line with the seconds a rider would've had to be quicker whilst looking tired that is equally suspicious!

Thought experiment: How many seconds do we have to take away from quintana's TT such that if he had looked fresh, we would find his performance as suspicious as we found his actual performance?

If you're willing to lie to a worldwide audience, risking national disgrace, I doubt you'd be beyond faking fatigue. It appears you're in need of some new memes. Why did the old ones stop working?

 

[classicomano]

Give me a break guys, this was the first time ever ive seen Quintana coming to the finish line with an epic pain face. Normally the guy doesnt even flinch, he didnt look fresh AT ALL.

 

[kingjr]

Give me a break guys, this was the first time ever ive seen Quintana coming to the finish line with an epic pain face. Normally the guy doesnt even flinch, he didnt look fresh AT ALL.

It looked like that cause he didn't wear glasses for a change.

 

[classicomano]

It looked like that cause he didn't wear glasses for a change.

Whatever the reason, he had a death mask on when he approached the finish line. Fresh would be the last word I'd use to describe his state at that time

 

[kingjr]

Whatever the reason, he had a death mask on when he approached the finish line. Fresh would be the last word I'd use to describe his state at that time

I agree. The thing is I believe he almost always has a death mask on a MTF, but usually one doesn't notice it behind the glasses.

 

[GuyIncognito]

You people are all just jealous because the teams you like aren't scientifically advanced like Movistar.
Modern methods are worth much more than doping that is why we win!




Was my Sky fan impression good?

 

[The Hitch]

Well if not being breathing hard equates to being doped and breathing hard can also equate to being doped. How exactly is a clean athlete supposed to look?

I didn't say breathing hard or not Is suspicious. I don't think it is.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Ahem, do you know which rider put in one of the greatest Tour performances ever on the very final day to take the overall title and smashed the opposition completely, take a wild guess. If performing well in the third week of a GT is proof of doping, then we need to re-evaluate a few people.

Again with the Kimmage bashing? Leave the guy alone TeamSkyFan.

You people are all just jealous because the teams you like aren't scientifically advanced like Movistar.
Modern methods are worth much more than doping that is why we win!




Was my Sky fan impression good?

Yes, it was pretty good, I hope pcmg76 and gooner will see...

Guess not.

 

[pmcg76]

Again with the Kimmage bashing? Leave the guy alone TeamSkyFan.

Yes, it was pretty good, I hope pcmg76 and gooner will see...

Guess not.

How did you get Kimmage from what I wrote and where on earth do you get this idea I am a SKY fan. It really is pathetic how people like you have to invent stuff in an effort to insult others.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

How did you get Kimmage from what I wrote and where on earth do you get this idea I am a SKY fan. It really is pathetic how people like you have to invent stuff in an effort to insult others.

Oh, sorry, you meant LeMond with that post? Well, it was a 50 - 50 percent chance I got it right, either it is LeMond bashing or Kimmage bashing from you so stop your drama queen act please. Everyone knows your dig by now.

And I will name someone a Sky Fan whenever I want, but please, enough off topic babble: great cleans ride by Nairito the Columbian Condor today!

 

[pmcg76]

Oh, sorry, you meant LeMond with that post? Well, it was a 50 - 50 percent chance I got it right, either it is LeMond bashing or Kimmage bashing from you so stop your drama queen act please. Everyone knows your dig by now.

And I will name someone a Sky Fan whenever I want, but please, enough off topic babble: great cleans ride by Nairito the Columbian Condor today!

So I am a SKY fan but am defending Quintana, got it Your level of cluelessness is a bottomless pit I see.

I am not LeMond bashing either, once again I am pointing out the hypocrisy of people using performances to cast aspersions on people when the exact same type of performances were produced by LeMond. Don't worry, I wouldn't expect you to work that out.

I am just wondering how Quintana winning a MTT by a second is so different from LeMond destroying the Tour in the final TT in 89. Sceptic claimed Quintana should not be preforming so strongly this late in the race but I guess LeMond was ok to do so.

 

[IzzyStradlin]

I am just wondering how Quintana winning a MTT by a second is so different from LeMond destroying the Tour in the final TT in 89. Sceptic claimed Quintana should not be preforming so strongly this late in the race but I guess LeMond was ok to do so.

Climbing TTs are easier to compare with some objectivity. Flat TTs you can only measure against competition that day.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Hi Ryo meet math.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?p=1464190#post1464190

On a climb like Alpe d'Huez a rider weighting 68kg will have to do 5.96 W/kg to climb it in 40', whereas a rider like Domenico weighting 51kg will have to do 6.35 W/kg.

don;t try to outsmarten me when you don't know what this Is about. they already calculated the whole wattages and calculated them back to everyone being 70 kg. so quintana pushes 5.99 watt and is 51 kg he pushes less watt in total than for instanc erolland who is 71 kg, but if both had the same time they would both ride the exact same watt per kg weight

 

[Netserk]

don;t try to outsmarten me when you don't know what this Is about. they already calculated the whole wattages and calculated them back to everyone being 70 kg. so quintana pushes 5.99 watt and is 51 kg he pushes less watt in total than for instanc erolland who is 71 kg, but if both had the same time they would both ride the exact same watt per kg weight

I don't even have to try to 'outsmarten' you

You clearly don't have a clue, so let me dumb it down to kindergarten level for you.

Quintana rode the climb in 55:03. Based on the grade and the VAM a W/kg was calculated (Ferrari's formula). That calculated W/kg is only based on the time of the ride, not the weight of the rider. When calculating with the weight of the rider [CPL], a heavy rider would in reality do less than 5.99 and a lighter rider (like Quintana) would do more than 5.99 as you can see here:

vetooo's numbers and rider weight of 53kg gives Quintana 6.33 W/kg [CPL]

I know the weight probably is wrong, but it doesn't really matter, as long as it's way under 70kg my point stands (with 59kg it's 6.19 W/kg, still far more than Ferrari's number).

The 5.99 is for a fictional rider doing that time, the 6.33 is for Quintana. I know you won't admit you are wrong, but at least I hope this will shut you up.

Remember this post (which was correct) was the one you disagreed with:

That's assuming a weight of 70 kg. Since Quintana is much lighter, the actual W/kg is higher.

 

[gooner]

I didn't say breathing hard or not Is suspicious. I don't think it is.

That's exactly what I said.

 

[gooner]

Nice deflection. Your lack of logic is exposed and you accuse me of moving the goalposts (read the discussion to see that this is false).

No deflection, you moved the discussion away from analysing the validity of judging riders crossing the line tired, not me.

If you want to talk about climbing times, so be it but that's judging an actual important detail of a performance. Crossing the line tired or fresh as a daisy isn't.

I think it's obvious that if you are looking fresh as a daisy after winning a 1h MTT then it's suspicious. A clean athlete should look tired.

So was Roche clean in 1987?

Why not?

If according to you someone who considers lack of tiredness proof of doping must consider tiredeness proof of being clean (as you outline below), why then for someone who considers a positive test proof of doping shoudn't a lack of a positive constitute proof of being clean????

That is without doubt one of the worst comparisons I have heard on this forum. A positive test which proves doping is used here in this debate on the same scale as a rider crossing the line tired. You do know one is flaky suspicion and the other is definitive proof.

Errr, yes you can.

You bizzarely seem to think that DW suggests that not being tired is an effect of doping and that whatsmore, all dopers will therefore always be not tired.

He is not. He is arguing that not being tired suggests Quintana didn't go too hard, meaning his performance was even more outstanding than the time suggests as he was doing it while not going full out. Hence he doesn't believe it.

Under no circumstances is he suggesting that dopers aren't capable of being tired, and that therefore exhaustion is a perfect science for identifying dopers.

That's something you came up with yourself, that has no basis in anything DW said.

Give over.

Yeah, DW just posted about Quintana crossing the line not panting out of breath on a doping forum for not to have suspicion of him doping. Don't insult people's intelligence.

You think it's somehow alright to judge this selectively. If a guy crosses the line as if he came off a casual ride it's OK to judge, but if a guy crosses the line shattered it means nothing whatsoever and shouldn't judged similarly. That means you have an inconsistent approach to looking at this and can't be taking seriously on it.

Either way, I don't pay much if any credence to this in looking at a rider if he's clean or not. It's means little and I have been consistent on that. On the other hand if you say you don't believe a rider based on a the way he crosses the line, you can't say then on the other end of the scale that a tired rider on his last legs means nothing. You're flip flopping on it.

Pretty clear what I'm saying.

Its very simple. and it doesn't surprise me that the 2 people who can't grasp it happen to be sky believers.

Again, what has Sky got to do with this? We're discussing Quintana and your sniping little rubbish Sky "believer" comment won't work with me in trying to shut me down from the discussion.

It's a nice clinic tactic that I see FGL has introduced here also.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

You bizzarely seem to think that DW suggests that not being tired is an effect of doping and that whatsmore, all dopers will therefore always be not tired.

He is not. He is arguing that not being tired suggests Quintana didn't go too hard, meaning his performance was even more outstanding than the time suggests as he was doing it while not going full out. Hence he doesn't believe it.

Under no circumstances is he suggesting that dopers aren't capable of being tired, and that therefore exhaustion is a perfect science for identifying dopers.

That's something you came up with yourself, that has no basis in anything DW said.

Its very simple. and it doesn't surprise me that the 2 people who can't grasp it happen to be sky believers.

I completely missed this post (CN forum software cookies never work for me in maintaining last read post in a thread ) and then saw it quoted.

Thank you, Hitch, for understanding what I was saying. It was exactly as you have written.


I watched his stomach very carefully, and granted with all the media and handler, it was difficult to see. But then he leant into the car window and had a chat. Yes, he coughed, I get that, but consider the cloud had moved in and it was probably cold - so cold air on the lungs / oesophagus is going to make you cough after an hour regardless of how hard you went. And he went hard, no question. 6W/kg is no laughing matter.

But to my mind he didn't look stressed when he finished. He wasn't at or had not been at his limit.

My point only was his supposed 6W/kg hour effort was not, IMO, his max.

 

[ebandit]

puzzled

what I fail to understand is how with hardly any racing in his legs quintana showed up at the giro as clear favourite

then despite crashing/needing anti-biotics looks as though he is going to run out comfortable winner of an exceptionally tough tour

will other teams expect their top riders to disappear for a couple of months to prepare for targetted tours?

Mark L

 

[Dazed and Confused]

what I fail to understand is how with hardly any racing in his legs quintana showed up at the giro as clear favourite

then despite crashing/needing anti-biotics looks as though he is going to run out comfortable winner of an exceptionally tough tour

will other teams expect their top riders to disappear for a couple of months to prepare for targetted tours?

Mark L

Quintana's performance reminds me of the recent EPO/Blood doping regime with superior form after the 3rd rest day. But of course the current peloton is clean, so it must be something else.

Anyway the new model is still predictable and borderline dull.

 

[Fagniniwins]

what I fail to understand is how with hardly any racing in his legs quintana showed up at the giro as clear favourite

then despite crashing/needing anti-biotics looks as though he is going to run out comfortable winner of an exceptionally tough tour

will other teams expect their top riders to disappear for a couple of months to prepare for targetted tours?

Mark L

Quintana was so cold on the Gavia that he could hardly feed himself. Injured, ill, and undernourished; why shouldn't he put time into the field on Val Martello, or anywhere else?

Besides, TT change of helmet = 30 watts in cooling effects.

To be fair, he hides in the bunch and rides away from people on the final climb while defending in the time trials. Maybe training solo works as well for the anti-Wiggo style of racing as it does for the real Wiggo.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I don't even have to try to 'outsmarten' you

You clearly don't have a clue, so let me dumb it down to kindergarten level for you.

Quintana rode the climb in 55:03. Based on the grade and the VAM a W/kg was calculated (Ferrari's formula). That calculated W/kg is only based on the time of the ride, not the weight of the rider. When calculating with the weight of the rider [CPL], a heavy rider would in reality do less than 5.99 and a lighter rider (like Quintana) would do more than 5.99 as you can see here:


I know the weight probably is wrong, but it doesn't really matter, as long as it's way under 70kg my point stands (with 59kg it's 6.19 W/kg, still far more than Ferrari's number).

The 5.99 is for a fictional rider doing that time, the 6.33 is for Quintana. I know you won't admit you are wrong, but at least I hope this will shut you up.

Remember this post (which was correct) was the one you disagreed with:

thats ridiculus if they calculate it like that and completley menaingless. do you know first split time of quintana and average gradient of monte grappa? I calcvulate myself

 

[Netserk]

thats ridiculus if they calculate it like that and completley menaingless. do you know first split time of quintana and average gradient of monte grappa? I calcvulate myself

https://mobile.twitter.com/ammattipyoraily/status/472503344502935552

 

[senatorrick]

I've been reading you guys for years, I don't post much because I'm just an uneducated son of Italian immigrants, but I am smart enuff to know that they are all dirty! The sooner you except that the sooner you will enjoy watching the show! Yes just like American football it's a business there entertainers first athletes second, quit fighting and live in piece! Love Guillo

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

I've been reading you guys for years, I don't post much because I'm just an uneducated son of Italian immigrants, but I am smart enuff to know that they are all dirty! The sooner you except that the sooner you will enjoy watching the show! Yes just like American football it's a business there entertainers first athletes second, quit fighting and live in piece! Love Guillo

if they are dirty then they sure as hell suck now. just compare to first half of 2000s and 90s and compare difference in racing.